rtmohanlal Posted May 29, 2017 Author Share Posted May 29, 2017 1 hour ago, the don said: Sachin tendulkar and dravid have been caught ball tampering . You as a common man who believes in fair play should feel ashamed. Remember how Imran owned srikanth after recalling him as he went back having a sook .Guess who called for neutral umpires ?? No neutral ever mentions kapil in the same breath as the great khan because its a crime . He just wasnt good enough whichever way you look at it . Imran was easily the best of the fab 4 followed by Botham . Headlee was a great bowler while kapil was a good cricketer but didnt belong to that elite company . Lots of respect for him being the first military medium bowler from his country but at the world level as noted by the neutrals and even ex cricketers from his own country like sanjay manjrekar and many others he was nowhere near the league of Imran . Oh...what examples to compare Imran's tampering .... Sachin & Dravid. In Sachin's case he clarified that time itself that he was removing mud from the ball with out informing the umpires.After all what would such a legendary batsman benefit from tampering rather than tarnishing his own legacy. You can glorify Imran to sky high levels but the plain truth is that his legacy has been tarnished a lot for sure... express bowling, sandeep and Rightarmfast 3 Link to comment
Tattieboy Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 On 26 May 2017 at 5:35 PM, rtmohanlal said: really an eye opener w.r.t the extend of benefit Imran got from ball tampering & also from quality support bowlers like Wasim & Waqar. I would say he benefitted even from captaincy because had he not been the captain he wouldn't have been able to 'typically bowl 5-6 overs with the new ball, then 5-6 over with the old ball around 70-75 overs mark and end up with stuff like 5-2-15-1 kind of figures on each spell' A bowler who was averaging 29-30 on the avg: all thru his life in 70s & that too playing with very less work density ,all of a sudden turns into an 'out of the world' bowler.Then onwards he plays non stop cricket like playing 16 tests on the trot in a period of just 14.5 months & picking bucket loads of wkts before getting injured.And 102 wkts in just 16 tests in generally hot & humid Pakistani conditions @ 12.89 is the icing on the cake. Lets take a look at 2 series"..India v West Indies Oct - Dec 1983 and England v West Indies June 1984. Both home series against West Indies in same time period and compare Ian Botham and Kapil Dev. Batting Kapil Dev....11 innings 184 runs ...average 16.82 Batting Positions 1 x number 6 3 x number 7 5 x number 8 2 x number 9 Bowling ......29 wickets @ ......... 4.83 wickets a test Ian Botham Batting 10 innings 347 runs @ 34.70 Batting Position 10 x number 6 Bowling 19 wickets @ 35.10......3.8 wickets a test Is a genuine all rounder someone who bats himself mostly at 8@9 or is that a captain hiding? another fact, of Kapil Devs 29 wickets, 18 or 62.07% were of batsman number 7 or under....Ian Botham had 14 wickets of 19 or 73.69% of number 7 or under. Again is this a captain targeting lower order batsman for himself? As this is two all rounders at their pomp on home soil against best team in the world at that time it s a good gauge of their ability. Ian Botham to me was a genuine true all rounder in batting and bowling , Bowler number six batsman, where Kapil Dev was a genuine bowler but liked getting cheap wickets at the tail using his position as captain to capture them.... Looks like he also used his position as captain to go up and down the order depending f he fancied the bowling... Link to comment
the don Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 40 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said: Oh...what examples to compare Imran's tampering .... Sachin & Dravid. In Sachin's case he clarified that time itself that he was removing mud from the ball with out informing the umpires.After all what would such a legendary batsman benefit from tampering rather than tarnishing his own legacy. You can glorify Imran to sky high levels but the plain truth is that his legacy has been tarnished a lot for sure... Ofcourse sachin wasnt trying to tarnish his legacy .He was just trying to help his team through unfair means. Read what the match refree has to say about it . Yeah right , imran's legacy has been tarnished to such an extent that almost all observers place him at the top of the allrounders throne , even indians who played against him like gavaskar and manjrekar are in awe of him . Nobody rates kapil . Those who have seen him and played against him know his limitations as a cricketer . He scrapes the bottom of the very list of allrounders that Imran leads. Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 29, 2017 Author Share Posted May 29, 2017 32 minutes ago, the don said: Ofcourse sachin wasnt trying to tarnish his legacy .He was just trying to help his team through unfair means. Read what the match refree has to say about it . Yeah right , imran's legacy has been tarnished to such an extent that almost all observers place him at the top of the allrounders throne , even indians who played against him like gavaskar and manjrekar are in awe of him . Nobody rates kapil . Those who have seen him and played against him know his limitations as a cricketer . He scrapes the bottom of the very list of allrounders that Imran leads. players like Botham,Lamb.Robin Smith,Sandhu,Maninder,Amarnath,Shastri,Rameez Raja,Aamer sohail,John Reid,Chris Old ,Sarfraz Nawaz etc etc have given testimonies already w.r.t Imran's tampering. W.R.T Sachin ...already stated what aactually happend. Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 @ Muloghonto "1. I hold Imran's ball tampering against him, not the 'not outs'. Why should a batsman be penalized for limited opportunity to score runs because he got stranded ? Sure, not outs *CAN* inflate an average well beyond what a batsman is worth, but unless we have a batsman averaging 40+ without scoring a single century or their scoring rate of 50 is well below 20% of the innings, then it is simply an opportunity denied for batsmen to score runs. " *CAN* inflate an average well beyond what a batsman is worth - this is the main point. I already posted one series avg: of Imran vs AUS where he avg:ed 64 from 3 inns scoring only 64 runs & remaining not outs in 2 inns. To actually avg: 64 , he needed to score 192 runs, ie: 128 runs more. To think that had Imran went on with his 2 notouts inns, he would have scored 128 runs more is really difficult to sink in.Being almost a tailender level batsman in the first half of his career , he would have scored way lesser.This is one instance only. This shows the extend of advantage Imran's 'notouts' had on his avg:. Link to comment
putrevus Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 On 5/29/2017 at 8:09 AM, Tattieboy said: Lets take a look at 2 series"..India v West Indies Oct - Dec 1983 and England v West Indies June 1984. Both home series against West Indies in same time period and compare Ian Botham and Kapil Dev. Batting Kapil Dev....11 innings 184 runs ...average 16.82 Batting Positions 1 x number 6 3 x number 7 5 x number 8 2 x number 9 Bowling ......29 wickets @ ......... 4.83 wickets a test Ian Botham Batting 10 innings 347 runs @ 34.70 Batting Position 10 x number 6 Bowling 19 wickets @ 35.10......3.8 wickets a test Is a genuine all rounder someone who bats himself mostly at 8@9 or is that a captain hiding? another fact, of Kapil Devs 29 wickets, 18 or 62.07% were of batsman number 7 or under....Ian Botham had 14 wickets of 19 or 73.69% of number 7 or under. Again is this a captain targeting lower order batsman for himself? As this is two all rounders at their pomp on home soil against best team in the world at that time it s a good gauge of their ability. Ian Botham to me was a genuine true all rounder in batting and bowling , Bowler number six batsman, where Kapil Dev was a genuine bowler but liked getting cheap wickets at the tail using his position as captain to capture them.... Looks like he also used his position as captain to go up and down the order depending f he fancied the bowling... When did Kapil get cheap wickets, he was the main strike bowler and holding bowler.England was much stronger team then. Kapil's best seam bowling partner in that WI series was Binny with 8 wickets.He had to carry so much bowling load that he rarely gave his batting that much attention.Even with six main batsmen Indian batting was weak then.So Kapil mainly played at no 7 or no 8. As I said in my earlier posts Botham was better batsman than all other three all rounders of his Era. Botham also had luxury of playing in settled side with Bob Willis another 300 plus wicket bowler for major part of his career. Botham also had better average at no 7 than at no 6. Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, putrevus said: When did Kapil get cheap wickets, he was the main strike bowler and holding bowler.England was much stronger team then. Kapil's best seam bowling partner in that WI series was Binny with 8 wickets.He had to carry so much bowling load that he rarely gave his batting that much attention.Even with six main batsmen Indian batting was weak then.So Kapil mainly played at no 7 or no 8. As I said in my earlier posts Botham was better batsman than all other three all rounders of his Era. Botham also had luxury of playing in settled side with Bob Willis another 300 plus wicket bowler for major part of his career. Botham also had better average at no 7 than at no 6. Still don't get your claim that Botham was the better batsman to Kapil. In avg: their is only small difference in favour of Botham 33.54 : 31.05. And at the end of 182 inns Kapil avg:ed 31.29.Botham only played 161 inns. Going by the level of downfall he was having (just check his cumulative avg:) his avg: would have fallen to way less than 33.54 had he gone on to play 182 inns. And Botham was pathetic in WI(best team of their era).Neither did he dare to play in PAK against Imran & others.Kapil was extremely dangerous with str: rate of 80.91 to Botham's 60.71. And in onedayers there is no comparison. Kapil was miles ahead in BATTING. Kapil had a peak in one dayers where he avg:ed almost 32 with the bat & 110+ str: rate or so.And this include his world cup heroics too.So all in all this makes me wonder as to how Botham was the better over all batsman? Edited May 31, 2017 by rtmohanlal Link to comment
putrevus Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 13 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said: Still don't get your claim that Botham was the better batsman to Kapil. In avg: their is only small difference in favour of Botham 33.54 : 31.05. And at the end of 182 inns Kapil avg:ed 31.29.Botham only played 161 inns. Going by the level of downfall he was having (just check his cumulative avg:) his avg: would have fallen to way less than 33.54 had he gone on to play 182 inns. And Botham was pathetic in WI(best team of their era).Neither did he dare to play in PAK against Imran & others.Kapil was extremely dangerous with str: rate of 80.91 to Botham's 60.71. And in onedayers there is no comparison. Kapil was miles ahead in BATTING. Kapil had a peak in one dayers where he avg:ed almost 32 with the bat & 110+ str: rate or so.And this include his world cup heroics too.So all in all this makes me wonder as to how Botham was the better over all batsman? Average is not everything. Botham played vast number of tests at no 5/no 6 which is a proper batsman's spot on a team which was better than India at that time. All rounder who walks into a team as a top six batsman lends team much more balance. Kapil never gave that balance to the team in tests as India still needed six batsmen to bolster their batting.There is a reason why India played so many draws during that period, they simply did not have enough bowling to get 20 wickets. Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 1 hour ago, putrevus said: Average is not everything. Botham played vast number of tests at no 5/no 6 which is a proper batsman's spot on a team which was better than India at that time. All rounder who walks into a team as a top six batsman lends team much more balance. Kapil never gave that balance to the team in tests as India still needed six batsmen to bolster their batting.There is a reason why India played so many draws during that period, they simply did not have enough bowling to get 20 wickets. that means Kapil deserves even more credit.Botham played as a proper batsman .Yet he could achieve only what he really achieved. Kapil achieved what he really achieved in the company of unreliable tailenders much more than Botham.So Kapil deserves added credit. Rightarmfast 1 Link to comment
putrevus Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said: that means Kapil deserves even more credit.Botham played as a proper batsman .Yet he could achieve only what he really achieved. Kapil achieved what he really achieved in the company of unreliable tailenders much more than Botham.So Kapil deserves added credit. Ganguly once said if he or Laxman batted at no 3 they would have scored more 100s which is total crap. They both were tried at no3 but they were just not good enough to last so you do not get credit for something which you never really were capable of doing it. Same thing with Kapil Dev he never was good enough to be a no 6 on consistent basis. Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 2 hours ago, putrevus said: Ganguly once said if he or Laxman batted at no 3 they would have scored more 100s which is total crap. They both were tried at no3 but they were just not good enough to last so you do not get credit for something which you never really were capable of doing it. Same thing with Kapil Dev he never was good enough to be a no 6 on consistent basis. If Botham avg:ed over 40 just as normal quality top order batsmen does, i would have agreed with what you said.Him having avg:ed only in the range of Kapil despite playing higher up the order than Kapil means, Kapil deserve to get more credit for having scored his runs in the company of lower order batsmen. Link to comment
Tattieboy Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 On 31 May 2017 at 7:44 PM, rtmohanlal said: If Botham avg:ed over 40 just as normal quality top order batsmen does, i would have agreed with what you said.Him having avg:ed only in the range of Kapil despite playing higher up the order than Kapil means, Kapil deserve to get more credit for having scored his runs in the company of lower order batsmen. Ask any captain what they would rather have a specialst number 6 adding max 14 runs a test or some giving 3.75 wickets a test? I think they would take a Botham every day of the week Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tattieboy said: Ask any captain what they would rather have a specialst number 6 adding max 14 runs a test or some giving 3.75 wickets a test? I think they would take a Botham every day of the week Didn't get you.Can you brief a little? Edited June 2, 2017 by rtmohanlal update Link to comment
Anupam Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Any discussion on greatest cricket allrounders naturally begins with Jacques Kallis. With almost 25K runs, 550 odd wickets, an average of over 55 in tests(more than Sachin's test average) and 45 test centuries(the list is endless), he is head and shoulders above the rest. Kapil Dev, Ian Botham, Garfield Sobers and Imran Khan with their impressive batting and bowling records make the cut for this list . My money among the current crop of players to be a part of this elite list would be Ravichandran Ashwin but it's too early to take a call. Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 16 minutes ago, Anupam said: Any discussion on greatest cricket allrounders naturally begins with Jacques Kallis. With almost 25K runs, 550 odd wickets, an average of over 55 in tests(more than Sachin's test average) and 45 test centuries(the list is endless), he is head and shoulders above the rest. Kapil Dev, Ian Botham, Garfield Sobers and Imran Khan with their impressive batting and bowling records make the cut for this list . My money among the current crop of players to be a part of this elite list would be Ravichandran Ashwin but it's too early to take a call. Ashwin needs to improve his one day figures, especially batting, vastly if he has to compete with the likes of Kallis,Sobers,Kapil, Botham etc etc. In tests it is ok... he is comparable with the others. Link to comment
Khota Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 On 5/29/2017 at 7:48 AM, the don said: Ofcourse sachin wasnt trying to tarnish his legacy .He was just trying to help his team through unfair means. Read what the match refree has to say about it . Yeah right , imran's legacy has been tarnished to such an extent that almost all observers place him at the top of the allrounders throne , even indians who played against him like gavaskar and manjrekar are in awe of him . Nobody rates kapil . Those who have seen him and played against him know his limitations as a cricketer . He scrapes the bottom of the very list of allrounders that Imran leads. That is your opinion. People are polite and dont say a thing. End of the day Imran was a serial ball tamperer and a cheat. Link to comment
Vijy Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 in what format are we discussing? Link to comment
SUMO Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 best spinner all rounder -- ASHWIN overtook richie benaud Link to comment
SUMO Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 IN tests - Proper allrounders contention is only between Top 7 - Miller Sobers Imran Kapil Botham Hadlle Kallis (these were GOATs in One department at least) Honourable mentions : Benaud, Davidson,Tony greig, Mike procter, Clive rice, Ambrey Faulkner,Flintoff, Pollock, Ashwin etc Only Ashwin has potential to make top 7 into top 8 (Stokes isn't specialist in any department in tests I think, Shakib isn't that good either) Now coming to Best 5 I will choose Sobers Kallis Imran Botham Kapil Link to comment
Vijy Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 51 minutes ago, SUMO said: IN tests - Proper allrounders contention is only between Top 7 - Miller Sobers Imran Kapil Botham Hadlle Kallis (these were GOATs in One department at least) Honourable mentions : Benaud, Davidson,Tony greig, Mike procter, Clive rice, Ambrey Faulkner,Flintoff, Pollock, Ashwin etc Only Ashwin has potential to make top 7 into top 8 (Stokes isn't specialist in any department in tests I think, Shakib isn't that good either) Now coming to Best 5 I will choose Sobers Kallis Imran Botham Kapil Faulkner was much better than Hadlee and Kapil since an avg of 40+ in those time was rare. Moreover, if you look at his avg, and esp SR they are very impressive (and also number of wkts per match). Proctor would have been better than almost everyone listed here had he played more. Link to comment
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