TOP 5 all rounders of all time

[kira]

Just now, cric_fan said:

 

It his opinion. Why are you crying?

Tujh se kisne poocha be phateechar?

[putrevus]

6 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Dont think the illegal methods used by Imran inflated his stats just by a little. I totally believe that in all home matches, the bias in the umpiring too has inflated their nos. 

Having said that, no doubt Imran was a better bowler than Kapil. But I honestly dont think he was such a threat as a bowler. 

If you think Imran was not a threat as a bowler you are sadly mistaken.At his peak he suffered from shin injury which prevented him from bowling and he spent some years with Packers which I think greatly helped with his development after which he was a changed bowler.

 

If you give Ishant Sharma totally scuffed ball he would still not be Imran Khan or Akram or Younis.So we have to give them credit but what I object is Pakistanis think Imran was some how a very great all rounder. I really don't think he was a great allrounder , he was a bowler who could bat a Pakistani version of Ravi Shastri.

 

Kapil could have scored easily another 2000 runs if he had put some effort towards his batting but imagine being strike and stock bowler for more than a decade.

[Ultimate_Game]

6 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

For me

1. Imran

2. Sobers

3.Kallis

4. Hadlee

5.Kapil

 

IMO Hadlee should not be considered a true all-rounder. he was more of a bowler who could bat in the lower order and could never get into the team on the strength of his batting alone whereas others on the list could. Botham was more of a true all-rounder and could win matches with both bat or the ball. I would say even Keith Miller would be a better option than Hadlee.
 

[rtmohanlal]

23 hours ago, putrevus said:

@rtmohanlal while I agree Kapil was better batsman than Imran. Kapil was nowhere near the league of Viv so don't even go there. We have to give it to Imran for totally changing his action and becoming a genuine pace bowler from medium pacer. Kapil after 1984 knee surgery became a pale version of himself and as he started playing more odi cricket he lost his bite in his outswinger and that contributed greatly in his increased average and SR.

 

Kapil has better home record than away record and his record in England is horrible for a swing bowler.I am one of the biggest fan of Kaps but Imran was better bowler who could win more matches. Kapil like Botham never had a chance to grow as player because of the immense workload he had to carry starting from his first test. where as both Hadlee and Imran took time to mature and had lot of time to refine their skills.

 

Imran or Wasim or Waqar had their stats enhanced a little by ball tampering and home umpiring but they were definitely far superior bowlers than any Indian bowler and they had butter fingered fielder who gave them minimal support.

 

 

As far allrounders I would take Botham after Sobers on pure talent and at their peak. There was nothing that these two gentlemen could not do on cricket field.

 

         

i  only said ' Kapil was more destructive than Viv'. Neither taking any thing away  from Imran

for totally changing his action and becoming a genuine pace bowler from medium pacer.Kapil

at the first place got 'knee surgery' mainly because of playing nonstop cricket in his first 5 years & 5 months where he played  62 tests & took 247 wkts in addition to playing one dayers.Kapil after 1984 knee surgery became a pale version of himself  because he straight away started playing  with out taking any rest after his surgery.This resulted in him picking only 64 wkts in next 26 tests @ around 36 avg:. This i would call as 'heavy workload' as a result of placing country before self.

If Kapil has better home record than away record so has Imran.You admit that Kapil has immense workload & discredit him.But i take it as a cricketing context and evaluate Kapil based on that too along with lack of adequate support bowling strength. 

Yes Kapil's record in ENG was below avg:, but  'immense workload ' & 'lack of adequate support bowling strength' played huge role's in Kapil's end avg: as a whole & there by his avg:s in individual countries.

Another of your statement seemed a little comical to me.'Imran or Wasim or Waqar had their stats enhanced a little by ball tampering and home umpiring'. As per you it is only 'a little' despite the testimony of a lot of cricket related people.And you says they  had butter fingered fielders who gave them minimal support & gives more weightage to this .I think it is the opposite way.Again it is not as if Kapil had brilliant set of fielder to support him. Fielding became  more professional only in the 90s with Southafrica arriving headed by  the irreplacable Jhonty Rhodes & AUS becoming more professsional & skilled in 'sliding'  etc etc.Till then fielding was only amateurish with a few players like Logie,Viv,Azharuddin  being brillliant.

 

W.R.T Botham, i still remember those healthy discussions with you  few months before in one of the topics.Here too i have specified several reasons as to why I place Kapil above Botham.Yes..in that  4 year peak period Botham was magnificient against Packer weakened teams bar Windies(beat team of their era). Quite  naturally Botham put some brilliant all round performances.But that performances were hugely  influenced by him being in the company of Willis & Underwood. Even then he couldn't reach any where near to that level vs Windies.More over it is not about  numbers only  .Quality too matters. For instance Kapil's 100* & 3 wkts vs WI in WI  against that strong side  is lot better than scoring some 150 & taking 6 wkts  vs a mediocre side.To be more precise you can't take Coventry's 194  & Saeed Anwar's 194 as of the same worth despite having same numeric value.Yet I feel that Botham was slightly able to put  more all round performance together than Kapil.But for me, Kapil being basically better to Botham in all departments  namely  test batting,test bowling,  one day batting,one day bowling,fielding & captaincy eclipses Botham comfortably.

Edited May 23, 2017 by rtmohanlal
rectify error

[Tattieboy]

7 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

i  only said ' Kapil was more destructive than Viv'. Neither taking any thing away  from Imran

for totally changing his action and becoming a genuine pace bowler from medium pacer.Kapil

at the first place got 'knee surgery' mainly because of playing nonstop cricket in his first 5 years & 5 months where he played  62 tests & took 247 wkts in addition to playing one dayers.Kapil after 1984 knee surgery became a pale version of himself  because he straight away started playing  with out taking any rest after his surgery.This resulted in him picking only 64 wkts in next 26 tests @ around 36 avg:. This i would call as 'heavy workload' as a result of placing country before self.

If Kapil has better home record than away record so has Imran.You admit that Kapil has immense workload & discredit him.But i take it as a cricketing context and evaluate Kapil based on that too along with lack of adequate support bowling strength. 

Yes Kapil's record in ENG was below avg:, but  'immense workload ' & 'lack of adequate support bowling strength' played huge role's in Kapil's end avg: as a whole & there by his avg:s in individual countries.

Another of your statement seemed a little comical to me.'Imran or Wasim or Waqar had their stats enhanced a little by ball tampering and home umpiring'. As per you it is only 'a little' despite the testimony of a lot of cricket related people.And you says they  had butter fingered fielders who gave them minimal support & gives more weightage to this .I think it is the opposite way.Again it is not as if Kapil had brilliant set of fielder to support him. Fielding became  more professional only in the 90s with Southafrica arriving headed by  the irreplacable Jhonty Rhodes & AUS became more professsional & skilled in 'sliding'  etc etc.Till then fielding was only amature with a few players like Logie,Viv,Azharuddin  being brillliant.

 

W.R.T Botham, i still remember those healthy discussions with you  few months before in one of the topics.Here too i have specified several reasons as to why I place Kapil above Botham.Yes..in that  4 year peak period Botham was magnificient against Packer weakened teams bar Windies(beat team of their era). Quite  naturally Botham put some brilliant all round performances.But that performances were hugely  influenced by him being in the company of Willis & Underwood. Even then he couldn't reach any where near to that level vs Windies.More over it is not against numbers .Quality too matters. For instance Kapil's 100* & 3 wkts vs WI in WI  against that strong side  is lot better than scoring some 150 & taking 6 wkts  vs a mediocre side.To be more precise you can't take Coventry's 194  & Saeed Anwar's 194 as of the same worth despite having same numeric value.Yet I feel that Botham was slightly able to put  more all round performance together than Kapil.But for me, Kapil being basically better to Botham in all departments  namely  test batting,test bowling,  one day batting,one day bowling,fielding & captaincy eclipses Botham comfortably.

When I played cricket there were 3 disciplines,  batting bowling and fielding.  So which discipline are you speaking about that Kapil Dev was more destructive than Vivien Richards? I would argue Bothams performances were hampered by playing games with Willis and Underwood! ! His chances of taking 5+ wickets were reduced  greatly,  where Kapil  Dev had a greater chance of taking 10 wickets  each test 

[rtmohanlal]

24 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

When I played cricket there were 3 disciplines,  batting bowling and fielding.  So which discipline are you speaking about that Kapil Dev was more destructive than Vivien Richards? I would argue Bothams performances were hampered by playing games with Willis and Underwood! ! His chances of taking 5+ wickets were reduced  greatly,  where Kapil  Dev had a greater chance of taking 10 wickets  each test 

You says you have played cricket & so have  i. I just said Kapil was more destructive than Viv in batting  with a str: rate of 81 to Viv's 70.Any dount in that?  Never did i say that Kapil was a more 'destructive batsman' than Viv which take into account batting avg: too.

 

As per you saying   'Bothams performances were hampered by playing games with Willis and Underwood!' Oh .. then what happend to the same Botham when both Willis &Underwood retired & was thrust with the responsibility of spearheading the bowling attack.?As per you, then Botham 's performances needed to have improved significantly. But it went the opposite. why why why?

[Tattieboy]

11 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

You says you have played cricket & so have  i. I just said Kapil was more destructive than Viv in batting  with a str: rate of 81 to Viv's 70.Any dount in that?  Never did i say that Kapil was a more 'destructive batsman' than Viv which take into account batting avg: too.

 

As per you saying   'Bothams performances were hampered by playing games with Willis and Underwood!' Oh .. then what happend to the same Botham when both Willis &Underwood retired & was thrust with the responsibility of spearheading the bowling attack.?As per you, then Botham 's performances needed to have improved significantly. But it went the opposite. why why why?

You quoted a knee injury to Kapil, you omitted to mention a Botham injury which required spinal infusion surgery.  

[Khota]

8 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

For me

1. Imran

2. Sobers

3.Kallis

4. Hadlee

5.Kapil

If you condone cheating then Imran in the list is OK. No one cheated at the level he did. Even then he was not all that.

[rtmohanlal]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

If you think Imran was not a threat as a bowler you are sadly mistaken.At his peak he suffered from shin injury which prevented him from bowling and he spent some years with Packers which I think greatly helped with his development after which he was a changed bowler.

 

If you give Ishant Sharma totally scuffed ball he would still not be Imran Khan or Akram or Younis.So we have to give them credit but what I object is Pakistanis think Imran was some how a very great all rounder. I really don't think he was a great allrounder , he was a bowler who could bat a Pakistani version of Ravi Shastri.

 

Kapil could have scored easily another 2000 runs if he had put some effort towards his batting but imagine being strike and stock bowler for more than a decade.

your statement '.At his peak he suffered from shin injury which prevented him from bowling and he spent some years with Packers which I think greatly helped with his development after which he was a changed bowler' leads to a bit of confusion .Packer cricket occured in 78-80.Here it might have greatly helped with his development after which he was a changed bowler.Also ,if you mean that at his peak Imran suffered from shin injury which prevented him from bowling further & there by his stats, i  can't accept with that statement. Imran during a period of about 14.5 months  from  13 Nov 81 to 30 Jan 83  played 16 tests on the trot and benefitted the most from it as a fast bowler(surely tampering too played a huge part).It was for the first time in his career that he was playing with such work density. After playing with such work density his shin was badly affected.In his book 'all round view' he clearly states that  the first doctor whom he approached exclaimed as to how his shin bone didn't get scatter after putting so much stress on the shin.In other words, Imran played with such work load ,placed such huge  strain  on his shin,  reaped the benefits in the form of bucket load of wkts & paid the price.So to say 'had the injury not occured' etc etc is absolutely meaningless.After all you can't have it both ways .Isn't it?

Edited May 23, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[rtmohanlal]

35 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

You quoted a knee injury to Kapil, you omitted to mention a Botham injury which required spinal infusion surgery.  

i am hearing about Botham's injury for the first time.Agreed .Yet ,to believe that  a bowler who avg:ed below 21  in his first 42  tests  in a time span of just 4 years & 4 months  could

avg: only  a paltry  37.56  in his next 60 tests played in over 10.5 months solely because of a surgery is very very difficult.

 

It more than points to Botham lacking discipline,fitness & more importantly  'the ability to  spearhead the bowling in the absence of 'great' category bowlers'.

Edited May 23, 2017 by rtmohanlal
need updation

[Tattieboy]

5 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

i am hearing about Botham's injury for the first time.Agreed .Yet ,to believe that  a bowler who avg:ed below 21  in his first 42  tests  in a time span of just 4 years & 4 months  could

avg: only  a paltry  37.56  in his next 60 tests played in over 10.5 months solely because of a surgery is very very 

You obviously don't know about Ian Botham. ..living the life he did was not one to be copied if you wanted to be a sportsman at International level. When Kapil Dev was getting up in the morning Botham  was just going to bed.

 

Let's just agree both were great all rounders but Gary Sobers was the greatest 

[Rightarmfast]

10 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

i am hearing about Botham's injury for the first time.Agreed .Yet ,to believe that  a bowler who avg:ed below 21  in his first 42  tests  in a time span of just 4 years & 4 months  could

avg: only  a paltry  37.56  in his next 60 tests played in over 10.5 months solely because of a surgery is very very difficult.

 

It more than points to Botham lacking discipline,fitness & more importantly  'the ability to  spearhead the bowling in the absence of 'great' category bowlers'.

Ian Botham was a known drug addict. high on cocaine and the likes. Him taking a moral high stand these days is a bit of joke!

[rtmohanlal]

10 hours ago, Tattieboy said:

You obviously don't know about Ian Botham. ..living the life he did was not one to be copied if you wanted to be a sportsman at International level. When Kapil Dev was getting up in the morning Botham  was just going to bed.

 

Let's just agree both were great all rounders but Gary Sobers was the greatest 

That is what i said ...lack of discipline....whom to blame other than himself ?

[rtmohanlal]

9 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Ian Botham was a known drug addict. high on cocaine and the likes. Him taking a moral high stand these days is a bit of joke!

yes... on a side note, every body is highlighting Botham's 4 years 4 months peak period consisting of 42 tests where he was giving  admittedly out of the world performances.But they neglect the role of 'Willis & Underwood', Packer cricket weakened opponents , & utter pathetic performances vs WI  in this period. Yet another thing is just like a brilliant peak influenced by the above 3 factors, there is even more pathetic trough  period of over 10 years & 60 tests where he was not even 60% the player he used to be.That need to be taken into account too.

 

 

 

[Tattieboy]

13 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

That is what i said ...lack of discipline....whom to blame other than himself ?

Blame for what?  ..

[Tattieboy]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

Ian Botham was a known drug addict. high on cocaine and the likes. Him taking a moral high stand these days is a bit of joke!

Ian Botham was banned from cricket for a period after admitting smoking canibas.  I suggest you think before  making a statement like that, you could find yourself in a lot of trouble legally 

[Nikhil_cric]

20 hours ago, kira said:

Side effect of spending too much time on the green ghetto, you have let down the rashtra a lot, first you rate that phateechar uae khan above dravid and now this #pathetic

Haha :) Do I know you from PP? The rashtra forever brother. I actually rate Dravid higher. What I meant was YK's record was comparable. However, it is important to be objective while comparing no matter what our personal preferences are. 

[Nikhil_cric]

20 hours ago, Kerberos said:

Imran ahead of sobers.

 

 

Yeah. Sobers' bowling is a little overrated IMO. Imran at his peak was an extremely destructive bowler and later in was a good test match batsman.

[Nikhil_cric]

15 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

IMO Hadlee should not be considered a true all-rounder. he was more of a bowler who could bat in the lower order and could never get into the team on the strength of his batting alone whereas others on the list could. Botham was more of a true all-rounder and could win matches with both bat or the ball. I would say even Keith Miller would be a better option than Hadlee.
 

The problem with Botham was that the others were ATG level good in their primary suit - Imran/Hadlee in bowling and Sobers/Kallis in batting so I picked those 4 and then 5 was between Botham and Kapil and I went for Kapil because he didn't have the luxury of bowling with Bob Willis or get to bowl in English conditions for the majority of his career. 

[Nikhil_cric]

12 hours ago, Khota said:

If you condone cheating then Imran in the list is OK. No one cheated at the level he did. Even then he was not all that.

Fairly convinced that a lot of English/OZ/SAF/NZ/ bowlers probably tampered with the ball as well.