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rtmohanlal

Top 10 cricketers of the last 40 years

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Well, the title says it all. Criterias used are these.Batting being the toughest discipline gets more weightage of all disciplines.Fair play, controversy free  etc get lots of weightages.All rounders get more weightages.Being great across formats, being brilliant despite in a weak team get more 

weightages.Longevity &  extra specialities get more weightages.

 

My  top 10. And reasons too.

 

1. Viv Richards -   So far aggressive from his contemporaries in both formats,equally  brilliant in both formats,never wearing a helmet and all  these   from one of the most difficult eras for batting  makes him the top choice for me.

2. Kallis - Great in batting (most difficult discipline) , good bowler, equally brilliant in 2 formats, longevity etc etc.

3. Sachin - Great record in both formats, most longevity  in both formats, being the most complete batsman in each and every sense,

                pressure of huge expectations, a useful bowler  etc etc.

4. Gilchrist - a great wicket keeper & a great batsman combined. In short great in 2 disciplines .Being a wicket Keeping all rounder in general 

                  is easier than a  bat-bowl all rounder & hence placed below Kallis. Him  being a part of a great team had its advantages too.

5. Kapil Dev -Sure to raise a few eye brows. Both his bowling & batting stats need to be evaluated based on some vital factors when   

                  compared with fellow allrounders.Longevity,lack of support bowling,work density  are the bowling factors. In batting he was 

                 aggressive than even Viv, was the undisputed best  in WI( the best team  of 80s) in both batting & bowling  among top all 

                 rounders, played several high quality aggressive  back to the wall knocks against high quality bowling units etc etc . Was the 

                 top  one day all rounder of his times,a brilliant captain who achieved some great results with a fairly weaker team,a brilliant all    

                round fielder too. In some of my earlier posts I have detailed a lot as to why I regard him so highly.  

6. Lara - His penchant for big scores is well known.  Being in a relatively weaker team supports more for his case.

 

7. Ambrose - Deadly  fast bowler, equally great in both formats,enough longevity etc etc.

8. Botham - In his peak no body could give such brilliant all round  performances as he could. But this peak was hugely helped by  packer 

                 cricket,presence of 2 great  fellow bowlers too.Conversely his rough was exactly opposite to that of his peak.More over he was 

                 a pale  shadow of his normal self in Windies.Was not in the level of Kapil as a one day player either.  

9. Shane Warne - A brilliant artist of one of the hardest disciplines, leg spin  bowling.And he turned out to be the most successful one 

                 in  every aspects in both formats.One of the key components in making the Aussies the top team of their time.

10. Mcgrath -A great  fast bowler with such longevity in both formats of the game.Like Warne, he was another key member for the 

                 dominance of that Australian team. But was less faster &  less nastier than Ambrose. Presence of Warne helped him a lot too.  

11. Ponting - Such great record in both formats of the game.To add to that his longevity &  great all round fielding too.

 

First I missed Lara .Hence I updated it .So Ponting in the list remains  at 11th.Your thoughts.

Edited by rtmohanlal
small updation

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12 minutes ago, sandeep said:

wow, SMG not in top 10.   I think you have a bit of a kangaroo hangover and slight recency bias.  

Firstly I  entirely missed out on Lara at first. How can  this be bias? . Gilchrist, Warne & Mcgrath were the stand out performers in that Aussie line up.They made Aussies one of the GOAT teams.

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27 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Firstly I  entirely missed out on Lara at first. How can  this be bias? . Gilchrist, Warne & Mcgrath were the stand out performers in that Aussie line up.They made Aussies one of the GOAT teams.

Having Ponting in there and no SMG and Lara makes it a kangaroo hangover.  Now that you've updated your list, its addressed a bit.  

 

4 middle order bats, zero openers.  Poor openers, all the hard work while the glory goes to the middle order.

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55 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Give me a bit and I will revert on this. However, no matter how biased we are, Wasim Akram can never be missed from any list. Only if you are excluding him for his cheating ways and tampering ways, I would understand.

yeah... Akram was hugely talented for a fast bowler.He made fast bowling a great entertainment with his loads of variations.

But strong allegations of tampering against him  take some glows of his records. And surprisingly his record  against top order batsmen paled in comparison to some one like Mcgrath who made a habit of taking top order wickets.

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34 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Having Ponting in there and no SMG and Lara makes it a kangaroo hangover.  Now that you've updated your list, its addressed a bit.  

 

4 middle order bats, zero openers.  Poor openers, all the hard work while the glory goes to the middle order.

tell me one opener who was really great across formats with required longevity.Openers do not require that higher an avg: as that of a middle order batsmen. Yet tell me one who can challenge  any one from my list. The names that come to mind are Haynes,Greenidge,Kirsten,Hayden,Sehwag,Jaysurya,Smith... all have holes in their stats.

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5 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

tell me one opener who was really great across formats with required longevity.Openers do not require that higher an avg: as that of a middle order batsmen. Yet tell me one who can challenge  any one from my list. The names that come to mind are Haynes,Greenidge,Kirsten,Hayden,Sehwag,Jaysurya,Smith... all have holes in their stats.

Of course they do - if you compare them to middle order bats - you have to account for the fact that opening batsmen face tougher conditions than the MO.

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3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Of course they do - if you compare them to middle order bats - you have to account for the fact that opening batsmen face tougher conditions than the MO.

agreed. but the fact is that there are no openers to challenge the batsmen  from my list.The nearest names are Hayden & Smith. Hayden avg:s  50+ & 40+ respectively in both formats .Smith have  around 48  & 38 respectively.But both have enough other holes in their records if you dig in little a bit deeper into their stats.Not adequate enough to replace any of the names I specified.

Viv,Sachin,Lara & Ponfing   are definitely above Smith & Hayden even by general conception.

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6 minutes ago, sourab10forever said:

Make Kohli the 11th entry

Kohli ? Hope you are not joking .As of now he has lot of flaws in his test record.No longevity, not even 50  avg: , a paltry 13 avg: in ENG.... Kohli has a long way to go.  

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Picking 10 best players in the last 40 years is an impossible task.  

 

I will just give my pool to choose from and not in any order

 

I have left out current players unless nearing retirement.

 

 

 

Batsmen - Tendulkar, Richards, Lara, Gavaskar, Ponting, Sehwag, Hayden

 

All-rounders -- Kallis, Imran, Hadlee

 

Pacers -- McGrath, Marshall, Garner, Ambrose, Holding, Steyn, Donald, Akram

 

Spinners -- Warne, Murali, Kumble, 

 

Keeper - Gilchrist

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19 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Picking 10 best players in the last 40 years is an impossible task.  

 

I will just give my pool to choose from and not in any order

 

I have left out current players unless nearing retirement.

 

 

 

Batsmen - Tendulkar, Richards, Lara, Gavaskar, Ponting, Sehwag, Hayden

 

All-rounders -- Kallis, Imran, Hadlee

 

Pacers -- McGrath, Marshall, Garner, Ambrose, Holding, Steyn, Donald, Akram

 

Spinners -- Warne, Murali, Kumble, 

 

Keeper - Gilchrist

Sangakara the test batsman.

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15 hours ago, sourab10forever said:

Make Kohli the 11th entry

Above Marshall, Imran and SMG. Let Kohli achieve no 1 test ranking in his career first. He is not even among top 3 batsman in world.

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5 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Ambrose, Lara and Ponting  and no Marshall, no Imran, no SMG. Strange list. 

Marshall belonged to perhaps the greatest team of all time, especially bowling wise. Hence he  enjoyed a bit more support  from the 'team work' than the other 3 bowlers in the list.And Marshall was not equally brilliant in both formats like the other 3.He didn't have their longevity either.

SMG at the best was only a good category batsman in one dayers. He lacked longevity in  one dayers too.

And w.r.t Imran , as I have always maintained taking the difference between plain bat avg: & bowl avg: is as sense less as it can get.Imran's bat avg: is hugely inflated by not outs.Kapil's murderous str: rate, his record in West Indies & the difference in quality  between their big inns on the average in every sense(which i  have personally analysed very deeply) makes Kapil convincingly better a batsman for me. In test bowling too, Kapil's longevity,support bowling unit strength & work density played a huge part in

deceiding his end avg:. And in one dayers Kapil was the better all rounder.If Imran was slightly better captain, Kapil was even more better all round fielder.So all in all , for me Kapil was the better all rounder(at the least I just can't accept with some body who considers Imran convincingly superior to Kapil.In other words they were at least on same levels ).

Now taking into account  the fact of tampering allegations against  Imran , that is the final nail on the coffin with even dismissing all the above said matters.This places Botham too above Imran. 

Edited by rtmohanlal

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19 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Marshall belonged to perhaps the greatest team of all time, especially bowling wise. Hence he  enjoyed a bit more support  from the 'team work' than the other 3 bowlers in the list.And Marshall was not equally brilliant in both formats like the other 3.He didn't have their longevity either.

SMG at the best was only a good category batsman in one dayers. He lacked longevity in  one dayers too.

And w.r.t Imran , as I have always maintained taking the difference between plain bat avg: & bowl avg: is as sense less as it can get.Imran's bat avg: is hugely inflated by not outs.Kapil's murderous str: rate, his record in West Indies & the difference in quality  between their big inns on the average in every sense(which i  have personally analysed very deeply) makes Kapil convincingly better a batsman for me. In test bowling too, Kapil's longevity,support bowling unit strength & work density played a huge part in

deceiding his end avg:. And in one dayers Kapil was the better all rounder.If Imran was slightly better captain, Kapil was even more better all round fielder.So all in all , for me Kapil was the better all rounder(at the least I just can't accept with some body who considers Imran convincingly superior to Kapil.In other words they were at least on same levels ).

Now taking into account  the fact of tampering allegations against  Imran , that is the final nail on the coffin with even dismissing all the above said matters.This places Botham too above Imran. 

DIfference between Imran as a bowler and Kapil as bowler is more than Kapil as batsman and Imran as batsman. Lack of support doesn't change the fact that Imran is consistently rated as one of the best pacer in history of test cricket.

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I cannot understand why Viv Richards' is considered brave because he does not wear helmet?

 

Viv chose not to wear a helmet, nobody forced him to do so. And this is cricket, it's a game not a war. You get credit for scoring runs and not by displaying macho behaviour by showing how you don't fear fast leather ball. Greenidge wore a helmet most of his career against fast bowlers, does that make him less of a man? I don't think so.

 

I have nothing against Viv, he's probably the greatest player of fast bowling the game has ever seen, but I don't buy all those romanticized talks of his bravery of not wearing a helmet.

Edited by MechEng

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14 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

DIfference between Imran as a bowler and Kapil as bowler is more than Kapil as batsman and Imran as batsman. Lack of support doesn't change the fact that Imran is consistently rated as one of the best pacer in history of test cricket.

first removing longevity,  Kapils' avg: stood at 28.86 after first  21000 balls.(hope you would agree on this because had Imran went on bowling 27000+ balls as Kapil did his avg: would have reached at far more than 22.81.This  is because of the factor of terminal decline, which is the most severely affected  for 'all rounders' because of their multi tasks in hand)

So 22.81/28.86 = 79% a bowler to Imran.

Now just assume that Kapil bowled these 21000 balls  by taking as much breathing space as Imran did between tours(this is most emphatically reflected in Kapil's dip in stats due to not taking adequate rest & there by not getting his injury & surgery completely healed after the knee surgery of his in 1983), with the same sort of support bowling strength that Imran enjoyed(playing in the company of Waqar,Wasim & other calibre bowlers  is vastly different than that in the company  of Binny, Madanlal & co), I  am sure that  Kapil would have ended at around 26.85 avg: .

So  22.81/26.85 = 85% a bowler to Imran.

Naturally  when avg: increases as a whole, the avg:s in individual countries too would improve.After that, giving more weightage to str: rate than econ: in tests, most weightage to avg: & str: rate   in best country(Windies), more  weightage to avg:s & str: rates in abroad non minnow countries    than that in home country etc etc, that efficiency increases to lot more than 85%.This because even at 28.86(79% efficiency stage) stage, Kapil's str:rate stood at around 91% as that of Imran,his

avg: was the better in Windies, his avg:s in other non minnow abroad countries  differed much lesser from Imran's corresponding figures than what was the case with home conditions.

So all in all, in my mind Kapil was around 87% a test bowler to that of Imran.And in batting I can't place Imran at more than 90% to Kapil because of vast str: rate difference( 47.52:84+), figures in WI, & qlty difference on the avg: w.r.t big inns played.     So Kapil was  slightly better a test all rounder for me because 10% difference in weaker discipline(batting)  is more than enough to over come 13% difference in bowling as the criteria at our hand being 'better all rounder' .

   In one dayers Kapil was better all rounder. Though Imran was slightly better captain, Kapil was even better all round fielder.

 

Before considering all the above,take into account ball tampering. That itself is enough  to place Kapil above Imran.   

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

first removing longevity,  Kapils' avg: stood at 28.86 after first  21000 balls.(hope you would agree on this because had Imran went on bowling 27000+ balls as Kapil did his avg: would have reached at far more than 22.81.This  is because of the factor of terminal decline, which is the most severely affected  for 'all rounders' because of their multi tasks in hand)

So 22.81/28.86 = 79% a bowler to Imran.

Now just assume that Kapil bowled these 21000 balls  by taking as much breathing space as Imran did between tours(this is most emphatically reflected in Kapil's dip in stats due to not taking adequate rest & there by not getting his injury & surgery completely healed after the knee surgery of his in 1983), with the same sort of support bowling strength that Imran enjoyed(playing in the company of Waqar,Wasim & other calibre bowlers  is vastly different than that in the company  of Binny, Madanlal & co), I  am sure that  Kapil would have ended at around 26.85 avg: .

So  22.81/26.85 = 85% a bowler to Imran.

Naturally  when avg: increases as a whole, the avg:s in individual countries too would improve.After that, giving more weightage to str: rate than econ: in tests, most weightage to avg: & str: rate   in best country(Windies), more  weightage to avg:s & str: rates in abroad non minnow countries    than that in home country etc etc, that efficiency increases to lot more than 85%.This because even at 28.86(79% efficiency stage) stage, Kapil's str:rate stood at around 91% as that of Imran,his

avg: was the better in Windies, his avg:s in other non minnow abroad countries  differed much lesser from Imran's corresponding figures than what was the case with home conditions.

So all in all, in my mind Kapil was around 87% a test bowler to that of Imran.And in batting I can't place Imran at more than 90% to Kapil because of vast str: rate difference( 47.52:84+), figures in WI, & qlty difference on the avg: w.r.t big inns played.     So Kapil was  slightly better a test all rounder for me because 10% difference in weaker discipline(batting)  is more than enough to over come 13% difference in bowling as the criteria at our hand being 'better all rounder' .

   In one dayers Kapil was better all rounder. Though Imran was slightly better captain, Kapil was even better all round fielder.

 

Before considering all the above,take into account ball tampering. That itself is enough  to place Kapil above Imran.   

 

 

 

 

Some random numbers at best. Kapil never averaged below 26 after first probably 150 wickets. There are very little chances that he could have ended close to that. Otherwise he was late 20 averaging bowler most of the time. Imran had Wasim firing in late 80 (debut in 85?) and waqar in 90s (debut Dec 89). Imran bowled on his own most of his career (1971-1991). He had Wasim for doing well for his 3-4 years of his active bowling career.

Taking ratio of averages don't give you relative strength of bowlers because it's much more difficult to reduce by 5 points when you avg 35 than from 25-20. A simple distribution of bolwers with averages will show lower density of bowlers around 20-25 Mark and higher density around 28-34 mark. Ishant is not half the bowler McGrath or Steyn or Donald, forget about being 65-70% which their averages ratio would be.

 

Random number of 90% in batting. What's the importance of SR in test cricket? If you face more balls, then you allow more partnerships to grow. 

 

Imran scored more runs than Kapil did in same number of innings. Can't check stats atm but Imran had some 3800 runs in 126 innings and Kapil scored 3300 or 3500 runs in same number of innings. Test cricket is 5 days game. Team would benefit more from a lower order batsman scoring 35 from 70 balls than 30 in 40 balls. 

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Youre saying Ambrose is the greatest fast bowler of the last 40 years. Big claim

 

Id Suggest Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Steyn and Wasim should rank higher

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4 hours ago, MechEng said:

I cannot understand why Viv Richards' is considered brave because he does not wear helmet?

 

Viv chose not to wear a helmet, nobody forced him to do so. And this is cricket, it's a game not a war. You get credit for scoring runs and not by displaying macho behaviour by showing how you don't fear fast leather ball.

 

Cricket was war till the 1990s.

 

It was all about trying to hit the batsman on the body and trying to intimidate the batters.

 

It was all about macho behaviour and making the opposition afraid about physical injury.

 

A hit on the body drew much more appreciation from many stadium crowds rather than taking a wicket.

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Imran khan 

Shane Warne

Wasim akram 

Viv Richards

Glenn Mcgrath

Adam Gilchrist 

Ricky Ponting

Curtly ambrose

Muttiah Muralitharan 

Sachin Tendulkar 

 

Lol @ having Kapil dev on the list . I understand the whole point is to pick a team that you deem best but objectively kapil should be nowhere near such a list . 

He isnt rated by any neutral really and without being biased i feel that he was very mediocre compared to many others , perhaps a case of having him in the top 100 but nothing more .

 

 

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4 hours ago, sandeep said:

Dude, I like your posts, but this is some fuzzy math.

first longevity is removed from the equation.Kapil was in terminal decline after  first 21000  balls in his career.At that point he avg:ed 28.86.Imran in his whole career of some 19550 balls avg:ed 22.81. It is only sensible to assume that had Imran went on bowling some 27000+ balls like Kapil did, his avg: would have been far  more than 22.81.So I think this way when analysing Kapil's career  in that what would have been  his avg: had he bowled just 21000 balls only( the nearest milestone point as to that of Imran  where he avg:ed the best) in his entire career with advantages in both work density & support bowling unit  in the levels as Imran enjoyed ?

firstly 22.81/28.86 = 79% (when longevity alone removed)

Now I firmaly believe that with advantages in both work density & support bowling unit  in the levels as Imran enjoyed Kapil would have avg:ed around 26.85 , an increase by 2 from 28.86 .

22.81/26.86 = 85%.

You may agree or disagree with me with  regard to the extend by which these 2 factors would have improved Kapil's avg:. But you can't deny the postitive effects of these 2 factors by 'some' margin ? Isn't it ?

Playing with Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir,Iqbal Qasim is not the same as playing along with Binny,Madan lal, & co etc etc.Similarly bowling first 19500 balls in just '8 years & 5 months' is so different from doing that in long 21 years.Isn't it?

 

'

Edited by rtmohanlal

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6 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Cricket was war till the 1990s.

 

It was all about trying to hit the batsman on the body and trying to intimidate the batters.

 

It was all about macho behaviour and making the opposition afraid about physical injury.

 

A hit on the body drew much more appreciation from many stadium crowds rather than taking a wicket.

You're right, but that was a wrong approach. If South Africa loses a test series to Sri Lanka, would Sri Lanka colonize SA and exploit it's economy? No such thing happens because it's a game after all.

 

Fast bowling is awesome but we must also be considerate to a batsman's safety, a fatal injury would impact their whole life.

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9 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Some random numbers at best. Kapil never averaged below 26 after first probably 150 wickets. There are very little chances that he could have ended close to that. Otherwise he was late 20 averaging bowler most of the time. Imran had Wasim firing in late 80 (debut in 85?) and waqar in 90s (debut Dec 89). Imran bowled on his own most of his career (1971-1991). He had Wasim for doing well for his 3-4 years of his active bowling career.

Taking ratio of averages don't give you relative strength of bowlers because it's much more difficult to reduce by 5 points when you avg 35 than from 25-20. A simple distribution of bolwers with averages will show lower density of bowlers around 20-25 Mark and higher density around 28-34 mark. Ishant is not half the bowler McGrath or Steyn or Donald, forget about being 65-70% which their averages ratio would be.

 

Random number of 90% in batting. What's the importance of SR in test cricket? If you face more balls, then you allow more partnerships to grow. 

 

Imran scored more runs than Kapil did in same number of innings. Can't check stats atm but Imran had some 3800 runs in 126 innings and Kapil scored 3300 or 3500 runs in same number of innings. Test cricket is 5 days game. Team would benefit more from a lower order batsman scoring 35 from 70 balls than 30 in 40 balls. 

These are not some random numbers.I wonder as to why you dismiss them as 'random no:'.

 

first longevity is removed from the equation.Kapil was in terminal decline after  first 21000  balls in his career.At that point he avg:ed 28.86.Imran in his whole career of some 19550 balls avg:ed 22.81. It is only sensible to assume that had Imran went on bowling some 27000+ balls like Kapil did, his avg: would have been far  more than 22.81.So I think this way when analysing Kapil's career  in that what would have been  his avg: had he bowled just 21000 balls only( the nearest milestone point as to that of Imran  where he avg:ed the best) in his entire career with advantages in both work density & support bowling unit  in the levels as Imran enjoyed ?

firstly 22.81/28.86 = 79% (when longevity alone removed)

Now I firmaly believe that with advantages in both work density & support bowling unit  in the levels as Imran enjoyed Kapil would have avg:ed around 26.85 , an increase by 2 from 28.86 .

22.81/26.86 = 85%.

You may agree or disagree with me with  regard to the extend by which these 2 factors would have improved Kapil's avg:. But you can't deny the postitive effects of these 2 factors by 'some' margin ? Isn't it ?Hence this is not any 'random number', but basically, evaluating Kapil's  bowl avg: on the basis of adverse effects of  longevity, support bowling strength & work density.

Playing with Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir,Iqbal Qasim is not the same as playing along with Binny,Madan lal, & co etc

etc.Similarly bowling first 19500 balls in just '8 years & 5 months' is so different from doing that in long 21 years.Isn't it?

     Now you may highly doubt as to just because of the advantages in these 2 factors namely work density & support bowling unit  in the levels as Imran enjoyed , would Kapil's bowl avg:  have improved by 2 from 28.86 to 26.86.Here are some data to support my claims.

       Kapil had 247 wkts in his first 62 tests(4 wkts/test) in just 5 years & 5 months time.Then came the knee injury
and surgery. Kapil just ignored this and continued playing immediately.The result was only 64 wkts in next non stop 26 tests
(2.46 wkts/test) with in about 2.5 years time. In his first 62 tests he avg:ed 27.72.In the next 26 tests he avg:ed 35+.Had he taken complete rest and turned out to play again after getting this injury fully healed,  would his figures been so distorted in that it went from 4 wkts/test to  2.46 wkts/test? I don't think so.Similarly going by this incident there is every possible chance that despite him not being fully fit(this can be mentally or physically),he turned out to play. So Kapil placed country before self and hence his stats suffered.So this factor of 'playing too much  in too little time periods' or let us say 'work density' affected Kapil's stats adversely a lot.

          I  hand picked 88 tests(no: of tests that Imran played) of Kapil spread over
'his series with most number of wkts/tests'.i could find that he gathered 351 wkts from these 88 tests.Not much of a
difference from Imran who has 362 wkts from 88 tests.this is a true relfection of the effect that both 'longevity' and
'work load and attitude' combined had on Kapil's bowling figures. 

  Once some one posted some data w.r.t percentage of top order wkts of great bowlers.Kapil came 3rd in the list with 46+ %

of top order wkts despite playing a large no: of 131 tests. 

              All the above  data convince me about the 'extend' by which Kapil's bowl avg: would have improved had he bowled just 21000 balls only( the nearest milestone point as to that of Imran  where he avg:ed the best) in his entire career with advantages in both work density & support bowling unit  in the levels as Imran enjoyed.To me that +2 in avg: from 28.86 to 26.86 is just a realistic figure and not exaggerated by any stretch.

       Now w.r.t batting.

Imran    126 inns, 25 not out,  3807 runs, avg: 37.69   str:rate  47.52   runs/inns  30.21     
 Kapil    130 inns, 10 not out,  3884 runs, avg: 32.37   str:rate  84.40   runs/inns  29.88(after this milestone Kapil's

              terminal decline started)

   The above data is w.r.t Kapil's batting in first meaning ful 130 inns(In the above stats, Of the actual 132 inns in these 92 tests, two '0' not outs are removed because they contribute nothing to runs/inns value and so are dummy not outs) .You can see there is virtually no difference in runs/inns value. Another thing is how this large % age of not outs highly inflate Imran's bat avg:. The best way to evaluate Imran's bat avg: is to assume in practical  lines as to how his avg: would have ended ,had he went on uninterruptedly with his not out inns and  eventually remained not out only 10 times as Kapil did. I am just assuming here that he would have at the best put on some 300 runs more (20 runs/ inns. Even this is too much ) .So 3807 + 300 = 4107. Avg: = 4107/116 = 35.41. In this process ,agreed that his runs/inns value would have increased to 4107/126 = 32.59 

 

     Both Imran's & Kapil's avg: batting position thru out their career was  on the avg: 7.06 & 7.17 respectively.Not much of difference here.But  Kapil scored 29.88 runs/inns  in just  35.4 balls where as Imran scored  30.21 runs/inns  in  63.57 balls .

From the above  data, it can be assumed that what  Imran did generally was to  give support to top order batsmen above him,feed of from there 'well set' situation, then  get set and score runs in the company of lower order batsmen.What Kapil did in general was  to take on the bowlers and score runs almost single handedly in the company of lower order batsmen.For me the Kapil's case is  more vital & difficult because Imran could feed of from well set  batsmen before him  by playing out some balls before getting set. Naturally when Kapil played big inns, he did it all by himself which is even more difficult a task.On the other hand Imran fed of from well set batsmen even more when he scored big. I am saying this so assuredly because I have went thru each and every one of their big inns in detail.  In general when you are playing at 7th batting position, scoring fastly is more diffucult  & vital when compared to grinding it out .And this is even more so when playing big inns.Had there a  difference of atleast a 6 runs/inns  in favour of Imran , I would have agreed with you.But the difference being virtually nil ,29.88 : 30.21 Kapil's contribution of agressive scoring has more weightage for me.

      Now on a side note , late 30s to early 40s was the norm str: rate those days.It is there that Kapil's was 84.4 .Even Viv had only around 70. Take some one like Kallis.He scored some 5000+ runs more, avg:ed 5+ more than Viv. Why Viv is considered one of the undisputed legendary batsman  where as Kallis remains only one among the several  greats? Why??? It is because of Viv's aggresive batting(taking game to the opposition).In short, what Viv did emphatically (taking game to the opposition) 

at  middle order, Kapil did even more emphatically  at lower order with an  84.4 str: rate.This is truely reflected in almost all of Kapil's big inns.He destroyed quality bowling attacks all alone himself from precarious back to the wall team positions when he scored big.  Another factor is, Kapil was the best in every sense in Windies(best team of their era).So all in all ,if Kallis can't be placed at more than 93% in a Viv-Kallis comparison, I can't place  Imran at more than 90% in a Kapil-Imran compariso.n

         

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

These are not some random numbers.I wonder as to why you dismiss them as 'random no:'.

 

first longevity is removed from the equation.Kapil was in terminal decline after  first 21000  balls in his career.At that point he avg:ed 28.86.Imran in his whole career of some 19550 balls avg:ed 22.81. It is only sensible to assume that had Imran went on bowling some 27000+ balls like Kapil did, his avg: would have been far  more than 22.81.So I think this way when analysing Kapil's career  in that what would have been  his avg: had he bowled just 21000 balls only( the nearest milestone point as to that of Imran  where he avg:ed the best) in his entire career with advantages in both work density & support bowling unit  in the levels as Imran enjoyed ?

firstly 22.81/28.86 = 79% (when longevity alone removed)

Now I firmaly believe that with advantages in both work density & support bowling unit  in the levels as Imran enjoyed Kapil would have avg:ed around 26.85 , an increase by 2 from 28.86 .

22.81/26.86 = 85%.

You may agree or disagree with me with  regard to the extend by which these 2 factors would have improved Kapil's avg:. But you can't deny the postitive effects of these 2 factors by 'some' margin ? Isn't it ?Hence this is not any 'random number', but basically, evaluating Kapil's  bowl avg: on the basis of adverse effects of  longevity, support bowling strength & work density.

Playing with Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir,Iqbal Qasim is not the same as playing along with Binny,Madan lal, & co etc

etc.Similarly bowling first 19500 balls in just '8 years & 5 months' is so different from doing that in long 21 years.Isn't it?

     Now you may highly doubt as to just because of the advantages in these 2 factors namely work density & support bowling unit  in the levels as Imran enjoyed , would Kapil's bowl avg:  have improved by 2 from 28.86 to 26.86.Here are some data to support my claims.

       Kapil had 247 wkts in his first 62 tests(4 wkts/test) in just 5 years & 5 months time.Then came the knee injury
and surgery. Kapil just ignored this and continued playing immediately.The result was only 64 wkts in next non stop 26 tests
(2.46 wkts/test) with in about 2.5 years time. In his first 62 tests he avg:ed 27.72.In the next 26 tests he avg:ed 35+.Had he taken complete rest and turned out to play again after getting this injury fully healed,  would his figures been so distorted in that it went from 4 wkts/test to  2.46 wkts/test? I don't think so.Similarly going by this incident there is every possible chance that despite him not being fully fit(this can be mentally or physically),he turned out to play. So Kapil placed country before self and hence his stats suffered.So this factor of 'playing too much  in too little time periods' or let us say 'work density' affected Kapil's stats adversely a lot

Would have and should have doesn't work in test cricket. Those are as random as I have ever seen claiming without any basis.

 

Btw, why 26.86 and why not 26.82 or 26.87? 

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2 hours ago, MechEng said:

You're right, but that was a wrong approach. If South Africa loses a test series to Sri Lanka, would Sri Lanka colonize SA and exploit it's economy? No such thing happens because it's a game after all.

 

Fast bowling is awesome but we must also be considerate to a batsman's safety, a fatal injury would impact their whole life.

 

It was war, not in the sense of colonizing the defeated.... but in the sense that opponent teams wanted to hurt each other physically and make them grovel.

 

Watch the movie, " Fire in Babylon " and you will get an idea.

 

There were chants in Australian and West Indian stadiums wanting the bowler to hit the batsman on the body and hurt them bad.  

 

The world was a different place then and human safety was not that much of a concern.

 

I remember playing cricket as a school kid in the late '80s.... I was a tall, big kid and played with much older guys.....was often forced to bat using just one pad,  a pair of gloves and abdomen guard,  as equipments were not always available to anyone.  There was no 2nd pad and helmets were out of the question.   Guys 10 years older than me often bowled from 18 or 19 yards, bowling huge no balls, trying to hit me on the head with bouncers or beamers.  That was how cricket was played then.  

 

Everything was different then.

 

I know it was not the right approach but that was how it was.  Bleeding and getting injured was fairly common.

Edited by express bowling

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1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

Would have and should have doesn't work in test cricket. Those are as random as I have ever seen claiming without any basis.

 

Btw, why 26.86 and why not 26.82 or 26.87? 

26.86 is just a rounded figure in all probablity. if 'would have' & 'should have'  doesn't work, i do not find any meaning in one-one comparisons either. For instance, a bowler who bowled along with Wasim,Waqar,Iqbal Qasim would benefit a lot in numbers than another one who bowled with Binny,Madanlal,Maninder.This because likes of Wasim,Waqar with far more capacity to  create wicket taking deliveries in frequent intervals would change the match situations positively   considerably thru out the match.Naturally the bowler under consideration can benefit a lot especially econ: wise when compared to another bowler who has Binny,Madanlal  as partners who can't strike even in remotely closer levels  to Wasim,Waqar.This is only a matter of simple cricket sense, i feel.Any body who has watched  test cricket practically some what, can understand this.

 

And  even if  keeping aside what all I said , still I can't rate Imran the bowler just as I used to once  because of tampering allegations.The data 'Muloghonto' put forward  w.r.t his  tampering expertrise periods are really eye opening.As Balwinder Sandhu points out, he can't just place Imran above Kapil just for this matter alone.

Edited by rtmohanlal

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34 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

26.86 is just a rounded figure in all probablity. if 'would have' & 'should have'  doesn't work, i do not find any meaning in one-one comparisons either. For instance, a bowler who bowled along with Wasim,Waqar,Iqbal Qasim would benefit a lot in numbers than another one who bowled with Binny,Madanlal,Maninder.

Wasim joined Imran in 1985 and became a force bowler by 1987-88. How does Waqar comes in the equation. He started his career in Dec 1989, when Imran had stopped bowling frequently. 

 

Kapil bowler along with better spinners than Iqbal Qasim. Imran did well on his most of his career. 

 

This is like saying that SRT benefited from batting of Kohli and Pujara.

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42 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Wasim joined Imran in 1985 and became a force bowler by 1987-88. How does Waqar comes in the equation. He started his career in Dec 1989, when Imran had stopped bowling frequently. 

 

Kapil bowler along with better spinners than Iqbal Qasim. Imran did well on his most of his career. 

 

This is like saying that SRT benefited from batting of Kohli and Pujara.

Now let me get to the exact support bowling data of both Kapil & Imran.Imran's is for his entire career & Kapil's is for his first 21000 balls( the milestone before his terminal decline started) where he avg:ed 28.87. The 'extends' of support Imran got from Wasim & Waqar  and  all other bowlers  gets   included in this data.This data is obtained from an advanced filter search in cricinfo.

 

total PAK  39354 RUNS  1297 WKTS  AVG: 30.34
iMRAN       8258        362 WKTS  AVG: 22.81
OTHERS     31096        935 WKTS  AVG: 33.26

TOTAL IND  46175       1292 WKTS  AVG:  35.74
kAPIL      10222        354 WKTS  AVG:  28.87
OTHERS     35953    938 WKTS  AVG:  38.33

 

bowling support avg: of Imran is 33.26 & that of Kapil is 38.33.In other words if both IND and PAK consisted of 4 main bowlers each including Imran & Kapil in the team ,the other 3 bowlers of PAK  each avg:ed 33.26 while for IND each of them avg:ed  38.33.And this was the case in each match on the avg: both these players played.When we read as a whole, we can see as to how big the gap was between support bowling units .

 

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Now let me get to the exact support bowling data of both Kapil & Imran.Imran's is for his entire career & Kapil's is for his first 21000 balls( the milestone before his terminal decline started) where he avg:ed 28.87. The 'extends' of support Imran got from Wasim & Waqar  and  all other bowlers  gets   included in this data.This data is obtained from an advanced filter search in cricinfo.

 

total PAK  39354 RUNS  1297 WKTS  AVG: 30.34
iMRAN       8258        362 WKTS  AVG: 22.81
OTHERS     31096        935 WKTS  AVG: 33.26

TOTAL IND  46175       1292 WKTS  AVG:  35.74
kAPIL      10222        354 WKTS  AVG:  28.87
OTHERS     35953    938 WKTS  AVG:  38.33

 

bowling support avg: of Imran is 33.26 & that of Kapil is 38.33.In other words if both IND and PAK consisted of 4 main bowlers each including Imran & Kapil in the team ,the other 3 bowlers of PAK  each avg:ed 33.26 while for IND each of them avg:ed  38.33.And this was the case in each match on the avg: both these players played.When we read as a whole, we can see as to how big the gap was between support bowling units .

Other excelled with better bowling of Imran. Kapil wasn't that good to help other bowlers?

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17 hours ago, the don said:

Imran khan 

Shane Warne

Wasim akram 

Viv Richards

Glenn Mcgrath

Adam Gilchrist 

Ricky Ponting

Curtly ambrose

Muttiah Muralitharan 

Sachin Tendulkar 

 

Lol @ having Kapil dev on the list . I understand the whole point is to pick a team that you deem best but objectively kapil should be nowhere near such a list . 

He isnt rated by any neutral really and without being biased i feel that he was very mediocre compared to many others , perhaps a case of having him in the top 100 but nothing more .

 

 

:laugh:

 

A Kapil/Imran discussion is almost always sure to snag this guy from lurking. :fishing:

 

Can't blame him though.  All the greenbros have been brainwashed to fanatically worship the playboy from Pindi.  Om Imranaay Namaha!  Sorry, don't know the Arabic version :p:

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Considering all three formats :

 

 

Gilly 

Virat 

Viv Richards

Tendulkar 

Imran 

Kapil

Steyn

Warne

Marshall 

McGrath

 

Next 10 

 

SMG

G smith

Wasim  

Dhoni 

Dravid 

Ponting 

Sanga 

Sehwag

Kumble 

Ambrose 

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On 8/9/2017 at 11:00 PM, Trichromatic said:

Some random numbers at best. Kapil never averaged below 26 after first probably 150 wickets. There are very little chances that he could have ended close to that. Otherwise he was late 20 averaging bowler most of the time. Imran had Wasim firing in late 80 (debut in 85?) and waqar in 90s (debut Dec 89). Imran bowled on his own most of his career (1971-1991). He had Wasim for doing well for his 3-4 years of his active bowling career.

Taking ratio of averages don't give you relative strength of bowlers because it's much more difficult to reduce by 5 points when you avg 35 than from 25-20. A simple distribution of bolwers with averages will show lower density of bowlers around 20-25 Mark and higher density around 28-34 mark. Ishant is not half the bowler McGrath or Steyn or Donald, forget about being 65-70% which their averages ratio would be.

 

Random number of 90% in batting. What's the importance of SR in test cricket? If you face more balls, then you allow more partnerships to grow. 

 

Imran scored more runs than Kapil did in same number of innings. Can't check stats atm but Imran had some 3800 runs in 126 innings and Kapil scored 3300 or 3500 runs in same number of innings. Test cricket is 5 days game. Team would benefit more from a lower order batsman scoring 35 from 70 balls than 30 in 40 balls. 

May I request you to go do a fact check about - Imran's stats till 1979-80, and after ( Just around the time Imran admitted he was involved in tampering). Also, may I request you to go and check Imran's bowling stats in Pakistan, and away from Pakistan ( Away from Pakistan, where Imran did not have the luxury of Pakistani umpires). Kindly do a fact check, and then lets talk again!

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17 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Other excelled with better bowling of Imran. Kapil wasn't that good to help other bowlers?

Imran lead Kapil by 28.87-22.81 = 6.06. The other 3 together in Imran's  group lead  the counter 3 from Kapil's group by 5.07*3 = 15.21.  Naturally my common sense  tells me to believe that Imran benefitted a lot more  'from the other 3 combined' than vice versa.

 

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33 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Imran lead Kapil by 28.87-22.81 = 6.06. The other 3 together in Imran's  group lead  the counter 3 from Kapil's group by 5.07*3 = 15.21.  Naturally my common sense  tells me to believe that Imran benefitted a lot more  'from the other 3 combined' than vice versa.

 

Ignoring that it's easier to improve average from 38 to 33 than from 29 to 22?

 

There are 3-4 pacers in every team with avg between 30-38 and there is only 1 or pacers who have been averaging 22 in the world atm. Of course simple subtraction doesn't tell you that. Inclusion of a decent captain or mentor/support can make Ishant, Umesh and Shami average 30-33, but no matter what an average bowler won't suddenly make bowlers Dale Steyn. 

 

Broad hasn't become 22 averaging bowler in presence of Anderson and Swann and Dale Steyn won't become 29 averaging bowler without Morkel and Philander.

 

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10 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Ignoring that it's easier to improve average from 38 to 33 than from 29 to 22?

 

There are 3-4 pacers in every team with avg between 30-38 and there is only 1 or pacers who have been averaging 22 in the world atm. Of course simple subtraction doesn't tell you that. Inclusion of a decent captain or mentor/support can make Ishant, Umesh and Shami average 30-33, but no matter what an average bowler won't suddenly make bowlers Dale Steyn. 

 

Broad hasn't become 22 averaging bowler in presence of Anderson and Swann and Dale Steyn won't become 29 averaging bowler without Morkel and Philander.

 

firstly  it is not 29 & 22 , it is 28.87 & 22.81

 

what ever it is , I am not telling that Kapil in the company of 3  33.26 bowlers thru out his career suddenly would have become a Dale Steyn  instead of him being in the company of 3 38.33 bowlers.I am only telling that his avg: would have positively benefitted quite a bit ,say at least by 0.8 , the other 1.2 because of getting  intense work  density reduced ,thus 28.86-0.8-1.2 =26.86. This because it is not one support bowler with 33.26 avg: but 3 of them.Hence the combined avg: difference of 15.21 is quite large   & thus can make some postive difference to Kapil's bowl avg:.

 

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On 8/11/2017 at 8:58 AM, Trichromatic said:

Ignoring that it's easier to improve average from 38 to 33 than from 29 to 22?

 

There are 3-4 pacers in every team with avg between 30-38 and there is only 1 or pacers who have been averaging 22 in the world atm. Of course simple subtraction doesn't tell you that. Inclusion of a decent captain or mentor/support can make Ishant, Umesh and Shami average 30-33, but no matter what an average bowler won't suddenly make bowlers Dale Steyn. 

 

Broad hasn't become 22 averaging bowler in presence of Anderson and Swann and Dale Steyn won't become 29 averaging bowler without Morkel and Philander.

 

I was hoping for an answer from you.

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On 8/11/2017 at 8:58 AM, Trichromatic said:

 Inclusion of a decent captain or mentor/support can make Ishant, Umesh and Shami average 30-33, but no matter what an average bowler won't suddenly make bowlers Dale Steyn. 

 

 

Shami is averaging 32 ... we will probably see this come down quite a bit if he stays fit during the next leg of away tours.

 

He has mostly played on flat tracks after his maturing as a test bowler in mid-2016.

 

The 2 seaming tracks he got, in Antigua and Kolkata, he picked up 4  and 6 wickets respectively.

Edited by express bowling

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On 11/08/2017 at 3:17 AM, Rightarmfast said:

May I request you to go do a fact check about - Imran's stats till 1979-80, and after ( Just around the time Imran admitted he was involved in tampering). Also, may I request you to go and check Imran's bowling stats in Pakistan, and away from Pakistan ( Away from Pakistan, where Imran did not have the luxury of Pakistani umpires). Kindly do a fact check, and then lets talk again!

Were the umpires unbiased in other parts of the world? What about West Indian umpires who just refuse to go against home team? Does that affect legacy of great West Indian pacers? This problem was all over the world and everyone faced it.

 

It's not like that Imran was average bowler outside Pakistan. 

 

He averges 25.76 outside Pakistan which is still better than many great pacers can manage away from home. Kapil averages 32.8 away from home. 

 

It's not similar to Miandad who averaged close 70 at home majority of career and then in 30 outside Asia. If it something similar then it's make sense to point out dip in away records. Otherwise avg of 25 is considered great in any decade.

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14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Shami is averaging 32 ... we will probably see this come down quite a bit if he stays fit during the next leg of away tours.

 

He has mostly played on flat tracks after his maturing as a test bowler in mid-2016.

 

The 2 seaming tracks he got, in Antigua and Kolkata, he picked up 4  and 6 wickets respectively.

Not saying that he does not has potential. He is already better than Zaheer at same point of career and has potential to become our of the best. He is one pacer who looks like can end with 27-28 avg if he maintains his fitness. By the time Zak learned all his skills, he had lost pace and already going downhill in terms of fitness. Shami has all those skills with pace and at peak of his career.

 

Point is Shami has talent to do so and he can do it without much difference in what others do. While Ishant won't be able to do it even if he plays with good bowlers. Same goes for Umesh, he isn't smart or consistent enough to average below 27-29 in career. At best with support he will be 30-32 avg bowler.

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