Gollum Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Since 1947 Pakistan has made many futile attempts to claim Kashmir as theirs. They are fuelling insurgent groups in Kashmir Valley whilst also sending terrorists cross border to do jihad on Indian forces and non Sunnis of JK. So much of money, energy and manpower wasted on Kashmir by a developing country with normal 3rd world problems like all other South Asian countries. Why did they never show this much of concern for East Pakistan? Right from partition of Bengal 1905 to the birth of the Muslim League in Dacca at the behest of the Nawab of Dacca, East Bengal has had a big role in the creation of Pakistan. There were many prominent leaders in the League from East Bengal. Whilst Bengali Hindus had such a pivotal role in India's struggle for Independence, Bengali Muslims always stayed away. Bengali Muslims even sabotaged the Swadeshi movement launched as a result of the communal division of United Bengal. They responded to Jinnah's Direct Action Day call by launching an aggressive cleansing of Hindus in Calcutta which weakened the hands of Congress. They cleansed Noakhali of its Hindu population, dashing the final hopes of Gandhi w.r.t United India. Whatever Jinnah wanted, they gave and it won't be a exaggeration to say that without their help, Muslim League would never have succeeded in their dream of a separate Islamic country. Now I wonder what changed in the 20 odd years that made West Pakistanis hate their Bengali brethren so much. East Pak was economically exploited and kept poor, treated like a colony. They were to only supply raw materials to the industries in the Western front. While there were many languages in West Pakistan like Punjabi, Urdu, Kashmiri, Sindhi, Pashto etc what was it about the Bengali language that irked them so much? Why didn't PPP accept the victory of Awami League in the 1971 elections gracefully? Was it because of the relative comradeship between Bengali Hindus and Muslims that irritated them? They even didn't even have the heart to properly respond to a big cyclone in East Bangladesh in 1970 which killed lakhs of people? Here in the valley if a mosquito bites a Kashmiri, Pakistanis have their pants in a twist. randomGuy and Ironhide 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) Once Pakistan absorbs a community / country / region, it treats it badly. Examples - East Pakistan (which is happily BD now), Baluchistan (which was forced to be a part of Pak), and we are seeing separatist movements in Sindh as well. POK and GB report to Islamabad and are said to have been settled by non-natives If the whole Kashmir had been captured by Pak, it would unfortunately have received the same abysmal treatment at Pak' hands. Since it did not, Pak has to act as if it cares Edited March 30, 2017 by zen Gollum and Ironhide 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Because Racism. And India was not interested in East Bengal. And I don't say the 2nd reason as a joke. If India had disputed land claims in East Bengal after independence, I would bet you that things would be different right now. Reality is that without the muslim bengalis support for Pakistan, it wouldn't exist. But still the Pakjabis screwed them over repeatedly for 20 years until they were so fed up that they seceded. Same would have happened with the Baloch, who have risen up in revolt against Pakjabis every generation since the 1950s. 2 things prevented this - the Afghan jihad against USSR came at a crucial time and shored up Pakistan with massive US support financial and political, and then the nukes. Its a good thing actually, we don't want a split up chaotic region with mini Pakistans on our western frontier - better that its one entity - as much of a nuisance as it is. You could even argue that the Bangladeshi secession left Pakistan stronger and more viable. They'd still be fighting amongst themselves with high intensity right now if they were one country. But India didn't choose to go with Politics over Ethics - they saw the genocide and the resultant mass of refugees, and did the right thing. randomGuy, Muloghonto and Gollum 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, zen said: Once Pakistan absorbs a community / country / region, it treats it badly. Examples - East Pakistan (which is happily BD now), Baluchistan (which was forced to be a part of Pak), and we are seeing separatist movements in Sindh as well. POK and GB report to Islamabad and are said to have been settled by non-natives If the whole Kashmir had been captured by Pak, it would unfortunately have received the same abysmal treatment at Pak' hands. Since it did not, Pak has to act as if it cares Yep. Pakistan cares about the territory, not the people. People's "azaadi" is just the excuse - Same thing with the Bengalis - they didn't give up the land without a fight - didn't mind killing maximum number of Bengalis over it. But if you want to be brutally honest, we are no different with the Kashmiris. That's not to say that the valley Kashmiris aren't themselves responsible for their fate as well. Edited March 30, 2017 by sandeep Singh bling and zen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 http://m.timesofindia.com/world/south-asia/an-android-game-with-bangladeshis-killing-pakistanis-is-a-virtual-hit/articleshow/57916768.cms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dial_100 Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, sandeep said: Yep. Pakistan cares about the territory, not the people. People's "azaadi" is just the excuse - Same thing with the Bengalis - they didn't give up the land without a fight - didn't mind killing maximum number of Bengalis over it. But if you want to be brutally honest, we are no different with the Kashmiris. That's not to say that the valley Kashmiris aren't themselves responsible for their fate as well. Most absurd thing I have ever heard. Sorry but I totally disagree. You mean to say we dont care about Kashmiris? If such situation was faced by China or any other country, one can only imagine how quickly and brutally they would have suppressed it. For $$$ing sake, we still take care of separatist. We have special status given to Kashmiris, we still honor their existence despite militancy. We take strong stand against separatist movements and militancy because they massacred Pandits and drove them away from the valley. Their goal was not a separate state. The goal was a state/land for a special community only. No place for other faiths. Exactly what they did in East Pakistan. Huge difference my friend. Edited March 30, 2017 by dial_100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Just now, dial_100 said: Most absurd thing I have ever heard. Sorry but I totally disagree. You mean to say we dont care about Kashmiris? If such situation was faced China or any other country, can you can only imagine how quickly and brutally they would have suppressed it. For $$$ing sake, we still take care of separatist. We have special status given to Kashmiris, we still honor their existence despite militancy. We take strong stand against separatist movements and militancy because they massacred Pandits and drove them away from the valley. Their goal was not a separate state. They goal was state/land for a special community only. No place for other faiths. Exactly what they did in East Pakistan. Huge difference my friend. All of that is fine. But overwhelming majority of Indians want to take away all the special rights that you brag about. And could care less about police and army brutalities that happen - I understand the fury over the rebellion and agree with zero tolerance for violence. But our handling of J&K has a lot of room for improvement. And all that majority of Indians will say to that is repeat "terrorism" and Whataboutery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 7 minutes ago, sandeep said: All of that is fine. But overwhelming majority of Indians want to take away all the special rights that you brag about. And could care less about police and army brutalities that happen - I understand the fury over the rebellion and agree with zero tolerance for violence. But our handling of J&K has a lot of room for improvement. And all that majority of Indians will say to that is repeat "terrorism" and Whataboutery. Bottomline - An average Kashmiri is comfortably better off than an average person from rest of India. Average Bangladeshi was way worse than an average west Pakistani in 1971. (And now perhaps better than an average Pakistani) So what you saying makes zero sense and is simply wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dial_100 Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) I kind of agree with you there. Given a chance, we would have handled this K issue quite differently. But now the wound is too deep and worsened so much that all those measures are impractical now. We are doing best what we can now. Edited March 30, 2017 by dial_100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 12 minutes ago, dial_100 said: I kind of agree with you there. Given a chance, we would have handled this K issue quite differently. But now the wound is too deep and worsened so much that all those measures are impractical now. We are doing best what we can now. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying bashing our army or putting 100% blame on Indian Govt - Kashmiris have been foolishly indulging in fantasies and commiting crimes leading to strong response. But as an Indian citizen, I want my government to do better than they are doing. Kashmiris may still be idiots, but our policies have a lot of room for adjustment and can be more sophisticated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 22 minutes ago, randomGuy said: Bottomline - An average Kashmiri is comfortably better off than an average person from rest of India. Average Bangladeshi was way worse than an average west Pakistani in 1971. (And now perhaps better than an average Pakistani) So what you saying makes zero sense and is simply wrong. Yeah - half the time their phones and internet are cut off. Schools and businesses are shut and supposedly they are "better off". They are themselves responsible for that state of affairs, but don't give me this bs about them being "better off". That's just because they have lower population density due to geography, and because Indian central government subsidizes their state govt. That doesn't make all the other mistakes go away - maybe for you, but certainly not for me. I expect and hold my government to a much higher standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, sandeep said: Yeah - half the time their phones and internet are cut off. Schools and businesses are shut and supposedly they are "better off". They are themselves responsible for that state of affairs, but don't give me this bs about them being "better off". That's just because they have lower population density due to geography, and because Indian central government subsidizes their state govt. That doesn't make all the other mistakes go away - maybe for you, but certainly not for me. I expect and hold my government to a much higher standard. 1. pollution free region - no pollution emitting industry etc. Basically zero contribution in any of the stuff we use or produce on daily basis. Even the infrastructure being developed there is being done by laborers from rest of India. 2. Natural scenic beauty, pure air and water. Cool temperatures when rest of India is and will be having bad summers. 3. Centre's money as well as the boost to economy due to army's presence is continuous boon for economy. I don't think you should refer to all Kashmiris as idiots as many of them would like to stay with India. Plus I think if you wanna feel bad, you should feel bad abt the poor in some of the laggard States of India . Like I said in this board earlier, Delhi, punjab, Goa, j&k ,Kerala etc. are some of the TOP States in india. No reason to feel bad for these. Feel bad about the excess resources going into these States, JK in particular. Edited March 30, 2017 by randomGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 1 minute ago, randomGuy said: 1. pollution free region - no pollution emitting industry etc. Basically zero contribution in any of the stuff we use or produce on daily basis. Even the infrastructure being developed there is being done by laborers from rest of India. 2. Natural scenic beauty, pure air and water. Cool temperatures when rest of India is and will be having bad summers. 3. Centre's money as well as the boost to economy due to army's presence is continuous boon for economy. I don't think you should refer to all Kashmiris as idiots as many of them would like to stay with India. Plus I think if you wanna feel bad, you should feel bad abt the poor in some of the laggard States of India . Like I said, Delhi, punjab, Goa, j&k ,Kerala etc. are some of the TOP States in india. No reason to feel bad for these. Feel bad about the excess resources going into these States JK in particular. More childishness and whatabouttery. So other parts of India have issues, so I shouldn't have any empathy for Kashmiris? Nonsense. And I know a lot more about Kashmir, the history and the details than some genius who feels its some sort of idylic winter paradise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomGuy Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, sandeep said: More childishness and whatabouttery. So other parts of India have issues, so I shouldn't have any empathy for Kashmiris? Nonsense. And I know a lot more about Kashmir, the history and the details than some genius who feels its some sort of idylic winter paradise. You know nothing about India or Kashmir is what I can tell from your posts here. You are honestly just a person with an urge to defend his position not willing to accept a different, more correct PoV which is based on comparison of Kashmir with rest of India. Edited March 30, 2017 by randomGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, randomGuy said: You know nothing about India or Kashmir is what I can tell from your posts here. You are honestly just a person with an urge to defend his position not willing to accept a different, more correct PoV which is based on comparison of Kashmir with rest of India. OK buddy. I don't know anything. Happy. Run along now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Merlyn Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Bengalis were too free. Had their own language and culture which they refused to give up.Didnt give into Pakistani(Read Punjabi) suzernity.They were seduced into this Muslim brotherhood plan and then treated like ****. Pakistan doing the same with Kashmiris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 At the time of independence, East pakistan had a bigger population than West Pakistan. But official language was Urdu, headquarters of the government were in West Pakistan. West Pakistanis were afraid that if they started treating the Bengalis well, the centre of the nation/its capital might shift to Dhaka eventually and Pakistan would be a client-state of Bangladesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jalebi_bhai Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 West Pakistan has always been a Punjabi Muslim dominated state with imperialistic ambitions. What do imperial powers do with captured territories? Suck their resources dry to serve the needs of the politically dominant groups in what is considered the mainland. The difference in the Pakistan situation was that East Pakistan was actually more populated than the West and had more seats in the National assembly, meaning it was a case of the minority oppressing the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Classic case of Ghar ki murgi daal barabar West Pak was treating East Pak as ghar ki murgi until 1971 suddenly surprised them, while Kashmir was that elusive butter chicken which they could smell and build their appetite but never get their hands on. Book_Worm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 Hope Kashmiris take a good long look at the fate of East Pakistan and reset their priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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