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Defeating Australia in a test match played on a fast, bouncy track -- We are ready to win multiple test series outside Asia now


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2 hours ago, express bowling said:

We have won a test match against Australia on a fast, bouncy track, which was more like an Australian pitch.

 

We defeated New Zealand on a green Eden Gardens pitch

 

We won 2 tests in the West indies, along with the series, for the first time ever.

 

We have 4 settled fast bowlers now in Shami, Umesh, Ishant and Bhuvi and a new  pacer-all-rounder in Pandya.

 

There are good young fast bowlers waiting in the wings .... in Aniket C, Thampi, Nathu, Aaron, Shardul, Navdeep, Khejroliya etc.

 

Most of our batters are good at tackling pace and bounce now.... in Kohli, Rahane, Vijay, Rahul, Rohit.  Even Pujara can play a lot of deliveries on bouncy tracks.

 

We have found a new wrist spinner, Kuldeep,  who can succeed outside Asia.   Jadeja  has become much better too.

 

Main thing is.... our bowlers have been able to take 20 wickets most of the times we have played on non-spinning tracks.

 

 

 

I think we are ready to win test series outside Asia.

 

Please discuss

 

 

 

 

Not so fast. 

This surface cracked- yes,it stayed fast and bouncy- but it cracked and cracks helped the spinners. in Aus or RSA, pitch won't crack. 

Umesh was getting expensive in the firs innings- overseas, where he will be expected to carry the load now, alongside Shami and perhaps another pacer, is a whole different story. 


Yes, things are looking at the up right now. But, its only one match

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Multiple series wins sounds like a stretch but we can surely win some matches abroad with this team.

 

Lot will depend on Pujara. And Kohli if we are talking about England. We only have one batsman who is capable of doing well in Eng/SA/Aus/NZ i.e. Rahane.

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1 hour ago, Sidhoni said:

Multiple series wins sounds like a stretch but we can surely win some matches abroad with this team.

 

Lot will depend on Pujara. And Kohli if we are talking about England. We only have one batsman who is capable of doing well in Eng/SA/Aus/NZ i.e. Rahane.

For sure with DHONI GONE N THE LOOSING MENTALITY, things look brighter, no offense

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Multiple series wins sounds like a stretch but we can surely win some matches abroad with this team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lot will depend on Pujara. And Kohli if we are talking about England. We only have one batsman who is capable of doing well in Eng/SA/Aus/NZ i.e. Rahane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ohh bhai, y so negative??? Unlike our old days now we have some quality in our pace department which can give opposition a nightmare,and from what I have seen,our batsmen are batter in handling pace and bounce then spin now!! its high time now we should start winning outside asia , don't be so negative like popatlal

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

I dont think length has anything to do with their problems. Good Length is good length irrespective of the country. You hit that 6-8 meter mark and you will be successful everywhere. This talk about different length in different countries is highly overrated. What they lacked is stamina to bowl a lot of overs with intensity and consistency without a lot of help from spinners. They bowled a lot of boundary balls, become wayward as the work load increased and lack of reverse in SA, England, NZ, Auz didnt help too.

Don't agree with you here. And according to me, you couldn't be any more wrong on this. Length is whats been the problem for a long time. The quicker bowlers of the past, especially the likes of Javagal Srinath were hard done because of the length. The problem was, the domestic pitches used to be dead, and the moment they would pitch the ball up, it would become half volley and they would get belted. It changed their psychy to the extent they  quit bowling full and hence suffered big time when they would travel abroad. 

 

In countries like England, Aus, SA and NZ, the fuller a fast bowler pitches, the more chances of swing. But Indian bowlers didnt know how to do it because of the domestic pitches. And that's why they suffered. 

This was the reason why Srinath suffered for almost his entire career and only by the fag end of his career did he start believing in himself and started bowling fuller length. Then, during his fag end , he had become almost unplayable and as threatening as Mcgrath. 

 

So yes, length did have a major role to play in the performance of Indian fast bowlers of the past.

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52 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Don't agree with you here. And according to me, you couldn't be any more wrong on this. Length is whats been the problem for a long time. The quicker bowlers of the past, especially the likes of Javagal Srinath were hard done because of the length. The problem was, the domestic pitches used to be dead, and the moment they would pitch the ball up, it would become half volley and they would get belted. It changed their psychy to the extent they  quit bowling full and hence suffered big time when they would travel abroad. 

 

In countries like England, Aus, SA and NZ, the fuller a fast bowler pitches, the more chances of swing. But Indian bowlers didnt know how to do it because of the domestic pitches. And that's why they suffered. 

This was the reason why Srinath suffered for almost his entire career and only by the fag end of his career did he start believing in himself and started bowling fuller length. Then, during his fag end , he had become almost unplayable and as threatening as Mcgrath. 

 

So yes, length did have a major role to play in the performance of Indian fast bowlers of the past.

You did not understand my post. You cannot bowl full half volley or short irrespective of the continent you play. Only in England at times you can bowl full half volley length but even there, it will be dispatched for boundaries more often than not. The right length is same everywhere and that is corridor of uncertainty, hitting that 6-8 meter mark on the pitch.

Edited by rkt.india
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We still depend on the spin twins to take the bulk of the wickets and do the bulk of the bowling.  Yes, the pace bowlers have stepped up and are better than what he had.  In quality, pace and most crucially, in depth.  But its a very different ask when we go overseas and spin will not be bowling 70% plus of the overs.   That will have to be learnt.  

 

But no ambiguity about it, Team has shown they now have the raw material in place, perhaps more so than we've had since I started watching Indian Cricket.  

 

But a flattish track that offers zero help to spinners, meaning we can't play both Ash and Jaddu - we would need Pandya to really step up his game.  Or Bhuvi to play as 4th seamer and bat like he did in England.  

 

Lot of hope and anticipation though.  

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2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

You did not understand my post. You cannot bowl full half volley or short irrespective of the continent you play. Only in England at times you can bowl full half volley length but even there, it will be dispatched for boundaries more often than not. The right length is same everywhere and that is corridor of uncertainty, hitting that 6-8 meter mark on the pitch.

What I am trying to say is, on Indian pitches of the 80's and 90's, it wasnt possible to bowl full length. hence, 98% of the bowlers used to bowl short. And that's why they used to suffer while travelling abroad. its pretty simple, the way you practise is the way you perform!

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3 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

Another piece of prematured ejaculation. 

 

Great win. But nothing to go bullish on future abroad. 

Another pusillanimous puking of faux elite snobbery.  There's plenty to be bullish about.  Umesh's maturation as a test match bowler.  Jadeja's massive strides as a batsman, KL Rahul's internalization of putting a price on his wicket and learning to value consistency over commanding batting, Bhuvi's return to fitness and full-on swinging form coupled with increased pace.  The list is quite long.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, rkt.india said:

I dont think length has anything to do with their problems. Good Length is good length irrespective of the country. You hit that 6-8 meter mark and you will be successful everywhere. This talk about different length in different countries is highly overrated. What they lacked is stamina to bowl a lot of overs with intensity and consistency without a lot of help from spinners. They bowled a lot of boundary balls, become wayward as the work load increased and lack of reverse in SA, England, NZ, Auz didnt help too.

Top international seamers keep on talking about the difficulty in adjusting their lengths when they go from low bounce to higher bounce pitches or vice versa.  Srinath talked about it a lot too.  it is difficult to ignore the point when the pacers themselves are talking about it.

 

Regarding the issue of stamina... we are seeing from the West Indies series 2016  that our 3 fast bowlers maintained pace and intensity even at  the end of the day despite shouldering the primary responsibility.  This is a definitive change that has been noticeable from that series.

 

Another issue is hitting the deck hard.  Previously, we had only one such bowler in the team but now, apart from BK, all other top quicks are deck hitting bowlers most of the time.  They have started getting bounce and seam  movement too and are not solely dependent on swing, whether conventional or reverse.  This has been a big change in Indian cricket and makes me hopeful for a good showing outside Asia.

 

Another issue is actually picking up wickets with consistency in international cricket and knowing what to do, to achieve that.  We have seen Shami, Umesh and Bhuvi picking up wickets with regularity in the last one year.  That means they have started to understand what is needed to be done to actually pick test match wickets.

 

Support and guidance from Kohli and Kumble is another factor that is helping improve our quick bowlers in becoming strike pacers.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Top international seamers keep on talking about the difficulty in adjusting their lengths when they go from low bounce to higher bounce pitches or vice versa.  Srinath talked about it a lot too.  it is difficult to ignore the point when the pacers themselves are talking about it.

 

Regarding the issue of stamina... we are seeing from the West Indies series 2016  that our 3 fast bowlers maintained pace and intensity even at  the end of the day despite shouldering the primary responsibility.  This is a definitive change that has been noticeable from that series.

 

Another issue is hitting the deck hard.  Previously, we had only one such bowler in the team but now, apart from BK, all other top quicks are deck hitting bowlers most of the time.  They have started getting bounce and seam  movement too and are not solely dependent on swing, whether conventional or reverse.  This has been a big change in Indian cricket and makes me hopeful for a good showing outside Asia.

 

Another issue is actually picking up wickets with consistency in international cricket and knowing what to do, to achieve that.  We have seen Shami, Umesh and Bhuvi picking up wickets with regularity in the last one year.  That means they have started to understand what is needed to be done to actually pick test match wickets.

 

Support and guidance from Kohli and Kumble is another factor that is helping improve our quick bowlers in becoming strike pacers.

 

 

Agree with most of it.  But even Windies, spinners bowled a big chunk of overs there.  Won't be the case in places like Eng/SA/Aus, especially in the first innings - and you can be sure that they will prepare tracks that offer zero help to spin.   Look at what SA did against Sri Lanka to nullify Herath - and SL is not even that much of a threat to SA.   So yet to be seen how Indian pacers perform when they have to bowl 80% of the overs and take 100% of the wickets in the 1st innings on away tracks that are on the flatter side.  

 

But like you said, the signs are encouraging.  All we have to do is figure out team balance with that 4th seamer.  And pick which spinner out of Ash and Jaddu to play.  Fitness will be a factor on that one, I'm sure.

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3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Agree with most of it.  But even Windies, spinners bowled a big chunk of overs there.  Won't be the case in places like Eng/SA/Aus, especially in the first innings - and you can be sure that they will prepare tracks that offer zero help to spin.   Look at what SA did against Sri Lanka to nullify Herath - and SL is not even that much of a threat to SA.   So yet to be seen how Indian pacers perform when they have to bowl 80% of the overs and take 100% of the wickets in the 1st innings on away tracks that are on the flatter side.  

 

But like you said, the signs are encouraging.  All we have to do is figure out team balance with that 4th seamer.  And pick which spinner out of Ash and Jaddu to play.  Fitness will be a factor on that one, I'm sure.

 

This is an issue which cannot be ignored.  Infact, since it is well known and we have more than 7 months in hand, some solutions can be thought of and preparations taken.

 

I am suggesting some  ( not saying they are the best ones but definitely some viable options to consider ).

 

1)  Bring in Vijay Shankar as the 6th batsman + 4th seamer.  He is a proper batsman who averages around 50 in FC and is a tall medium-fast pacer who can swing the ball and bowl good bouncers too. Has the shoulders  and action to hit the deck hard.  This will strengthen our batting + give valuable rest to the main fast bowlers and keep them fresh while he bowls some tight overs.

 

He will be ideal for tracks which are green and seamer-friendly, where his medium-paced swing bowling can be handy and an extra batsman helps a lot.

 

2)  On flatter tracks...... use Hardik Pandya as the 4th  fast bowler.   His deck hitting style and pace will be more effective on such tracks. His weaker batting will not be exposed that much on batting tracks.  He too will shoulder the responsibility of the primary fast bowlers and keep them fresh.  He needs to practice bowling accurately for long hours.

 

3)  Jadeja gives us hope that he can be of some help on flatter tracks and non-spinning tracks. he is anyway not a big spinner of the ball and the extra bounce of many of those pitches along with his accuracy may make him helpful to us outside Asia.  His improved batting and ability to tackle bounce, will lend balance to the team.  In my mind, he is our first spinner outside Asia.

 

4)  Kuldeep Yadav, being a wrist spinner who turns the ball and has a good googly and decent flipper.... can be decent outside Asia too and may play as the 2nd spinner on some tracks in place of the 4th seamer.  He has the potential to be a decent batsman too. 

 

 

 

 

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This Aussie team overachieved. Only one man batting (Smith) team having decent bowing. Indians were caught off guard at Pune as they didn't realised Aussies were using the Dressing Room review system. They realised too late, in next test and from there on it was a struggle for Smith and company.

So the series looked competitive because of substandard small town pitches, Aussies using DRS "judiciously" at Pune and Smith batting brilliantly.

 

So this Indian team will still struggle abroad.

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21 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

This is an issue which cannot be ignored.  Infact, since it is well known and we have more than 7 months in hand, some solutions can be thought of and preparations taken.

 

I am suggesting some  ( not saying they are the best ones but definitely some viable options to consider ).

 

1)  Bring in Vijay Shankar as the 6th batsman + 4th seamer.  He is a proper batsman who averages around 50 in FC and is a tall medium-fast pacer who can swing the ball and bowl good bouncers too. Has the shoulders  and action to hit the deck hard.  This will strengthen our batting + give valuable rest to the main fast bowlers and keep them fresh while he bowls some tight overs.

 

He will be ideal for tracks which are green and seamer-friendly, where his medium-paced swing bowling can be handy and an extra batsman helps a lot.

 

2)  On flatter tracks...... use Hardik Pandya as the 4th  fast bowler.   His deck hitting style and pace will be more effective on such tracks. His weaker batting will not be exposed that much on batting tracks.  He too will shoulder the responsibility of the primary fast bowlers and keep them fresh.  He needs to practice bowling accurately for long hours.

 

3)  Jadeja gives us hope that he can be of some help on flatter tracks and non-spinning tracks. he is anyway not a big spinner of the ball and the extra bounce of many of those pitches along with his accuracy may make him helpful to us outside Asia.  His improved batting and ability to tackle bounce, will lend balance to the team.  In my mind, he is our first spinner outside Asia.

 

4)  Kuldeep Yadav, being a wrist spinner who turns the ball and has a good googly and decent flipper.... can be decent outside Asia too and may play as the 2nd spinner on some tracks in place of the 4th seamer.  He has the potential to be a decent batsman too. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sold on Shankar what little I've seen of his bowling.  He looks a proper bat, but we need better bowling than what I saw of him.  He's got more to improve than Pandya with the ball IMO.  

 

What spinner(s) to pick in overseas test is going to be tough call - Which one (or two?) out of Jaddu, Ash and Kuldeep/Chahal.  If we gamble with 2 spinners and get to bowl in the 4th innings, there's a chance it may pay off.  

 

Its a shame Kuldeep debuted in the last test of the season, he could do with more test cricket.  He has decent mix of variety, but if he's over-reliant on his wrong 'un than he risks turning into another Piyush Chawla.  Not saying he will, but he needs to be groomed and developed.  Both him and Chahal are 2 top class wrist spinning prospects for us.  It will be interesting to see which one ends up becoming the lead dog a few years down the road.  

 

Bhuvi should really go home and work on his batting.  Look at what Chris Morris did.  If Bhuvi can get to Jadeja level batting for us, and can play as a 4th seamer - nothing like it.  Look at Chris Woakes - I highly rate that guy - I want Bhuvi to be our version of him.

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