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Why do Indian universities rank so bad


gattaca

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Even Chinese and hong Kong university rank well. IISC ranks 152. The reputation is university very level low for Indian universities.forget competing with China in economic terms we need to really improve on education level.

 

 

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2016

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43 minutes ago, gattaca said:

Even Chinese and hong Kong university rank well. IISC ranks 152. The reputation is university very level low for Indian universities.forget competing with China in economic terms we need to really improve on education level.

 

 

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2016

Because most university composite rankings put huge value in postgraduate research. Indian universities are undergrad monsters, postgrad mediocres.

 

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Private institutions in India are largely scams. As for public institutions, top faculty expects to be paid. Research requires cash.

Industry (when government isn't able to) plays a huge role in funding R&D in the west (Industry + Academia feed into each other). Whereas, in India, Industry is fine with being a back office or sweatshop to the goras. Don't mean to play the jati/caste card, since Brahmins got sidelined by lower castes, thirst for pure knowledge vanished. And Baniyas are blood sucking parasites (not that there is anything wrong with that - Greed is essential to drive the economy), so you can't expect them to correct this. R&D is going to have to become profitable for birla/ambanis to change their ways. 

Unfortunately, R&D is a long game. So govt is going to have to take the first step. In another decade or so, I bet you will start seeing that as India becomes a 4+ trillion economy and there are more resources for the govt to play with. 

 

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1 hour ago, sarchasm said:

I don't get the "even the Chinese and HK Univs Rank well" part.

Lol since you don't get that part you down vote ? China innovation is not that great compared to the west. But their universities are in top 50 but India is 150 how hard is that to understand. 

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34 minutes ago, gattaca said:

Lol since you don't get that part you down vote ? China innovation is not that great compared to the west. But their universities are in top 50 but India is 150 how hard is that to understand. 

Chinese economy and standard of living is way better than India. There is no comparison really. With better economic opportunities, comes more funding(and a need) for better standard of education right from schools to universities. 

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1 hour ago, gattaca said:

Lol since you don't get that part you down vote ? China innovation is not that great compared to the west. But their universities are in top 50 but India is 150 how hard is that to understand. 

China innovation not being great is misconception

China is pouring huge money in R&D, highest number of annual patents in world (granted most are poor quality) but still huge number of patents...China has better or more successful tech companies and engineering companies...China can build

nuclear power plants overseas etc

 

india's education from primary to tertiary is woefully far behind. Indian teens never feature in global PISA maths and reading test rankings because they are so far behind their peers in western and other East nations.

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59 minutes ago, chewy said:

China innovation not being great is misconception

China is pouring huge money in R&D, highest number of annual patents in world (granted most are poor quality) but still huge number of patents...China has better or more successful tech companies and engineering companies...China can build

nuclear power plants overseas etc

 

india's education from primary to tertiary is woefully far behind. Indian teens never feature in global PISA maths and reading test rankings because they are so far behind their peers in western and other East nations.

I am reading that last time they took part was in 2009. It happens every 3 years. In 2012 n 2015, they didn't take part because of bad performance in 2009. HRD ministry is Looking to take part in 2021. 2009, smartphones/internet penetration was low....Today it is vastly different... Everything is easily accessible on web/youtube. Bad teachers and lack of facilities are no excuse today. Students have to be sincere themselves. Learning is a 100 times easier today than it was in 2009.

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1 hour ago, randomGuy said:

I am reading that last time they took part was in 2009. It happens every 3 years. In 2012 n 2015, they didn't take part because of bad performance in 2009. HRD ministry is Looking to take part in 2021. 2009, smartphones/internet penetration was low....Today it is vastly different... Everything is easily accessible on web/youtube. Bad teachers and lack of facilities are no excuse today. Students have to be sincere themselves. Learning is a 100 times easier today than it was in 2009.

Yep, I read about that, and what's more damning the Indian gov cherry picked students from better performing states, Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, and even then India finished 2nd last. Can you imagine how awful the quality of literacy rates must be in rest of India!!

 

There is big issue when poorer countries like Vietnam's 15 year olds are achieving Top 10 rankings in PISA tests

 

But there should be disclaimer for PISA tests taken by China, because they only test students from Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Taipie

I m sure students from Indian metros would similarly perform better

 

 

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3 minutes ago, chewy said:

Yep, I read about that, and what's more damning the Indian gov cherry picked students from better performing states, Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, and even then India finished 2nd last. Can you imagine how awful the quality of literacy rates must be in rest of India!!

 

There is big issue when poorer countries like Vietnam's 15 year olds are achieving Top 10 rankings in PISA tests

 

But there should be disclaimer for PISA tests taken by China, because they only test students from Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Taipie

I m sure students from Indian metros would similarly perform better

 

 

Literacy rates in most Indian states are a sham. Anybody who can write their signature is considered literate. Even college graduates dont have good knowledge about subjects they study because of poor teaching levels right from schools to colleges. Somehow they manage to pass their exams through rote learning but that is probably enough to do service sector jobs. Strictly speaking, I dont think even 20 % of Indian population has a decent quality of education. 

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34 minutes ago, chewy said:

Yep, I read about that, and what's more damning the Indian gov cherry picked students from better performing states, Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, and even then India finished 2nd last. Can you imagine how awful the quality of literacy rates must be in rest of India!!

 

There is big issue when poorer countries like Vietnam's 15 year olds are achieving Top 10 rankings in PISA tests

 

But there should be disclaimer for PISA tests taken by China, because they only test students from Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Taipie

I m sure students from Indian metros would similarly perform better

 

 

This is the limitation of our education model:

we base our entire 'metric' of knowledge on a few and far-between 'super-hard tests'. 

Often, students (who mostly don't want to -and shouldn't be expected to- never have a childhood and any fun, so they study only for grades) are forced to 'learn to figure out a test-like problem' and not use actual aptitude to 'figure out' solutions. 


Most aptitude tests are 'figure out a math solution' type tests. Word problems. 

And its unfair to say 'its easier to learn now, so they should do better'. The point is, Indian education system expects its students to spend approximately 50-70 hours per week on studies, sometimes even more. And that is an inherently flawed system, because the bulk majority of kids are going to want to have a childhood, have some fun as well and will be resistant to the notion.

At best, they will be despondently resigned and 'wait for education to end' or be mildly 'permanently rebellious'. 

 

This is an inferior model of education : Finland recently surpassed everyone in early to secondary education and they practically have zero homework! Obviously we cannot replicate that in India for another century at best, but its time to change our education model, that is patently designed to beat down the student, intimidate them and soul-lessly harvest only the brightest and the ones who turn themselves into studious drones intent on acing exams. 

 

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49 minutes ago, chewy said:

Yep, I read about that, and what's more damning the Indian gov cherry picked students from better performing states, Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh, and even then India finished 2nd last. Can you imagine how awful the quality of literacy rates must be in rest of India!!

 

There is big issue when poorer countries like Vietnam's 15 year olds are achieving Top 10 rankings in PISA tests

 

But there should be disclaimer for PISA tests taken by China, because they only test students from Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Taipie

I m sure students from Indian metros would similarly perform better

 

 

Yep, my point is we keep the relatives performance (or the lack thereof) separate for a while. From 2009 to 2017 is a MASSIVE difference in opportunities and ease of learning. You can ignore the results from 2009. For ex. All engineering video lectures of all streams have been uploaded on YouTube. Just open youtube channel 'nptelhrd' see playlists present and it's related channels. Fantastic. Amazing. I am jealous of kids having access to things today that I didn't have growing up. I can't tell you how easy it has become now for everyone, even for the poorest guy in the remotest village. All School subjects from nursery to 12th are also upload on YouTube. Or if u wanna learn say html, JavaScript or XML, you can do that from scratch to pro-level in just 10 minutes on YouTube.  The era of excuses like lack of opportunities, money, atmosphere etc. is gone. Yes, you need money for doing research. But don't need money for learning from the internet.

Edited by randomGuy
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13 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

Yep, my point is we keep the relatives performance (or the lack thereof) separate for a while. From 2009 to 2017 is a MASSIVE difference in opportunities and ease of learning. You can ignore the results from 2009. For ex. All engineering video lectures of all streams have been uploaded on YouTube. Just open youtube channel 'nptelhrd' see playlists present and it's related channels. Fantastic. Amazing. I am jealous of kids having access to things today that I didn't have growing up. I can't tell you how easy it has become now for everyone, even for the poorest guy in the remotest village. All School subjects from nursery to 12th are also upload on YouTube. Or if u wanna learn say html, JavaScript or XML, you can do that from scratch to pro-level in just 10 minutes on YouTube.  The era of excuses like lack of opportunities, money, atmosphere etc. is gone. Yes, you need money for doing research. But don't need money for learning from the internet.

Bhai, all this boils down to education system. When you know your learning means squat unless you can solve a trigonometric monster in grade 10 final or your academic life is over, no second chances, etc. then learning becomes a burden, not a quest. That point is completely lost it seems. 

 

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30 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Bhai, all this boils down to education system. When you know your learning means squat unless you can solve a trigonometric monster in grade 10 final or your academic life is over, no second chances, etc. then learning becomes a burden, not a quest. That point is completely lost it seems. 

 

But it has become ridiculously easy thru videos , slideshows etc.. I remember going through ncert books, hc verma, fiitjee, vidyamandir notes etc. Youtube videos are so easy to learn from...Any concept, any question, anytime, just google or youtube. For example, u wanna learn virtual memory, frames-pages , u r getting headache from ur book (most likely 'galvin'). Just youtube it , 100s of videos on same topics, all topics, explained in the simplest ways. I reckon an entire semester having 5 subjects can be learned in 30-45 days comprehensively, easily,with full confidence.

Edited by randomGuy
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49 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

This is the limitation of our education model:

we base our entire 'metric' of knowledge on a few and far-between 'super-hard tests'. 

Often, students (who mostly don't want to -and shouldn't be expected to- never have a childhood and any fun, so they study only for grades) are forced to 'learn to figure out a test-like problem' and not use actual aptitude to 'figure out' solutions. 


Most aptitude tests are 'figure out a math solution' type tests. Word problems. 

And its unfair to say 'its easier to learn now, so they should do better'. The point is, Indian education system expects its students to spend approximately 50-70 hours per week on studies, sometimes even more. And that is an inherently flawed system, because the bulk majority of kids are going to want to have a childhood, have some fun as well and will be resistant to the notion.

At best, they will be despondently resigned and 'wait for education to end' or be mildly 'permanently rebellious'. 

 

This is an inferior model of education : Finland recently surpassed everyone in early to secondary education and they practically have zero homework! Obviously we cannot replicate that in India for another century at best, but its time to change our education model, that is patently designed to beat down the student, intimidate them and soul-lessly harvest only the brightest and the ones who turn themselves into studious drones intent on acing exams. 

 

+1

one of the best primary and secondary education programme I have across is International Bacculaureate, several private schools are offering it across India but only the rich can access it, it provides the right mix of all round subjects through the years and right balance of project work and exams, and puts strong emphasis on extra circular activities like voluntary work, sports, music etc

 

the government should just copy this model

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Don't fall for this rankings sham. Rankings(even within our country) are utterly biased and are basically to push agenda and invite talents to their countries for higher education. Some of our institutes are world class, eg IISc Bengaluru which is as good as the top Western Universities in research/infra/faculty/scholars. Hope other top universities also invest more in PG alongside UG. We have the students, faculty and potential to be a big player with the demographic dividend if GOI really invests energy in this area.  

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9 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Don't fall for this rankings sham. Rankings(even within our country) are utterly biased and are basically to push agenda and invite talents to their countries for higher education. Some of our institutes are world class, eg IISc Bengaluru which is as good as the top Western Universities in research/infra/faculty/scholars. Hope other top universities also invest more in PG alongside UG. We have the students, faculty and potential to be a big player with the demographic dividend if GOI really invests energy in this area.  

Bhai, as i said, rankings are tilted towards research. And IITs don't hold a candle to top tier universities in Canada, never mind USA (who's top tier is another 2 tiers above Canada's best) in terms of research output. Yes, potential is there for research but Indian education system needs to be reformed and heavily invested in. This is one aspect where China is a million miles ahead of us, even though they cant master English for some reason. 

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1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

Bhai, as i said, rankings are tilted towards research. And IITs don't hold a candle to top tier universities in Canada, never mind USA (who's top tier is another 2 tiers above Canada's best) in terms of research output. Yes, potential is there for research but Indian education system needs to be reformed and heavily invested in. This is one aspect where China is a million miles ahead of us, even though they cant master English for some reason. 

What do you think needs to be done to better our research output in present circumstances? Assuming our education system stays as it is(practically speaking) what can we do? Where do you think an institute like IISc falls short in spite of being such a big name in India and attracting a great pool of talent?

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10 hours ago, Gollum said:

What do you think needs to be done to better our research output in present circumstances? Assuming our education system stays as it is(practically speaking) what can we do? Where do you think an institute like IISc falls short in spite of being such a big name in India and attracting a great pool of talent?

 

I am not sure. 

But i'd hazard an educated guess, that research output is directly tied to industrial investments & spin-offs, along with research grants given by the governments. 

Ie, government needs to invest more and pay its researchers more. 
The biggest hurdle in India's quest for meteoric rise, is its 'Babu-dom' bureaucracy. India is not an easy place to run a business or start one, because of red-tape. Cutting red-tape will spark business. Which will increase tax revenues. Which can be then invested back into our infrastructure, social securities and education.

 

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