rtmohanlal Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) Not sure such a topic has already been posted here in ICF. Anyways posting the same. Omitting wicket keepers because they are different sort of all rounders. My top5 1. Gary Sobers - Genius with the bat with around 58 avg: .Played in an era with much less protective gears than what is available now a days.Agreed that in his days media scrutiny was much lesser & his technique was not exposed to technical analysis as is the case now a days, but yet when considered the merits & demerits as a whole his achievement is legendary. He was a versatile left arm bowler who could bowl fast/medium, orthodox & chinaman who avg:ed around 34 with the ball.To add to that he was brilliant fielder. A real match winner who put magical performances with bat & ball together in several series. 2. Jaques Kallis - Calibre enough to avg: 55+ in these technology advanced & intense media scrutiny days.Much greater longevity than Sobers in both the disciplines.More of a grafter when compared to Sobers with the bat.Not only that he played both the formats of the game with such longevity. In bowling he took nearly 300 wkts at around 32 avg: . Yes... in bowling he benefitted a lot in the company of great bowlers like Donald , Pollock & Steyn, yet his achivement is nothing short of brilliant. He too put quite a few brilliant performances with both bat and ball in some series. 3. Kapil Dev - May spring a surprise because of him being placed above 'traditionally believed to be superior' all rounders like Imran, Botham & Miller. Reasons. why above Imran - Batting - Imran's bat avg: is hugely inflated by one 'not out' in every 5 inns. In a series at home vs AUS , he avg:ed 64 in 3 inns with 2 notouts by scoring only a total of 64 runs.To avg: 64 he actually needed to score 192 runs. Just look how vastly this 'not out' factor inflated the avg:. This, in the first half of his career when he was only a Stuart Broad calibre batsman. Similarly there are several not out inns of Imran all thru his career. Kapil played for so longer than Imran(184: 126 inns ) , he was destructive than even Viv Richards( In his first 126 inns his str: rate was 84+ which eventually dropped to 81 at the end of his career.Imran's was only 47.5) ,they were chalk & cheese apart in WI(best team of their times which matters a lot) with Kapil outscoring Imran in avg:,big inns:, str: rate etc etc.Kapil's big innings played on the avg: was atleast a level above to those of Imran's if we take into account factors like bowling quality,percentage of team score,home/abroad,single handed effort,match situation etc etc( this i am saying after having analysed each of their big inns in detail) .For instance take Kapil's 2 best inns of 129 vs SAF & 100* vs WI. Such inns are those even specialist batsmen like Sachin would badly wish to have in their kits.For these reasons I can't rate Imran at not more than 90% a test batsman to Kapil. In bowling too Kapil's avg: of 29.64 need to evaluated based on longevity,work density(first 88 tests in a period of just 8 years & 5 months) , lack of support bowling strength thru out his career.Kapil bowled his first 21000 balls(Imran bowled only some 19500 balls in tests) at 28.86 avg:. Kapil's avg: & str: rate was 27.7 & 54 respectively after 64 tests.But after his knee injury & surgery he just didn't take rest & played straight away which resulted in fetching only 64 wkts at around 35 avg: in next 26 tests(a case of placing country before self).I would mention this as an effect of 'work load' . Kapil had the likes of Binny,Madan lal,Sandhu, Sastri in company where as Imran had Wasim,Waqar,Iqbal Qasim,Qadir,Sarfraz etc ect all thru his career. All in all I imagine as to how Kapil's figures would have ended , had he bowled only some 19500 balls in a long span of 21 years in the company of bowlers like Wasim,Waqar etc etc(just like Imran did). I am sure his avg; would have been a lot better. So even with out advantages in factors ' work density' & 'support bowling strength' Kapil was 22.81/28.86 =79.03 % a bowler that Imran was. I think had Kapil got the advantages in these 2 factors he would have easily avg:ed around 26.85.Around 85% .Means, in that case his stats in various countries would also get improved in varying degrees.After that ,if we give more weightage to 'str: rate' & preference to performance in best team country(Westindies), performance in abroad countries, performance in home country in that order ,Kapil's performance would be worth much more than 85%. Now , even if we neglect all the above said matters w.r.t bowling,i don't rate Imran as high as once used to , because of the unfair tampering tactics he used for boosting his performances.On the contrary imagine Kapil doing the same & its effects on his stats. Coming to one dayers,Kapil was the best all rounder of the FAB4 of 80s.In batting where str: rate carries a lot of weightage he convincingly outscores Imran.In bowling, where econ: rate carries lot of weigtage , he had better econ: rate & longevity when compared to Imran , though both of them had almost similar avg:. And in WI & vs WI Kapil was the convincingly better. Another noticeble factor in one day bowling is that Imran played along with much better than or near calibre one day bowlers like Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir etc where as Kapil played along with Binny, Madanlal,Sandhu etc etc who were convincingly inferior to him.And who can say with out a doubt that Khan didn't bring his 'notorious unfair partner' in one dayers too. He was a brilliant captain too in his own right( his achievements need to be taken in the context of weak team especially bowling wise at his disposal) & a far better all round fielder to Imran. Imran was only a slightly better captain to Kapil when we consider the calibre bowlers he had at his disposal. why above Botham: In both batting & bowling in tests , Botham has slightly superior avg:s to Kapil, which gives the impression that he was the better all rounder.But Botham's bowling has 2 parts to it. In the first 4 years or so he was outstanding.But then he was in the company of great bowlers Willis & Underwood & he benefitted the most from such great bowling unit.But once Willis & Underwood retired & then thrust with the resposnsibility of spearheading the bowling attack Botham became a pale shadow of himself.He was downgoing so rapidly that had he bowled over 27000 balls in test cricket (Kapil's count) instead of the 21000+ he actually did, his avg: would have dropped a lot even further.More over Botham was a pale shadow as a bowler vs Windies & more importantly in Windies(best team of their time) which counts against him a lot. Kapil raised his bowling to great levels than normal against Windies. In test batting too people often project Botham's 14 100s to Kapil's 8 100s to claim that he was the better test batsman. Botham has slighly better bat avg: too.But Kapil was some 2 levels aggressive than Botham with a str: rate of 80.71 to Botham's 60.71.While Botham was a pale shadow of himelf vs Windies & in Windies , Kapil maintained his normal standrads or even went a little up further if we take all aspects into account.Botham didn't play in Pakistan too which was the 2nd best team of that time & bowling wise rivalled even Windies.More over vs India, the 2nd last team of his time(bowling wise very weak), he had great avg:. Even in big scores too,if we dig a little deep, we can see that despite such apparently convincing difference in no: of 100s, there is much more to ithttp://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/9163.html? class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=start;runsmin1=73;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=inningshttp://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30028.html? class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=start;runsmin1=73;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=innings From the above data we can see that despite such difference in count of 100s,there was nothing much to separate them in >73 scores.If any in runs/inns value Botham was better.But Kapil's level of dominance was some 2 levels above that of Botham. Just as in normal case , here too Kapil scored nearly 4 100s vs WI where as Botham has a solitary 81 that too at home. And against the 2nd last team India, Botham boosted his numbers. He didn't play in PAK either against Imran version 2.0 in the 80s. Now in one dayers, if we go thru stats Kapil was lot better in both batting & bowling.He won a world cup too.He was much bettercaptain than Botham.And in over all fielding too Kapil was better where as Botham was a slip specialist.All in all, I would say Kapil was better to Botham in all disciplines(i won't argue with any one who places Botham as a slightly better test batsman.For me even that is in favour of Kapil). why above Miller : Miller only played some 55 tests.Virtually didn't play any in Asia.So that is a big 'if' when we consider the fact that many players like Sehwag,Warner etc etc are/were so towering in their comfort zones but pedestrian in alien conditions.So in longevity & variety of conditions etc he lags a lot behind Kapil. 4. Ian Botham ; Better test batsman to Imran.Both Imran & Botham played along with great bowlers but Imran's was slightly better, Botham had lot more work density compared to Imran.And Botham too seems to have not resorted to unfair tactics. In one day batting Imran was lot better.But in bowling I would give it to Botham.Imran was batter captain where as Botham was better fielder 5. Imran khan Your thoughts & choices... Edited May 21, 2017 by rtmohanlal alighment problem tweaker and SLICKR392 2 Link to comment
Jimmy Cliff Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Sobers, Kallis, Imran, Miller, Botham. Honorable mention to Aubrey Faulkner, Mike Procter, Kapil, Hadlee, Greig, Flintoff, Cairns, Pollock, Goddard, Barlow, Mushtaq Mohammad, Richie Benaud and Alan Davidson who might just be the most under-rated cricketer of all time. Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 20, 2017 Author Share Posted May 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said: Sobers, Kallis, Imran, Miller, Botham. Honorable mention to Aubrey Faulkner, Mike Procter, Kapil, Hadlee, Greig, Flintoff, Cairns, Pollock, Goddard, Barlow, Mushtaq Mohammad, Richie Benaud and Alan Davidson who might just be the most under-rated cricketer of all time. If you do not take at all the context Kapil & Imran played in( i mean neglect longevity, workload & support bowling strength) & just neglect tampering allegations against Imran & his inflated bat avg: due to not outs & just go by bat & bowl avgs:s, placing of him above Kapil does not come as a surprise. But a bit curious? How Botham & Miller above Kapil? Rightarmfast 1 Link to comment
Jimmy Cliff Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 25 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said: If you do not take at all the context Kapil & Imran played in( i mean neglect longevity, workload & support bowling strength) & just neglect tampering allegations against Imran & his inflated bat avg: due to not outs & just go by bat & bowl avgs:s, placing of him above Kapil does not come as a surprise. But a bit curious? How Botham & Miller above Kapil? Imran (as well as Hadlee for that matter) purely as a bowler has more impact than Kapil as an all-rounder IMO. His batting (which I agree is inferior to Kapil) is just a bonus. Botham mostly for the first half of his career when he was arguably one of the top 3 players of all time and won matches for his side for fun. Miller for being the most balanced all-rounder of all time (near ATG bowler plus a decent middle order batsman). Texan 1 Link to comment
cric_fan Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 90% of OP is a essay on Kapil Asim 1 Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 6 hours ago, cric_fan said: 90% of OP is a essay on Kapil just specifies the reasons as to why i favour Kapil over Imran Botham, & Miller.Taking mere avg:s is absolute senseless. That is why the contexts in which these stats are achieved is also briefly described. For instance take Botham's & Kapil's batting avg:s .Going by avg:s alone Botham is the better batsman. But it does not work that way. Kapil was some 2 levels more aggressive with str: rate of 80.91 over Botham's 60.71 . Botham was a pale shadow of himself in Windies where as Kapil performed better than his normal self in Windies.Botham chickened out of Pakistan tours citing one reason or other especially in the 80s when Imran-version2( who was avg:ing 10-15,15-20 etc etc series after series) ,Wasim, Waqar,Qadir,Qasim,Sarfraz etc were rivalling even Windies bowlers in the matter of versatility.And he fed on the weak bowling units of the bottom placed Indian team(Kapil & other trundlers) to boost his avg:s immensely.Such factors do count Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 10 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said: Imran (as well as Hadlee for that matter) purely as a bowler has more impact than Kapil as an all-rounder IMO. His batting (which I agree is inferior to Kapil) is just a bonus. Botham mostly for the first half of his career when he was arguably one of the top 3 players of all time and won matches for his side for fun. Miller for being the most balanced all-rounder of all time (near ATG bowler plus a decent middle order batsman). If we neglect tampering factor( for me personally i can't take Imran's record as serious as I once used to because the allegations against him are so intense that even his own country men like Aamer Sohail,Sarfraz Nawaz,Rameez Raja, Shoaib Akhtar etc etc has so openly came out with statements related to same) no doubt in my mind that Imran was the better bowler as their difference in bowling avg: suggests.But just to take the difference in bowling avg: that is 29.64-22.81= 6.83 by completely neglecting the contexts they played in is as senseless as it can get. Kapil's avg: after bowling 21000 balls (Imran bowled some 19500 balls only) was 28.86 before his terminal decline started. That itself reduces the gap to 6.05.Then bowling with likes of Wasim,Waqar,Qadir etc etc is far different from being in the company of MadanLal,Binny Sastri etc etc.And Kapil just didn't miss a single test baring one and played non stop cricket thru out which can be termed as 'workdensity'. This element was truly reflected when his avg: went from 27.7 in first 62 tests to almost 36 in the next 26 tests when he just neglected adequate rest after his 'knee injury surgery' .These factors do affect career avg: . So when you say that 'Imran purely as a bowler has more impact than Kapil ' you need to take into account the effect of these factors on this 'impact' also. There are several stats that points to the effect of the above adversities on Kapil's end avg: . His 5 wkt haul count is same as that of Imran.Means when was fit & in form & in favourable conditions,he could demolish the opponent on his own.Once some body put forward a list of bowlers with the most share of top order wkts. Kapil came 3rd with almost 46%. To take 46% of top order wkts in a total of 434 wkts shows his ability of producing wicket taking balls frequently.It was just that he went for more runs by being the strike bowler & stock bowler at the same time because of having such weak support bowling unit & playing non stop cricket thru out his career. In Botham's case he was unparalleled in the first 4 years but Willis & Underwood contributed a lot to that.What happend to him when they retired? More over he couldn't do his magic against Windies either. Rightarmfast 1 Link to comment
Temujin Khaghan Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 my top 10 1) Imran Khan 2) Sobers 3) Kallis 4) Botham 5) Miller 6) Kapil 7) Ashwin 8) Flintoff 9) Shakib 10) Hadlee add Gilchrist and thats my allrounder XI batting order: Gilchrist Kallis Sobers Shakib Imran Ashwin Botham Kapil Miller Flintoff hadlee Prince_ 1 Link to comment
Jimmy Cliff Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 46 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said: If we neglect tampering factor( for me personally i can't take Imran's record as serious as I once used to because the allegations against him are so intense that even his own country men like Aamer Sohail,Sarfraz Nawaz,Rameez Raja, Shoaib Akhtar etc etc has so openly came out with statements related to same) no doubt in my mind that Imran was the better bowler as their difference in bowling avg: suggests.But just to take the difference in bowling avg: that is 29.64-22.81= 6.83 by completely neglecting the contexts they played in is as senseless as it can get. Kapil's avg: after bowling 21000 balls (Imran bowled some 19500 balls only) was 28.86 before his terminal decline started. That itself reduces the gap to 6.05.Then bowling with likes of Wasim,Waqar,Qadir etc etc is far different from being in the company of MadanLal,Binny Sastri etc etc.And Kapil just didn't miss a single test baring one and played non stop cricket thru out which can be termed as 'workdensity'. This element was truly reflected when his avg: went from 27.7 in first 62 tests to almost 36 in the next 26 tests when he just neglected adequate rest after his 'knee injury surgery' .These factors do affect career avg: . So when you say that 'Imran purely as a bowler has more impact than Kapil ' you need to take into account the effect of these factors on this 'impact' also. There are several stats that points to the effect of the above adversities on Kapil's end avg: . His 5 wkt haul count is same as that of Imran.Means when was fit & in form & in favourable conditions,he could demolish the opponent on his own.Once some body put forward a list of bowlers with the most share of top order wkts. Kapil came 3rd with almost 46%. To take 46% of top order wkts in a total of 434 wkts shows his ability of producing wicket taking balls frequently.It was just that he went for more runs by being the strike bowler & stock bowler at the same time because of having such weak support bowling unit & playing non stop cricket thru out his career. In Botham's case he was unparalleled in the first 4 years but Willis & Underwood contributed a lot to that.What happend to him when they retired? More over he couldn't do his magic against Windies either. Okay so you don't rate Imran because of the ball tampering allegations. Fine. How is Kapil a better all-rounder than Hadlee? Hadlee has almost as many wickets in about 45 fewer Tests at an amazing average and SR. His batting average isn't too far off Kapil (27 vs 31) I'd anyday have a player who averages 27 with the bat and 22 with the ball than someone who averages 31 and 29. And he didn't have great bowling support either. Didn't stop him from being an ATG bowler. Even if you ignore Kapil's poor phase after his injury, his average is nearly 28. Fact is, Kapil would always come up short against the likes of Sobers, Kallis, Hadlee, Miller and yes Imran because these guys were ATG level in one discipline. With Botham it's closer as Botham wasn't an ATG bowler either but Botham's peak itself was so good that despite sucking for almost 5-6 years at the end of his career he still ended up with better stats than Kapil. Link to comment
velu Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Prince_ said: Imran Daylight .............. Botham Sobers Kallis Shakib Kapil actor imran khan ? Link to comment
sandeep Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 RTM is one of the better posters around, but damn buddy. Just make a few paragraphs - don't make it so hard to read. Link to comment
Khota Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 @rtmohanlal. Good article and well written. Your points about Imran are so correct and important that they need to be brought out. Let me add something else. Besides his batting his bowling figures were inflated too. Ball tempering was a main issue. Cricket has been doing averages incorrectly for hundred years. Besides not outs Imran would line up and start bowling when tail enders came. This also inflated his averages. He was not the demi-god as the neighbors made him to be. Rightarmfast 1 Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, sandeep said: RTM is one of the better posters around, but damn buddy. Just make a few paragraphs - don't make it so hard to read. i actually posted it in several paragraphs .but when i am viewing it i too am getting alignment problem.But when i try to edit it , it appears as normal in original paragraphs.Some strange problem. Sorry for that Edited May 21, 2017 by rtmohanlal Link to comment
NameGoesHere Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Sobers, Kallis, Imran, Miller Botham. Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 5 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said: Okay so you don't rate Imran because of the ball tampering allegations. Fine. How is Kapil a better all-rounder than Hadlee? Hadlee has almost as many wickets in about 45 fewer Tests at an amazing average and SR. His batting average isn't too far off Kapil (27 vs 31) I'd anyday have a player who averages 27 with the bat and 22 with the ball than someone who averages 31 and 29. And he didn't have great bowling support either. Didn't stop him from being an ATG bowler. Even if you ignore Kapil's poor phase after his injury, his average is nearly 28. Fact is, Kapil would always come up short against the likes of Sobers, Kallis, Hadlee, Miller and yes Imran because these guys were ATG level in one discipline. With Botham it's closer as Botham wasn't an ATG bowler either but Botham's peak itself was so good that despite sucking for almost 5-6 years at the end of his career he still ended up with better stats than Kapil. tampering is just the 'permanently closed door' while evaluating Imran.No way I can appreciate sporting greatness achieved thru crooked ways. But even with out taking tampering into account I rate Kapil better(at the least, I just can't accept the verdict that Imran is way better as some of his fans & some analysts claim to be). In his first 130 meaningful inns(2 '0 not outs' that doesn't contribute anything to runs/inns value are removed) Kapil avg: ed 32.37 before his terminal decline due to old age started( keep in mind even specialists like Sachin ,Ponting,Dravid etc dropped in averages alarmingly in their terminal decline period .For instance Sachin avg:ed almost 57 in his first 177 tests. But in a matter of just 23 tests it went down to 53.88.But despite that I am sure analysts with atleast a bit of sense just do not take that avg: of 53.88 alone.They appreciate his longevity of 200 tests & the fact that he avg:ed almost 57 in his first 177 tests too.And for allrounders i think this factor is even more important.). Take note the below data gathered from cricinfo Imran 126 inns, 25 not out, 3807 runs, avg: 37.69 str:rate 47.52 runs/inns 30.21 Kapil 130 inns, 10 not out, 3884 runs, avg: 32.37 str:rate 84.40 runs/inns 29.88 Kapil 184 inns, 15 not out, 5248 runs, avg: 31.05 str:rate 80.91 runs/inns 28.52 Imran's 25 not outs in 126 inns inflates his avg: hugely.The best way to analyse not outs is to evaluate as to how he would have ended had he went on uninterrupted with not out scores and ended with just 10 not outs as Kapil.I am sure he wouldn't have avg:ed more than 35.25-35.5, in the process increasing runs/inns value slightly better.So till this point Imran is slightly better. But then there are 3 vital factors by which I can't rate Imran at the most 90% a tests batsman than Kapil .They are str: rate(84.4 :47.52), performance in Windies(the best team of their era.Not only in avg:, but in other factors like impact inns,dominating quality bowlers etc etc too they were poles apart), quality of mammoth inns on the avg: where Kapil ( this i am telling after analysing each and every 55+ inns of Imran & Kapil based on bowling quality faced,singlehanded effort, home/abroad ,match situation,pecentage of team total etc etc) was 2 levels above Imran.For instance take Kapil's 2 best inns of 129 in SAF & 100* in WI. They are comfortably better than Imran's 136 in AUS & 123 vs WI(his 2 best scores).Like wise there is a 2 level difference in big inns played be these two players on the avg: thru out. In bowling too, Kapil's bowling avg: was adversely affected severely by longevity, lack of support bowling unit & heavy workload about which I have described in detail already.To have Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir,Qasim for company is completely different from having Binny,Madanlal,Sastri,Sandhu etc etc.Longevity alone removed will make it 28.86 .I assume as to how Kapil would have ended had he bowled just 19500 balls as Imran did in the company of Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir,Qasim etc etc that too by taking adequate rest between tours(adversity in both these factors is emphatically reflected by that drop in avg: from 27.7 to 36 immediately after injury & surgery phase).I am sure Kapil would have ended with much lesser avg: ,i would say atleast around 26.85, which in turn would have vastly improved his numbers in individual countries too. Take note, even at that 28.86 avg: stage(at the end of 21000 balls),Kapil's str: rate(carries more weightage in tests) was 59.3( 53.7/59.3 = 90.56% as that of Imran) .And at that 28.86 avg: stage, if we cluster together avg:s of both these players in 5 abroad countries(which carries more weightage than home avg:)& sort , it is Kapil who comes up with top 2 values with his 23.11 in Windies(best team of their times) carrying the highest weightage.Now assume his avg: dropping from 28.86 to 26.85( with advantages in bowling support strength & work density that Imran enjoyed) all these avg:s in 5 foreign countries & str;rate too would have got even better which makes Kapil lot more than 22.81/26.85 = 85% a bowler than Imran. In one dayers, you only need to look at the details of fellow bowlers of Kapil & Imran.Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir all ended with better bowling avg:s than Imran(Wasim & Sarfraz in bowling econ: too).But Binny.Madanlal, Sastri,Sandhu etc were convincingly inferior bowlers to Kapil. Yet despite that Kapil emerged as the better one day bowler & better one day all rounder which makes it even more creditable. Wr.t captaincy , fielding etc I have earlier went in details.To add to that, a lot is made of Imran's duels with Windies & securing 3 drawn series results against them.But that Windies team, though still ranked NO: 1 was in transition phase with people like Lloyed,Garner,Roberts,Holding already retired.Ambrose ,Bishop were still new comers. And in some matches Viv,Marshall didn't play either. And more Importantly Imran had bowlers like Wasim,Waqar,Qadir to rely upon.On the other hand Kapil achieved some results with mediocre bowlers.All in all Imran was better captain, but only slightly.I think no need to talk of fielding.Isn't it? Now to Hadlee.He only played 134 inns.Though not as inflated as Imran's, 19 not outs in 134 inns is still a very high proportion.In same no: of inns Kapil avg:ed 32+ . kapil with around 84 str: rate was far more aggressive than Hadlee.More over in WI Kapil was far better.And big inns played by Kapil on the avg: too were levels avove that of Hadlee's.You take all these together and the difference is lot more than their plain avg:s suggest.ATG in 1 discipline counts here for little when the criteria is 'allrounder'. Here performance in weaker discipline carries more weightage. In bowling Hadlee too lacked support , but in work density Hadlee was just like Imran.In onedayers ? Kapil was far better in the weaker discipline batting. In fielding & captaincy too Kapil was better. Rightarmfast 1 Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Khota said: @rtmohanlal. Good article and well written. Your points about Imran are so correct and important that they need to be brought out. Let me add something else. Besides his batting his bowling figures were inflated too. Ball tempering was a main issue. Cricket has been doing averages incorrectly for hundred years. Besides not outs Imran would line up and start bowling when tail enders came. This also inflated his averages. He was not the demi-god as the neighbors made him to be. Appreciate your gesture .The main point is contexts they played in too need to be taken into account, rather than plain avg:s Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) Not sure such a topic has already been posted here in ICF. Anyways posting the same. Omitting wicket keepers because they are different sort of all rounders. My top5 1. Gary Sobers - Genius with the bat with around 58 avg: .Played in an era with much less protective gears than what is available now a days.Agreed that in his days media scrutiny was much lesser & his technique was not exposed to technical analysis as is the case now a days, but yet when considered the merits & demerits as a whole his achievement is legendary. He was a versatile left arm bowler who could bowl fast/medium, orthodox & chinaman who avg:ed around 34 with the ball.To add to that he was brilliant fielder. A real match winner who put magical performances with bat & ball together in several series. 2. Jaques Kallis - Calibre enough to avg: 55+ in these technology advanced & intense media scrutiny days.Much greater longevity than Sobers in both the disciplines.More of a grafter when compared to Sobers with the bat.Not only that he played both the formats of the game with such longevity. In bowling he took nearly 300 wkts at around 32 avg: . Yes... in bowling he benefitted a lot in the company of great bowlers like Donald , Pollock & Steyn, yet his achivement is nothing short of brilliant. He too put quite a few brilliant performances with both bat and ball in some series. 3. Kapil Dev - May spring a surprise because of him being placed above 'traditionally believed to be superior' all rounders like Imran, Botham & Miller. Reasons. why above Imran - Batting - Imran's bat avg: is hugely inflated by one 'not out' in every 5 inns. In a series at home vs AUS , he avg:ed 64 in 3 inns with 2 notouts by scoring only a total of 64 runs.To avg: 64 he actually needed to score 192 runs. Just look how vastly this 'not out' factor inflated the avg:. This, in the first half of his career when he was only a Stuart Broad calibre batsman. Similarly there are several not out inns of Imran all thru his career. Kapil played for so longer than Imran(184: 126 inns ) , he was destructive than even Viv Richards( In his first 126 inns his str: rate was 84+ which eventually dropped to 81 at the end of his career.Imran's was only 47.5) ,they were chalk & cheese apart in WI(best team of their times which matters a lot) with Kapil outscoring Imran in avg:,big inns:, str: rate etc etc.Kapil's big innings played on the avg: was atleast a level above to those of Imran's if we take into account factors like bowling quality,percentage of team score,home/abroad,single handed effort,match situation etc etc( this i am saying after having analysed each of their big inns in detail) .For instance take Kapil's 2 best inns of 129 vs SAF & 100* vs WI. Such inns are those even specialist batsmen like Sachin would badly wish to have in their kits.For these reasons I can't rate Imran at not more than 90% a test batsman to Kapil. In bowling too Kapil's avg: of 29.64 need to evaluated based on longevity,work density(first 88 tests in a period of just 8 years & 5 months) , lack of support bowling strength thru out his career.Kapil bowled his first 21000 balls(Imran bowled only some 19500 balls in tests) at 28.86 avg:. Kapil's avg: & str: rate was 27.7 & 54 respectively after 64 tests.But after his knee injury & surgery he just didn't take rest & played straight away which resulted in fetching only 64 wkts at around 35 avg: in next 26 tests(a case of placing country before self).I would mention this as an effect of 'work load' . Kapil had the likes of Binny,Madan lal,Sandhu, Sastri in company where as Imran had Wasim,Waqar,Iqbal Qasim,Qadir,Sarfraz etc ect all thru his career. All in all I imagine as to how Kapil's figures would have ended , had he bowled only some 19500 balls in a long span of 21 years in the company of bowlers like Wasim,Waqar etc etc(just like Imran did). I am sure his avg; would have been a lot better.So even with out advantages in factors ' work density' & 'support bowling strength' Kapil was 22.81/28.86 =79.03 % a bowler that Imran was. I think had Kapil got the advantages in these 2 factors he would have easily avg:ed around 26.85.Around 85% .Means, in that case his stats in various countries would also get improved in varying degrees.After that ,if we give more weightage to 'str: rate' & preference to performance in best team country(Westindies), performance in abroad countries, performance in home country in that order ,Kapil's performance would be worth much more than 85%. Now , even if we neglect all the above said matters w.r.t bowling,i don't rate Imran as high as once used to , because of the unfair tampering tactics he used for boosting his performances.On the contrary imagine Kapil doing the same & its effects on his stats. Coming to one dayers,Kapil was the best all rounder of the FAB4 of 80s.In batting where str: rate carries a lot of weightage he convincingly outscores Imran.In bowling, where econ: rate carries lot of weigtage , he had better econ: rate & longevity when compared to Imran , though both of them had almost similar avg:. And in WI & vs WI Kapil was the convincingly better. Another noticeble factor in one day bowling is that Imran played along with much better than or near calibre one day bowlers like Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir etc where as Kapil played along with Binny, Madanlal,Sandhu etc etc who were convincingly inferior to him.And who can say with out a doubt that Khan didn't bring his 'notorious unfair partner' in one dayers too. He was a brilliant captain too in his own right( his achievements need to be taken in the context of weak team especially bowling wise at his disposal) & a far better all round fielder to Imran. Imran was only a slightly better captain to Kapil when we consider the calibre bowlers he had at his disposal. why above Botham: In both batting & bowling in tests , Botham has slightly superior avg:s to Kapil, which gives the impression that he was the better all rounder.But Botham's bowling has 2 parts to it. In the first 4 years or so he was outstanding.But then he was in the company of great bowlers Willis & Underwood & he benefitted the most from such great bowling unit.But once Willis & Underwood retired & then thrust with the resposnsibility of spearheading the bowling attack Botham became a pale shadow of himself.He was downgoing so rapidly that had he bowled over 27000 balls in test cricket (Kapil's count) instead of the 21000+ he actually did, his avg: would have dropped a lot even further.More over Botham was a pale shadow as a bowler vs Windies & more importantly in Windies(best team of their time) which counts against him a lot. Kapil raised his bowling to great levels than normal against Windies. In test batting too people often project Botham's 14 100s to Kapil's 8 100s to claim that he was the better test batsman.Botham has slighly better bat avg: too.But Kapil was some 2 levels aggressive than Botham with a str: rate of 80.71 to Botham's 60.71.While Botham was a pale shadow of himelf vs Windies & in Windies , Kapil maintained his normal standards or even went a little up further if we take all aspects into account.Botham didn't play in Pakistan too which was the 2nd best team of that time & bowling wise rivalled even Windies.More over vs India, the 2nd last team of his time(bowling wise very weak), he had great avg:. Even in big scores too,if we dig a little deep, we can see that despite such apparently convincing difference in no: of 100s,there is much more to ithttp://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/9163.html? class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=start;runsmin1=73;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=inningshttp://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30028.html? class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=start;runsmin1=73;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=innings From the above data we can see that despite such difference in count of 100s,there was nothing much to separate them in >73 scores.If any in runs/inns value Botham was better.But Kapil's level of dominance was some 2 levels above that of Botham.Just as in normal case , here too Kapil scored nearly 4 100s vs WI where as Botham has a solitary 81 that too at home.And against the 2nd last team India, Botham boosted his numbers. He didn't play in PAK either against Imran version 2.0 in the 80s. Now in one dayers, if we go thru stats Kapil was lot better in both batting & bowling.He won a world cup too.He was much better captain than Botham.And in over all fielding too Kapil was better where as Botham was a slip specialist.All in all, I would say Kapil was better to Botham in all disciplines(i won't argue with any one who places Botham as a slightly better test batsman.For me even that is in favour of Kapil). why above Miller : Miller only played some 55 tests.Virtually didn't play any in Asia.So that is a big 'if' when we consider the fact that many players like Sehwag,Warner etc etc are/were so towering in their comfort zones but pedestrian in alien conditions.So in longevity & variety of conditions etc he lags a lot behind Kapil. 4. Ian Botham ; Better test batsman to Imran.Both Imran & Botham played along with great bowlers but Imran's was slightly better, Botham had lot more work density compared to Imran.And Botham too seems to have not resorted to unfair tactics. In one day batting Imran was lot better.But in bowling I would give it to Botham.Imran was batter captain where as Botham was better fielder 5. Imran khan Your thoughts & choices... Edited May 21, 2017 by rtmohanlal made alignment of the opening post almost perfect King Tendulkar 1 Link to comment
Tattieboy Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Gary Sobers number one and others you can put in any order you like... I stopped reading when you tell us Kapil Dev a more destructive batsman than Viv Richards, think ex cricketers and supporters around the world might disagree with that statement Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Tattieboy said: Gary Sobers number one and others you can put in any order you like... I stopped reading when you tell us Kapil Dev a more destructive batsman than Viv Richards, think ex cricketers and supporters around the world might disagree with that statement I just said Kapil was more destructive than Richards in the sense that Kapil's str: rate was almost 81 where as Richards was around 70 only. This, in a period when most of the other top order batsmen were striking in the 40s. I never said Kapil Dev was a more destructive 'batsman' than Viv Richards Link to comment
Rightarmfast Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 30 minutes ago, Tattieboy said: Gary Sobers number one and others you can put in any order you like... I stopped reading when you tell us Kapil Dev a more destructive batsman than Viv Richards, think ex cricketers and supporters around the world might disagree with that statement Did you consider that Richards didnt have to play against the most dangerous bowlers of his time, which were west Indians, but Kapil had to play against them? express bowling 1 Link to comment
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