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putrevus

Kohli far too inconsistent in tests?

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Kohli needs lot of work to be considered as an elite batsman in tests.He has been very inconsistent and downright poor batsman for major chunks of his 60 tests.

 

If India has any hope of doing well overseas he needs to become Odi version of himself. The batsman of his caliber cannot just score one gift hundred against bowling attack like this.

 

The solidity of Kohli's batting which we get in Odis needs to appear in tests.

 

 

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His weakness outside offstump is way too apparent and recurring,he keeps falling into the same trap over and over again.

Its not like he hasn't gotten over it when he has put his mind to it,like in the last england series but it seems like he sometimes just gets sucked into it again.

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3 minutes ago, RAZPOR said:

His weakness outside offstump is way too apparent and recurring,he keeps falling into the same trap over and over again.

Its not like he hasn't gotten over it when he has put his mind to it,like in the last england series but it seems like he sometimes just gets sucked into it again.

He plays like he does in ODIs where he has to get bat on each and every ball. This works well other formats where slips are not there and ball rarely moves, but becomes risky shot in tests. Moreover, it's not that he tries to play boundary shots on these balls, rather he just tried to block deliveries outside off which should be left away. Will take lot of practice to leave his habbit.

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26 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

He's had 3 elite series, 2 shocking series and been meh otherwise.

 

He has averaged 50+ in 11 out of the 20 test series he has played so far.... which include 5 series of 65+ averages which include  3 series of 80+.   

 

I don't think it is possible to average 49.5 by having so many " meh "  series      : )

Edited by express bowling

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2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

He has averaged 50+ in 11 out of the 20 test series he has played so far.... which include 5 series of 65+ averages which include  3 series of 80+.   

 

I don't think it is possible to average 49.5 by having so many " meh "  series      : )

Averages aren't everything. It's more important to see how he scored the runs in a series. The current series is the definition of a meh series even though he averages 53+ thanks to a soft 100.

Edited by Jimmy Cliff

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Kohli is doing perfectly ok for a batsman playing all 3 formats.He is easily the best one day & t20 batsman of this era.Might be, the traits of that aggressive batting that makes him such a great limited overs player is having its negative  influence on Kohli the test batsman.Yes... he can polish his test technique  a bit more w.r.t areas where he is not that strong.But still it is too much a task to expect a 55+ bat avg: in tests from him(50+ is practically possible for him). Other than that he is ok  .

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Averages aren't everything. It's more important to see how scored the runs in a series. The current series is the definition of a meh series even though he averages 53+ thanks to a soft 100.

Very very valid point made by you. People ignore the context of some runs and look at the average and just the overall performance. His 100+ is an easy pickings 100 runs he got in an innings where there is hardly any pressure of the situation and the opposition were simply bowling saying..... "Please declare as soon as you can and let this torture be over for us">....  They are not playing like picking his wicket any time....  Other than that innings all his innings in this series were "Meh...."

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I'm astonished how he goes for hard drives outside off stump. He should by now have known that bowlers are going to target him in that area. We have a 'batting coach' in Bangar. Not sure if either Kohli or Bangar have figured this obvious observation. Or may Shastri kisses Kohli right before the latter goes to bat and screams 'Smash them!'

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2 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Averages aren't everything. It's more important to see how he scored the runs in a series. The current series is the definition of a meh series even though he averages 53+ thanks to a soft 100.

 

In the current series, all runs by every Indian batsmen have been soft runs , thanks to poor bowling and easy pitches.

 

There have been many test series where he has scored runs during relevant times.

 

And, we will find every good batter scoring soft runs on many occasions.

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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1 hour ago, sarcastic said:

Very very valid point made by you. People ignore the context of some runs and look at the average and just the overall performance. His 100+ is an easy pickings 100 runs he got in an innings where there is hardly any pressure of the situation and the opposition were simply bowling saying..... "Please declare as soon as you can and let this torture be over for us">....  They are not playing like picking his wicket any time....  Other than that innings all his innings in this series were "Meh...."

 

Even if he had scored a century in the first innings of the first test or second test, those would have been easy hundreds, as both the bowling and the pitch conditions when we batted, have been rather friendly in this series so far. ( And finding such easy bowler / pitch combo is rather rare in the tests that we play )

 

A good overall average of around 50  does carry some meaning when a player has played 59 tests like Kohli has.  It is not possible to get that many irrelevant innings and that many easy oppositions / conditions to maintain that average.

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40 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

In the current series, all runs by every Indian batsmen have been soft runs , thanks to poor bowling and easy pitches.

Yes but Dhawan and Pujara have got runs in the 1st innings setting up the game for the team whereas Kohli coasted to a 100 when the team already had a cushion of 300 odd. Pretty big difference.

 

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There have been many test series where he has scored runs during relevant times.

And there have also been quite a few series where he has failed for the most part but cashed in with a big score in a dead rubber/relatively inconsequential innings to end up with a respectable average.

 

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And, we will find every good batter scoring soft runs on many occasions.

Sure. Some batters seem to do it slightly more often though. Like Kohli! :wp6:. Which isn't to suggest that he isn't a good/very good Test batsman though. However,  I don't think his run scoring in Tests has had the kind of impact one would expect from someone who has an average of around 50.

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He tries to counter that channel by moving across towards outside the off stump. That strategy more often than not will fail if the ball goes away. When he started his career he tried to leave the balls that should not have been left. He tried to emulate Vijay but he couldn't . Also his first instinct is to guide the ball to slip area ( which works in ODIs after 10 overs) 

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8 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Yes but Dhawan and Pujara have got runs in the 1st innings setting up the game for the team whereas Kohli coasted to a 100 when the team already had a cushion of 300 odd. Pretty big difference.

If he had scored heavily in this series, he would have been accused of scoring in a low importance series against a weak team on easy pitches, to boost his average. Other batsmen seem to have much easier parameters to be judged.

 

The same tough yardstick was also applied to Tendulkar and Dravid.

 

8 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

 

And there have also been quite a few series where he has failed for the most part but cashed in with a big score in a dead rubber/relatively inconsequential innings to end up with a respectable average.

Happens to every batsman sometimes.

8 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

 

Sure. Some batters seem to do it slightly more often though. Like Kohli! :wp6:. Which isn't to suggest that he isn't a good/very good Test batsman though. However,  I don't think his run scoring in Tests has had the kind of impact one would expect from someone who has an average of around 50.

 

In my opinion, Kohli's metamorphosis as a test batsman came on the SA tour 2013.   From then on, he has been impactful in SA'13, NZ'14, Aus '14, WI '16, Eng '16, Bng '17..... ok in SL '15, NZ '16 .... meh in SA'15 in India when he scored in a meaningless match as did Rahane .... bad in Eng '14, Aus'17 in India.

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13 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

He has averaged 50+ in 11 out of the 20 test series he has played so far.... which include 5 series of 65+ averages which include  3 series of 80+.   

 

I don't think it is possible to average 49.5 by having so many " meh "  series      : )

ofcourse you can avg 49.5 and still have meh series, Indian fans have spoken Kohli is poor test batsman. So what he is hailed as one of the best across all formats ppl like manju want him to be like imran and if given a choice fans on this forum would replace him with tamim iqbal. 

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

If he had scored heavily in this series, he would have been accused of scoring in a low importance series against a weak team on easy pitches, to boost his average. Other batsmen seem to have much easier parameters to be judged.

 

The same tough yardstick was also applied to Tendulkar and Dravid.

So what? Scoring heavily would still be preferable to flopping in all 1st innings and downhill skiing to a soft 100 with a lead of 300. As for tough yardsticks, that comes with the territory if you're supposed to be a part of the "big 4". Steve Smith would come under the same scrutiny if he starts failing in the innings that count and cashes in relatively easier innings.

 

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Happens to every batsman sometimes.

Yeah but happens with some batsmen more often. Which is the point.

 

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In my opinion, Kohli's metamorphosis as a test batsman came on the SA tour 2013.   From then on, he has been impactful in SA'13, NZ'14, Aus '14, WI '16, Eng '16, Bng '17..... ok in SL '15, NZ '16 .... meh in SA'15 in India when he scored in a meaningless match as did Rahane .... bad in Eng '14, Aus'17 in India.

Agree. Since then he's had two elite series - AUS 2014 and ENG 2016 and was okay in WI 2016. Apart from these series, his impact has been minimal or at best underwhelming.

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

So what? Scoring heavily would still be preferable to flopping in all 1st innings and downhill skiing to a soft 100 with a lead of 300. As for tough yardsticks, that comes with the territory if you're supposed to be a part of the "big 4". Steve Smith would come under the same scrutiny if he starts failing in the innings that count and cashes in relatively easier innings.

Players should not be judged based on a single series.

 

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Yeah but happens with some batsmen more often. Which is the point.

Don't see that happening to Kohli.

 

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Agree. Since then he's had two elite series - AUS 2014 and ENG 2016 and was okay in WI 2016. Apart from these series, his impact has been minimal or at best underwhelming.

 

Don't agree.

 

He had a lot of impact in SA '13 and  Bng '17 ..... and significant impact in NZ '14 and WI '16.  

 

Good series in SL '15 and NZ '16.  His crucial knock of 45 in a low scoring match at the Eden Gardens on an up and down seaming track at a crucial point in the game played a big part in the team win. 

Edited by express bowling

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37 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Players should not be judged based on a single series.

No ****.

 

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Don't see that happening to Kohli.

Too bad but it already has happened with Kohli. Look up the number of times he has cashed in a dead rubber. You'd be surprised.


 

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Don't agree.

 

He had a lot of impact in SA '16 and  Bng '17 ..... and significant impact in NZ '14 and WI '16.  

 

Good series in SL '15 and NZ '16.  His crucial knock of 45 in a low scoring match at the Eden Gardens on an up and down seaming track at a crucial point in the game played a big part in the team win. 

 

There was no such series played against SA in 2016. Not bothered about the likes of Zim/Bang. His 45 was good but India already had a decent lead and were in a pretty comfortable position in a match context. In fact, that series against NZ is another example where he failed in 3 out of the 4 innings when the series was live but got a double 100 in a dead rubber. Meh. Nothing special about the SL 2015 series either. His only significant impact in NZ 2014 was the McCullum drop that cost us the series.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

 

Too bad but it already has happened with Kohli. Look up the number of times he has cashed in a dead rubber. You'd be surprised.

 

Starting from the SA '13 tour, Kohli has scored 13 centuries and only 2 have been in dead rubber matches.

 

He also has a 96 in the first test in SA'13.

 

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There was no such series played against SA in 2016.

 

I was referring to the SA ' 13 series and it was a typo.

 

He scored 119, 96 and   46, 11 in 2 tests against Steyn, Philander, Morkel in SA.

 

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Not bothered about the likes of Zim/Bang.

We have not played any test against Zim.

 

Just 1 test against Bangladesh and they are playing better test cricket than the current SL side.

 

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His 45 was good but India already had a decent lead and were in a pretty comfortable position in a match context. In fact, that series against NZ is another example where he failed in 3 out of the 4 innings when the series was live but got a double 100 in a dead rubber.

One of his only 2 centuries in the last 4 years scored in a dead rubber... 11 others in live rubber.

 

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Meh. Nothing special about the SL 2015 series either.

Scored a 103 and 78 in live rubber matches.  It was a good series.  All series can't be special unless  we are discussing Bradman.

 

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His only significant impact in NZ 2014 was the McCullum drop that cost us the series.

 

 

Scored 105, 67 and 38 in a 2 test series outside the sub-continent in a country where the ball seams around.  Your standards seem to rise a bit too high when you are discussing Kohli.

Edited by express bowling

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Kohli has scored very important runs, that is not the question. No one is saying he is not good batsman. It is just he is too inconsistent for a top notch batsman and he goes missing for series. As a test captain he has done wonders.His batting is good but this is Kohli we are talking about so naturally expectations are higher.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Kohli has scored very important runs, that is not the question. No one is saying he is not good batsman. It is just he is too inconsistent for a top notch batsman and he goes missing for series. As a test captain he has done wonders.His batting is good but this is Kohli we are talking about so naturally expectations are higher.

 

 

Kohli sometimes seems to pick up bad habits after  long T20 cum ODI stints.... starts poking outside the off-stump and takes some time to get rid of it.

 

One of the problems in this T20 era ..... what is the solution  ?

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1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

Kohli sometimes seems to pick up bad habits after  long T20 cum ODI stints.... starts poking outside the off-stump and takes some time to get rid of it.

 

One of the problems in this T20 era ..... what is the solution  ?

As Jimmy Anderson suggested last year, he is still yet to prove he is good enough outside the offstump. He has no shuffle back and across and he gets his bats straight down. When both these things happen you are bound to fail when ball moves even little bit either in air or off the pitch.

 

Hope he will work on it some more. I don't think he was reading their chinaman yesterday so was stuck on the crease and when that happens you try to reach the ball and when it spins you are in trouble.

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3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

As Jimmy Anderson suggested last year, he is still yet to prove he is good enough outside the offstump. He has no shuffle back and across and he gets his bats straight down. When both these things happen you are bound to fail when ball moves even little bit either in air or off the pitch.

He has a very pronounced back-and-across movement which makes it easy to counter both off-stump deliveries as well as bounce.  His issue is more regarding tendency nowadays than a technical issue.

 

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Hope he will work on it some more. I don't think he was reading their chinaman yesterday so was stuck on the crease and when that happens you try to reach the ball and when it spins you are in trouble.

 

One of the basics of test cricket is not reaching out to deliveries while playing them.  Let the ball come to you to play or else leave it.

 

Kohli reached out to play yesterday and that is the bad habit which keeps coming back after too many T20s and ODIs.

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Starting from the SA '13 tour, Kohli has scored 13 centuries and only 2 have been in dead rubber matches.

 

He also has a 96 in the first test in SA'13.

Starting from Jun 2011, he averages 45+ against non Zim/Bang sides in live Tests but 64+ in dead rubbers. A significant difference.

 

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

We have not played any test against Zim.

 

Just 1 test against Bangladesh and they are playing better test cricket than the current SL side.

The current SL side have recently whitewashed Australia. Perhaps when Bangladesh win a series against Test standard side, we can stop counting them as a minnow.

 

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

One of his only 2 centuries in the last 4 years scored in a dead rubber... 11 others in live rubber.

This isn't just about his 100s. Look up the difference in the averages in live Tests and dead rubbers.

 

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Scored a 103 and 78 in live rubber matches.  It was a good series.  All series can't be special unless  we are discussing Bradman.

Failed in both innings of the series decider. Failed while chasing 170 odd in the 4th innings in the 1st Test. Averaged less than 40 overall.  Was out-performed by Rohit in the 2 games we won. If that counts as a good series, then the bar for good batsmanship has been lowered big-time.

 

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Scored 105, 67 and 38 in a 2 test series outside the sub-continent in a country where the ball seams around.  Your standards seem to rise a bit too high when you are discussing Kohli.

The problem is that he scored the 100 when the series was lost already and we had to bat out just 50 odd overs in the 4th innings. If he had got the hundred in the 1st Test or in the 1st innings at Wellington, I would've rated that series a lot higher. The standards are always high for the top rated players. Kohli is doing fine compared to a average Test batsman but has to do a much better job of making his runs count (the way he did vs ENG at home last year) if he has go down as an elite Test batsman.

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8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

He has a very pronounced back-and-across movement which makes it easy to counter both off-stump deliveries as well as bounce.  His issue is more regarding tendency nowadays than a technical issue.

 

 

One of the basics of test cricket is not reaching out to deliveries while playing them.  Let the ball come to you to play or else leave it.

 

Kohli reached out to play yesterday and that is the bad habit which keeps coming back after too many T20s and ODIs.

I have not seen any pronounced back and across movement from him. There is no  batsmen who has pronounced back and across movement in this side . Look at ABDV or even FAF their trigger is back and across then they play their shots.

 

If go back and watch Sunny you will see how pronounced his back and across movement was and how he coped with moving ball.

Edited by putrevus

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10 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I have not seen any pronounced back and across movement from him. There is no  batsmen who has pronounced back and across movement in this side . Look at ABDV or even FAF their trigger is back and across then they play their shots.

 

If go back and watch Sunny you will see how pronounced his back and across movement was and how he coped with moving ball.

 

That is incorrect.

 

Kohli, Rahane and Rahul have back and across trigger movements against pacers..... Dhawan has developed it recently in the last 3 months or so.... Pandya uses it often too against pacers.

 

Gavaskar had more of a side and across trigger movement with his back-foot.

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2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

That is incorrect.

 

Kohli, Rahane and Rahul have back and across trigger movements against pacers..... Dhawan has developed it recently in the last 3 months or so.... Pandya uses it often too against pacers.

 

Gavaskar had more of a side and across trigger movement with his back-foot.

If you find any video of anyof them moving back and across plz post the link. I would like to see.

 

Sunny played side on but it was  back and across. There is no side and across movement in any technique. 

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12 minutes ago, putrevus said:

If you find any video of anyof them moving back and across plz post the link. I would like to see.

I will when I find the time and if there are proper videos.

 

12 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Sunny played side on but it was  back and across. There is no side and across movement in any technique. 

 

Side and across means not going deep into the crease, it involves a minor backward movement and a more pronounced sideward movement to get a better idea of the off-stump.  Absolutely literally, it is still a variation of the back-and-across movement.

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4 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Starting from Jun 2011, he averages 45+ against non Zim/Bang sides in live Tests but 64+ in dead rubbers. A significant difference.

 

Dead rubbers is not a correct criterion .... as teams still fight hard and play for pride when they have lost a series and want to close the gap.  Only already won series, like the current one, carry less meaning.

 

Nevertheless, Kohli averages 50.2 in live rubbers from SA ' 13.  ( the time from when he became a good test player )

 

He averages 51.8 leaving out already won series.

 

Both are very good averages in tests.

 

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The current SL side have recently whitewashed Australia. Perhaps when Bangladesh win a series against Test standard side, we can stop counting them as a minnow.

So, you think that this SL side is a good one  and a worthy opponent  ?

 

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This isn't just about his 100s. Look up the difference in the averages in live Tests and dead rubbers.

100s usually mean impactful big innings.... which is why I also included his 96 in SA.

 

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 if he has go down as an elite Test batsman.

 

He is not an elite test batsman yet .... may not become one ever.  He is an elite ODI and T20I batsman.  This Indian team does not have any elite test batsmen like Tendulkar or Gavaskar.

 

He is a very good test batsman though but some are treating him like Dhawan, the test batsman.

Edited by express bowling

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