kira Posted May 20, 2017 Author Share Posted May 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, sandeep said: He definitely brought that spirit to the side. But let's not glorify his test captaincy too much - I can accept he's better than Dhoni in tests, but I used to get extremely frustrated with his bowling changes and fielding tactics. There's a reason we have a horrible history and habit of letting the last 5 wickets run away with the game. Gangu was a repeat offender on this. Countless examples of tactical ineptitude. Ganguly was the greatest Indian test captain in the last 20-30 years at least, never saw kapil, gavaskar,pataudi so can't compare to them but ganguly is easily the greatest test captain for India since the mid-90s, don't mix ganguly's test captaincy with his odi captaincy Link to comment
kira Posted May 20, 2017 Author Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) We won 1 test match away from home in the 90s, yes just 1 test, including asia, including minnows, including everything View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Home or away away (home of opposition) Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 1999 Totals in terms of batting team Ordered by matches won (descending) Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Ave RPO Inns HS LS India 1990-1999 39 1 15 0 23 0.066 32.90 2.85 65 606 66 In 2000 Ganguly becomes test captain and this is our away record under him View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Home or away away (home of opposition) Start of match date between 1 jan 2000 and 31 dec 2006 Involving the captain SC Ganguly (INDIA) Totals in terms of batting team Ordered by matches won (descending) Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Ave RPO Inns HS LS India 2000-2005 28 11 10 0 7 1.100 36.18 3.17 48 705 99 Ganguly has a win/loss ratio of 1.6, and he did it with a team he built, he wasn't handed down a strong team, but no wait, the arm chair critics think he's over glorified, lol Edited May 20, 2017 by kira DDfan2017, Vilander, AuxiliA and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 hour ago, kira said: In 2000 Ganguly becomes test captain and this is our away record under him View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Home or away away (home of opposition) Start of match date between 1 jan 2000 and 31 dec 2006 Involving the captain SC Ganguly (INDIA) Totals in terms of batting team Ordered by matches won (descending) Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Ave RPO Inns HS LS India 2000-2005 28 11 10 0 7 1.100 36.18 3.17 48 705 99 Ganguly has a win/loss ratio of 1.6, and he did it with a team he built, he wasn't handed down a strong team, but no wait, the arm chair critics think he's over glorified, lol ganguly only won against a test against these good sides - wi,aus, eng, pak, SL Rest all are bang and zimb so if u remove minnows his record would reduce to half .............ofcourse glorified . He was a good captain but way to glorified Link to comment
kira Posted May 20, 2017 Author Share Posted May 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: ganguly only won against a test against these good sides - wi,aus, eng, pak, SL Rest all are bang and zimb so if u remove minnows his record would reduce to half .............ofcourse glorified . He was a good captain but way to glorified That's why I posted the 90s record, we didn't even win against those sides in the 90s, do you not see the dramatic change from 1999, he was not just a good captain, he was the greatest Indian test captain in the last 30 years, rightfully glorified. Vilander 1 Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 13 minutes ago, kira said: That's why I posted the 90s record, we didn't even win against those sides in the 90s, do you not see the dramatic change from 1999, he was not just a good captain, he was the greatest Indian test captain in the last 30 years, rightfully glorified. Yes he was a good captain, best is debatable . He was never able to win series over series even after having upper hand in few- Zimb, Aus, WI were examples. Atleast dravid won a series in Eng, WI(which i wnt count as they were becoming really poor) He did his share of extreme blunders. So when he singlehandedly gets credit and calling him best captain is glorifying to much Link to comment
kira Posted May 20, 2017 Author Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: Yes he was a good captain, best is debatable . He was never able to win series over series even after having upper hand in few- Zimb, Aus, WI were examples. Atleast dravid won a series in Eng, WI(which i wnt count as they were becoming really poor) He did his share of extreme blunders. So when he singlehandedly gets credit and calling him best captain is glorifying to much Again, do you not see the 90s record, you can't simply go from not being able to win a single test in the 90s to winning series in australia, it requires transition period, the fact that Ganguly brought such a huge change in such short amount of time makes him the undisputed king of captaincy in India, it is not debatable. Have you looked at the teams we played with under his captaincy? Openers like ss das, akash chopra, keepers like sameer dighe, deep das gupta, the fact he was able to reach a series winning position with these players in the team shows his mettle as a captain. Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 25 minutes ago, kira said: Again, do you not see the 90s record, you can't simply go from not being able to win a single test in the 90s to winning series in australia, it requires transition period, the fact that Ganguly brought such a huge change in such short amount of time makes him the undisputed king of captaincy in India, it is not debatable. Have you looked at the teams we played with under his captaincy? Openers like ss das, akash chopra, keepers like sameer dighe, deep das gupta, the fact he was able to reach a series winning position with these players in the team shows his mettle as a captain. Again , i have said we were so low that the only way was up N yes ganguly bought the self beilief n fight, but that doesnt mean we degrade other work n call him best As i said best his debatable Yes he didnt have bad teams, most of the players were at peek under him accept for the new ones and the new lot was good to Every captain had their share of luck n issues Yes it is debatable we an have a whole debate on this in a diff thread.....u can start it " was ganugly india's best captain " He was really good but his record and many other aspects doesnt let him be the top contendor for the spot without any debate. About openers yes he had those....yet he wanted to go for the worst pick to " YUVRAJ singh" as test opener And i can count many blunder acts under his captaincy to. Banglore test against pakistan in 2005 were whole team came out to defend like Fattus So there is a lot of debate on this Akele tumhare cheekne se koi baat to sach nhin hone wali, upar hi dekho me n @sandeep only had diff choices. So yea the best captain in test is extremely debatable Link to comment
kira Posted May 20, 2017 Author Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: Again , i have said we were so low that the only way was up N yes ganguly bought the self beilief n fight, but that doesnt mean we degrade other work n call him best As i said best his debatable Yes he didnt have bad teams, most of the players were at peek under him accept for the new ones and the new lot was good to Every captain had their share of luck n issues Yes it is debatable we an have a whole debate on this in a diff thread.....u can start it " was ganugly india's best captain " He was really good but his record and many other aspects doesnt let him be the top contendor for the spot without any debate. Again, I have heard no argument from you except you repeating like a parrot that it's debatable, its debatable, its deba...blah blah. If it is debatable then debate it, dammit. Which other many other aspects? Quote About openers yes he had those....yet he wanted to go for the worst pick to " YUVRAJ singh" as test opener And he also made Sehwag an opener in test cricket, who wouldve viewed sehwag as a test player let alone an opener, this just shows your limited understanding of the game, every captain makes many decisions, some of which click and some don't. Quote And i can count many blunder acts under his captaincy to. Banglore test against pakistan in 2005 were whole team came out to defend like Fattus Even the great australian team lost to India after making India follow on, does that make the aussie team fattu? Your arguments don't even make any sense, saying Ganguly was the greatest Indian test captain doesn't mean he didn't make any mistakes or blunders in his career, every captain has success and failures, Ganguly had more success than failures and he left behind a team which was far stronger than the team his took over as captain, that's his legacy, that's why he is glorified. Quote So there is a lot of debate on this Akele tumhare cheekne se koi baat to sach nhin hone wali, upar hi dekho me n @sandeep only had diff choices. So yea the best captain in test is extremely debatable I have backed my statements with proper logic and evidence Edited: To remove some rude statements Edited May 20, 2017 by kira DDfan2017 1 Link to comment
rageaddict Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said: NZ beat Ganguly's team in the final We should've won that one easily but imploded with both bat and the ball. While batting we had a great opening partnership and then collapsed. While bowling we had NZ on the ropes at 130 odd for 5 and couldn't get it done. That was one of the 9 finals we lost on the trot 9 Finals on trot? Was this before the Natwest Finals win where Ganguly was the Captain ? Edited May 20, 2017 by rageaddict Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, kira said: Again, I have hear no argument from you except you repeating like a parrot that it's debatable, its debatable, its deba...blah blah. If it is debatable then debate it, dammit. Which other many other aspects? You didn't even list 1/ Ok lets have a debate on this 3 minutes ago, kira said: And he also made Sehwag an opener in test cricket, who wouldve viewed sehwag as a test player let alone an opener, this just shows your limited understanding of the game, every captain makes many decisions, some of which click and some don't. He actually didnt, he didnt have a choice as middle order was packed, that was more out of lack of option to fit him in rather than a tactical move Even in ODi, if u check that series every batsman was send to open even yuvraj singh 3 minutes ago, kira said: Even the great australian team lost to India after making India follow on, does that make the aussie team fattu? Your arguments don't even make any sense, saying Ganguly was the greatest Indian test captain doesn't mean he didn't make any mistakes or blunders in his career, every captain has success and failures, Ganguly had more success than failures and he left behind a team which was far stronger than the team his took over as captain, that's his legacy, that's why he is glorified. Aussie went for a win athen they lost, they didnt loose like us. We started ducking every ball and went into shell 3 minutes ago, kira said: Abey cheek to tu rha hai wo bhi nonsense, I have backed my statements with proper logic and evidence, ye sandeep kaha se aagya? Sandeep kuch bhi bole tu apna argument toh rakh pehle SO isnt it an argument the guy never won a series overseas Isnt this an argument that he use to loose after hvaing upper hand in the series Isnt this an argument he kept playing injured bowlers like Nehra n zaheer Isnt this an argument he disturbed a settled opening pair of sehwag n chopra coz of his wish of making yuvi open. Isnt this an argument that his record isnt that gr8 if u remove his victories against Zimb n Bang Isnt this argument his declarations against aus in kolkata n in sydeny showed he was an extra cautious captain. Isnt this an argument he kept persisting with someone like parthi despite his poor run and then karthik which delayed the entrance of Dhoni. Then ofcourse the famous nagpur test where he faked an injury..........watching grass on pitch . India 2nd innings (target: 383 runs) R M B 4s 6s SR G Gambhir lbw b Mohammad Sami 52 152 124 7 0 41.93 V Sehwag run out (Abdul Razzaq) 38 107 53 6 0 71.69 R Dravid c Younis Khan b Arshad Khan 16 70 64 2 0 25.00 SR Tendulkar c Asim Kamal b Shahid Afridi 16 140 98 2 0 16.32 VVS Laxman lbw b Shahid Afridi 5 35 29 1 0 17.24 SC Ganguly* b Shahid Afridi 2 16 14 0 0 14.28 KD Karthik† b Mohammad Sami 9 55 44 2 0 20.45 A Kumble not out 37 89 52 7 0 71.15 IK Pathan c Yousuf Youhana b Arshad Khan 0 35 29 0 0 0.00 Harbhajan Singh c Younis Khan b Danish Kaneria 8 29 22 1 0 36.36 L Balaji lbw b Danish Kaneria 0 17 16 0 0 0.00 Extras (b 8, lb 8, w 10, nb 5) 31 Total (all out; 90 overs; 377 mins) 214 (2.37 runs per over) YE le banglore test ka evidence.....how whole team went into shell......and surrendered again after having a upper hand in the series. Which has also previously happ in ZIMB, AUS, WI Ultimate_Game 1 Link to comment
DDfan2017 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) Only the number of wins and records don't define the best captain. Getting into winning habit is a process that Ganguly developed. We had the same Sachin, Dravid, Laxman, Ganguly, Kumble, Agarkar going to Australia in 1999 as well as 2003. Just see the difference in approach and confidence of the players in those two series. India, under Ganguly, would have definitely won the 2003 Aussie series only if he had a wicket keeper like his predecessors (Mongia) or successors (Dhoni) had. Best evidence of Saurav's greatness as captain is the fact that India rose to rank 2 from the lowest level. 54 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: About openers yes he had those....yet he wanted to go for the worst pick to " YUVRAJ singh" as test opener And i can count many blunder acts under his captaincy to. Banglore test against pakistan in 2005 were whole team came out to defend like Fattus So there is a lot of debate on this Akele tumhare cheekne se koi baat to sach nhin hone wali, upar hi dekho me n @sandeep only had diff choices. So yea the best captain in test is extremely debatable @kira akele nahin cheekh raha hai, more than half of the nation says so. If Yuvi as opener would have been the worst pick, then picking Sehwag as opener was one of the best things to have ever happened to India. Who would have thought a lower middle order batsman would be the most destructive test opener who could score 200 and 300 at will? Yuvi was out of the team in 2002-03, could have been a lost talent like Kambli, but it was the captain to recognise his value and forced him back in the team and Yuvi responded with two great innings against Zimbabwe. Insisting on getting Zaheer back into the team after injuries is the reason Zaheer turned out to be one of the best pacers in India. Every talent needs such confidence and backing from the skipper. Who else could Ganguly turn to if not Zaheer and Nehra? Likes of Balaji, Mohanty and Agarkar? He didn't have the luxury to ignore Zaheer and Nehra as there was scarcity of pace bowlers in domestic cricket then. Sreesanth, RP Singh, Munaf were still not ready for team India. Yes, he too had his lows as captain. His field placement and bowling changes were not spot on everytime. But so is with any other captain. Even Kohli looks too defensive with his fielding placement in test matches. Doesn't tend to have enough close-in fielders, particularly with new batsmen in. He was perhaps a great ODI captain too. But he had some curse in finals. Somehow managed to lose every tournament final, except the Natwest final. One CT final was lost to an unbelievable innings from an injured Cairns with runners, another CT final got washed away. The tri-series final against West Indies in Zimbabwe was another frustrating loss where India thoroughly dominated the tournament just to be blown away by someone like Darren Ganga. However, late fight by Dighe and Sodhi brought India close to victory, but couldn't cross the line. One major reason of India's loss in finals was poor show from Zaheer in the finals despite having a great series. Be it CT 2000, NatWest final, any tri-series or WC 2003. Zaheer's sudden loss of form was a big reason for loss, and captain had nothing to do. Zaheer had almost screwed even WC 2011 final too in his final spell. Other than the losses in finals, the way India performed in rest of the tournaments was a clear sign of a confident team that could bat well anywhere in the world which was really missing under previous captains. One can see the change in approach and confidence of team India in WC 1999 and WC 2003 or in England in ODIs in 90s and post 2000, NatWest for example. And that belief was brought in by Ganguly in ODIs too. So someone won't be wrong or glorifying things if he says Saurav was the best captain undoubtedly in test and perhaps in ODIs too. Edited May 20, 2017 by DDfan2017 Laaloo, adi B and kira 3 Link to comment
DDfan2017 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 32 minutes ago, kira said: Again, I have heard no argument from you except you repeating like a parrot that it's debatable, its debatable, its deba...blah blah. If it is debatable then debate it, dammit. Which other many other aspects? And he also made Sehwag an opener in test cricket, who wouldve viewed sehwag as a test player let alone an opener, this just shows your limited understanding of the game, every captain makes many decisions, some of which click and some don't. Even the great australian team lost to India after making India follow on, does that make the aussie team fattu? Your arguments don't even make any sense, saying Ganguly was the greatest Indian test captain doesn't mean he didn't make any mistakes or blunders in his career, every captain has success and failures, Ganguly had more success than failures and he left behind a team which was far stronger than the team his took over as captain, that's his legacy, that's why he is glorified. I have backed my statements with proper logic and evidence Edited: To remove some rude statements Well said. People mostly don't get this logic. I share all your views on Dada kira 1 Link to comment
DDfan2017 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 21 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: Ok lets have a debate on this He actually didnt, he didnt have a choice as middle order was packed, that was more out of lack of option to fit him in rather than a tactical move Even in ODi, if u check that series every batsman was send to open even yuvraj singh Aussie went for a win athen they lost, they didnt loose like us. We started ducking every ball and went into shell SO isnt it an argument the guy never won a series overseas Isnt this an argument that he use to loose after hvaing upper hand in the series Isnt this an argument he kept playing injured bowlers like Nehra n zaheer Isnt this an argument he disturbed a settled opening pair of sehwag n chopra coz of his wish of making yuvi open. Isnt this an argument that his record isnt that gr8 if u remove his victories against Zimb n Bang Isnt this argument his declarations against aus in kolkata n in sydeny showed he was an extra cautious captain. Isnt this an argument he kept persisting with someone like parthi despite his poor run and then karthik which delayed the entrance of Dhoni. Then ofcourse the famous nagpur test where he faked an injury..........watching grass on pitch . India 2nd innings (target: 383 runs) R M B 4s 6s SR G Gambhir lbw b Mohammad Sami 52 152 124 7 0 41.93 V Sehwag run out (Abdul Razzaq) 38 107 53 6 0 71.69 R Dravid c Younis Khan b Arshad Khan 16 70 64 2 0 25.00 SR Tendulkar c Asim Kamal b Shahid Afridi 16 140 98 2 0 16.32 VVS Laxman lbw b Shahid Afridi 5 35 29 1 0 17.24 SC Ganguly* b Shahid Afridi 2 16 14 0 0 14.28 KD Karthik† b Mohammad Sami 9 55 44 2 0 20.45 A Kumble not out 37 89 52 7 0 71.15 IK Pathan c Yousuf Youhana b Arshad Khan 0 35 29 0 0 0.00 Harbhajan Singh c Younis Khan b Danish Kaneria 8 29 22 1 0 36.36 L Balaji lbw b Danish Kaneria 0 17 16 0 0 0.00 Extras (b 8, lb 8, w 10, nb 5) 31 Total (all out; 90 overs; 377 mins) 214 (2.37 runs per over) YE le banglore test ka evidence.....how whole team went into shell......and surrendered again after having a upper hand in the series. Which has also previously happ in ZIMB, AUS, WI Blame it on Sachin who scores 16 off 98. He did this time and again. India was too dependent on Sehwag to win chasing in test. Once Sehwag got out after giving a flying start. Dravid and Sachin would go into shell even when reqd rate was a little above 3. Sachin could go for win in the Chennai test against England only coz Sehwag played a long innings and Yuvi was there with positive mindset. Had Dravid not got out early, that test too would have been a draw. Ultimate_Game 1 Link to comment
DDfan2017 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 29 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: Ok lets have a debate on this He actually didnt, he didnt have a choice as middle order was packed, that was more out of lack of option to fit him in rather than a tactical move Even in ODi, if u check that series every batsman was send to open even yuvraj singh Aussie went for a win athen they lost, they didnt loose like us. We started ducking every ball and went into shell SO isnt it an argument the guy never won a series overseas Isnt this an argument that he use to loose after hvaing upper hand in the series Isnt this an argument he kept playing injured bowlers like Nehra n zaheer Isnt this an argument he disturbed a settled opening pair of sehwag n chopra coz of his wish of making yuvi open. Isnt this an argument that his record isnt that gr8 if u remove his victories against Zimb n Bang Isnt this argument his declarations against aus in kolkata n in sydeny showed he was an extra cautious captain. Isnt this an argument he kept persisting with someone like parthi despite his poor run and then karthik which delayed the entrance of Dhoni. Then ofcourse the famous nagpur test where he faked an injury..........watching grass on pitch . The declaration in Eden was delayed, but so did Dhoni on several occasions. So did Kohli in Ranchi against Aussies too. At times, you have to be defensive, particularly when you are one down in the series and can't afford another loss. And the kind of form Aussies were in then, you could never guess what could be the safe target. What if India had declared in the Johannesburg test with target of 420 or 430? kira and Laaloo 2 Link to comment
Laaloo Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 50 minutes ago, DDfan2017 said: The declaration in Eden was delayed, but so did Dhoni on several occasions. So did Kohli in Ranchi against Aussies too. At times, you have to be defensive, particularly when you are one down in the series and can't afford another loss. And the kind of form Aussies were in then, you could never guess what could be the safe target. What if India had declared in the Johannesburg test with target of 420 or 430? Nothing and I mean nothing will ever surpass Dhoni declaring and setting a target of 600. Thankfully we were already ahead in the series. DDfan2017 1 Link to comment
Stuge Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 On 5/19/2017 at 8:25 PM, laaloo said: We should have won against Lanka. Freaking both matches were washed out and in one match Sehwag had like 3-4 boundaries in one over. Not having a reserve day for a final was dumb Link to comment
Lord Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 56 minutes ago, DDfan2017 said: The declaration in Eden was delayed, but so did Dhoni on several occasions. So did Kohli in Ranchi against Aussies too. At times, you have to be defensive, particularly when you are one down in the series and can't afford another loss. And the kind of form Aussies were in then, you could never guess what could be the safe target. What if India had declared in the Johannesburg test with target of 420 or 430? Being down is all the more reason to go for the win.If you are leading the series,then still its understandable ,,though not acceptable Link to comment
Laaloo Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Stuge said: Not having a reserve day for a final was dumb We did lol. Both days got washed out and we needed like 230 odd both games iirc Ultimate_Game 1 Link to comment
Stuge Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 minute ago, laaloo said: We did lol. Both days got washed out and we needed like 230 odd both games iirc I meant to say they should have continued from where they left the previous day . Link to comment
Lord Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, laaloo said: We did lol. Both days got washed out and we needed like 230 odd both games iirc that and Chennai Test in 2004 both were easy wins Ultimate_Game and Laaloo 2 Link to comment
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