The importance of a fit Md. Shami when we tour SA, Eng, Aus, NZ

[express bowling]

In SA, England, Australia and NZ.... our pacers will have to shoulder the main responsibility. They did it in WI '16 but the opposition was weak.

 

In tests, wickets are picked by pacers with regularity when they bowl continuously in the right areas while hitting the deck hard to extract something out of the pitch.  Conventional swing is quite rare these days and is often available for only a few initial overs, if that.

 

Shami is our only test pacer who can bowl in the right areas while hitting the deck hard.  Uses the surprise bouncer intelligently too.

 

Umesh can hit the deck hard but is too inconsistent. We might get a magical Umesh one day and a rubbish Umesh the next.  Also, he is reluctant to use the surprise bouncers.

 

Bhuvi is the best when it comes to bowling in the right areas but does not hit the deck hard with regularity.

 

Ishant does hit the deck hard and gives an illusion of accuracy.... but bowls too many deliveries which can be left alone. Hence, his low wicket-count in tests.

 

Bumrah is another pacer, who can bowl consistently in the right areas while hitting the deck hard.... and need to be tried in tests before the SA test series in the SL tour of India.

 

Pandya is shaping up well in terms of both the above parameters but is still a rookie.

 

In a nutshell, if Shami is injured, we won't have a leader-of-the-pack-pacer outside Asia.

 

p.s - In outside-Asia test matches, pacers succeed at 130 k or 140 k or 150 k if they are willing to hit the deck hard while bowling in right areas.  ( Unlike Asia where high pace is essential  for reverse swing )  Floaty bowling or inaccurate bowling are the areas which need to be avoided.

Edited August 13, 2017 by express bowling

[chewy]

Siraj looks a good option

[kubrickian]

Ishant has improved in the last few years. He averaged 28 in 2016 and 31 in 2014,2015. That's much improved compared to early part of his career and it also includes some very good spells at Lord's, NZ, SA, Aus and Sri Lanka. If Umesh doesnt deliver, he will be a decent option in overseas conditions as he has experience bowling there and he is a tall, hit the deck bowler who are likely to do well there and can bowl at a good pace as well.

[putrevus]

One good bowler will take you no where, you need atleast three bowlers who are capable of running thru sides.If Shami is the only good bowler then captains will work him to death.

 

Yadav I thought he has improved but he has returned to his inconsitent ways albeit sample size is small.

Edited August 13, 2017 by putrevus

[ShebbySB]

Shami is the best one by far and we need him in test matches outside the SC.I'll play Ishant too.He has improved quite a bit. Bowls as quick as Umesh, hits the deck and is quite tall.He is more consistent than Umesh.Umesh is handy on low slow SC pitches with his slingy action and reverse swing.So for me 3 seamers in test matches outside asia are Shami,Ishant and Umesh/BK.

In England and NZ I'll go with BK or on green pitches where it moves a lot.In Australia and SA I'd play Umesh ahead of BK.Now we have Hardik as a fourth option who is quite sharp and can hit low 140s,moves the ball and bat at 7 or 8.Lone spinner will be Ashwin for his superior batting.

Vijay,Rahul,Pujara,Kohli(c),Rahane,Saha(Wk),Ashwin,Hardik,BK/Umesh,Shami,Ishant looks a decent XI though I'd pick Kuldeep ahead of Jadeja if we pick a 2nd spinner in the XI.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by ShebbySB

[ThePhenomenal1]

Kohli is too reluctant to try out new pacers and rotate umesh and shami. Someone like S Thakhur or M Siraj could have been brought in but its the same old 'ishant is backup' mentality. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

He is our spear heard, a certainty in every condition. Rest all other havent risen up another level . If shami is their as leader of the attack other above avg bowlers dnt have to take that role which to be honest they dnt deserve. 

 

Shami is a must n im literally hoping n praying one among nathu n avesh breaks through as i see them as match winners in test cricket in every condition. 

In some way or other someone like Aniket also has to be roped in the side as we need that variety of left arm fast bowler, we missed it on Ishant in Ind-Aus test series

[Pollack]

If it is similar type of replacement for Shami if unfit then Siraj looks a good option at the moment. Of course he won't have the experience of shami and won't be spearhead. The other option who may or may not shape up in future is N Saini.

[Pollack]

If India wants a hit the deck pqce bowler then A chaudhary should be prepared. Ishant is not the way forward.

 

Improved Ishant is a myth. Some things never change. 

[jf1gp_1]

Recently saw a 17 yr old bowler can't remember his name bowl around 145.

[Pollack]

20 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

He is our spear heard, a certainty in every condition. Rest all other havent risen up another level . If shami is their as leader of the attack other above avg bowlers dnt have to take that role which to be honest they dnt deserve. 

 

Shami is a must n im literally hoping n praying one among nathu n avesh breaks through as i see them as match winners in test cricket in every condition. 

In some way or other someone like Aniket also has to be roped in the side as we need that variety of left arm fast bowler, we missed it on Ishant in Ind-Aus test series

Where is Nathu Singh now? Why isn't he much into scheme of  selections? IMO he is no 1 among all the prospects in terms of talent ,maturity and accuracy.

[Ankit_sharma03]

6 minutes ago, Pollack said:

Where is Nathu Singh now? Why isn't he much into scheme of  selections? IMO he is no 1 among all the prospects in terms of talent ,maturity and accuracy.

He was called for NCA among 7-8 fast bowlers recently, dravid have always spoken about him highly

M assuming his fitness isnt upto the mark. 

He did perform very well in duleep last yr , so i doubt perfomance wud be the criteria 

[Ankit_sharma03]

12 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

Recently saw a 17 yr old bowler can't remember his name bowl around 145.

Where ????? who ???

[jf1gp_1]

24 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Where ????? who ???

U19 ind vs eng. I saw couple of overs most deliveries were 138 to 145. Pretty quick for that age. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by jf1gp_1

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 hour ago, jf1gp_1 said:

U19 ind vs eng. I saw couple of overs most deliveries were 138 to 145. Pretty quick for that age. 

Kamlesh or shivam whom are u talking about

[Tibarn]

Shami also has lots to prove outside of Asia... I think we should temper our expectations. As long as he improves on his previous numbers, it should be somewhat of a win.

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
overall	2013-2017	25	48	767.3	123	2630	83	5/47	9/118	31.68	3.42	55.4	2	0	Profile

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
v Australia	2014-2015	3	6	126.3	15	537	15	5/112	6/145	35.80	4.24	50.6	1	0
v England	2014-2016	6	11	199.0	37	618	15	3/63	5/100	41.20	3.10	79.6	0	0
v New Zealand	2014-2016	5	10	175.0	27	594	18	4/70	6/116	33.00	3.39	58.3	0	0
v South Africa	2013-2013	2	4	75.0	11	263	6	3/107	5/155	43.83	3.50	75.0	0	0
v Sri Lanka	2017-2017	3	6	49.5	9	152	7	2/13	3/88	21.71	3.05	42.7	0	0
v West Indies	2013-2016	6	11	142.1	24	466	22	5/47	9/118	21.18	3.27	38.7	1	0
in Australia	2014-2015	3	6	126.3	15	537	15	5/112	6/145	35.80	4.24	50.6	1	0
in England	2014-2014	3	5	96.0	15	366	5	2/128	2/91	73.20	3.81	115.2	0	0
in India	2013-2016	8	16	227.2	36	677	29	5/47	9/118	23.34	2.97	47.0	1	0
in New Zealand	2014-2014	2	4	99.5	17	351	10	4/70	6/219	35.10	3.51	59.9	0	0
in South Africa	2013-2013	2	4	75.0	11	263	6	3/107	5/155	43.83	3.50	75.0	0	0
in Sri Lanka	2017-2017	3	6	49.5	9	152	7	2/13	3/88	21.71	3.05	42.7	0	0
in West Indies	2016-2016	4	7	93.0	20	284	11	4/66	4/92	25.81	3.05	50.7	0	0

 

Over the same period, Ishant performed like this: 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
unfiltered	2007-2017	77	136	2462.3	474	8051	218	7/74	10/108	36.93	3.26	67.7	7	1	Profile
filtered	2013-2017	30	55	918.0	187	2845	81	7/74	9/162	35.12	3.09	68.0	4	0

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
v Australia	2013-2017	10	20	300.0	58	908	19	3/38	6/155	47.78	3.02	94.7	0	0
v Bangladesh	2015-2017	2	3	40.0	8	133	3	2/40	3/109	44.33	3.32	80.0	0	0
v England	2014-2016	4	6	146.0	30	440	17	7/74	7/135	25.88	3.01	51.5	1	0
v New Zealand	2014-2014	2	4	106.0	14	377	15	6/51	9/162	25.13	3.55	42.4	2	0
v South Africa	2013-2015	5	9	152.0	44	428	6	4/79	5/170	71.33	2.81	152.0	0	0
v Sri Lanka	2015-2015	3	6	90.0	15	302	13	5/54	8/86	23.23	3.35	41.5	1	0
v West Indies	2016-2016	4	7	84.0	18	257	8	2/30	3/70	32.12	3.05	63.0	0	0
in Australia	2014-2014	3	6	125.0	24	434	9	3/38	6/155	48.22	3.47	83.3	0	0
in Bangladesh	2015-2015	1	1	7.0	0	24	0	-	-	-	3.42	-	0	0
in England	2014-2014	3	4	115.0	22	381	14	7/74	7/135	27.21	3.31	49.2	1	0
in India	2013-2017	12	23	301.0	77	757	17	3/72	3/48	44.52	2.51	106.2	0	0
in New Zealand	2014-2014	2	4	106.0	14	377	15	6/51	9/162	25.13	3.55	42.4	2	0
in South Africa	2013-2013	2	4	90.0	17	313	5	4/79	5/170	62.60	3.47	108.0	0	0
in Sri Lanka	2015-2015	3	6	90.0	15	302	13	5/54	8/86	23.23	3.35	41.5	1	0
in West Indies	2016-2016	4	7	84.0	18	257	8	2/30	3/70	32.12	3.05	63.0	0	0

 

Ishant was better in NZ and England. Shami was better in SA and Australia. 

 

[express bowling]

22 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

Shami also has lots to prove outside of Asia... I think we should temper our expectations. As long as he improves on his previous numbers, it should be somewhat of a win.

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
overall	2013-2017	25	48	767.3	123	2630	83	5/47	9/118	31.68	3.42	55.4	2	0	Profile

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
v Australia	2014-2015	3	6	126.3	15	537	15	5/112	6/145	35.80	4.24	50.6	1	0
v England	2014-2016	6	11	199.0	37	618	15	3/63	5/100	41.20	3.10	79.6	0	0
v New Zealand	2014-2016	5	10	175.0	27	594	18	4/70	6/116	33.00	3.39	58.3	0	0
v South Africa	2013-2013	2	4	75.0	11	263	6	3/107	5/155	43.83	3.50	75.0	0	0
v Sri Lanka	2017-2017	3	6	49.5	9	152	7	2/13	3/88	21.71	3.05	42.7	0	0
v West Indies	2013-2016	6	11	142.1	24	466	22	5/47	9/118	21.18	3.27	38.7	1	0
in Australia	2014-2015	3	6	126.3	15	537	15	5/112	6/145	35.80	4.24	50.6	1	0
in England	2014-2014	3	5	96.0	15	366	5	2/128	2/91	73.20	3.81	115.2	0	0
in India	2013-2016	8	16	227.2	36	677	29	5/47	9/118	23.34	2.97	47.0	1	0
in New Zealand	2014-2014	2	4	99.5	17	351	10	4/70	6/219	35.10	3.51	59.9	0	0
in South Africa	2013-2013	2	4	75.0	11	263	6	3/107	5/155	43.83	3.50	75.0	0	0
in Sri Lanka	2017-2017	3	6	49.5	9	152	7	2/13	3/88	21.71	3.05	42.7	0	0
in West Indies	2016-2016	4	7	93.0	20	284	11	4/66	4/92	25.81	3.05	50.7	0	0

 

Over the same period, Ishant performed like this: 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
unfiltered	2007-2017	77	136	2462.3	474	8051	218	7/74	10/108	36.93	3.26	67.7	7	1	Profile
filtered	2013-2017	30	55	918.0	187	2845	81	7/74	9/162	35.12	3.09	68.0	4	0

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
v Australia	2013-2017	10	20	300.0	58	908	19	3/38	6/155	47.78	3.02	94.7	0	0
v Bangladesh	2015-2017	2	3	40.0	8	133	3	2/40	3/109	44.33	3.32	80.0	0	0
v England	2014-2016	4	6	146.0	30	440	17	7/74	7/135	25.88	3.01	51.5	1	0
v New Zealand	2014-2014	2	4	106.0	14	377	15	6/51	9/162	25.13	3.55	42.4	2	0
v South Africa	2013-2015	5	9	152.0	44	428	6	4/79	5/170	71.33	2.81	152.0	0	0
v Sri Lanka	2015-2015	3	6	90.0	15	302	13	5/54	8/86	23.23	3.35	41.5	1	0
v West Indies	2016-2016	4	7	84.0	18	257	8	2/30	3/70	32.12	3.05	63.0	0	0
in Australia	2014-2014	3	6	125.0	24	434	9	3/38	6/155	48.22	3.47	83.3	0	0
in Bangladesh	2015-2015	1	1	7.0	0	24	0	-	-	-	3.42	-	0	0
in England	2014-2014	3	4	115.0	22	381	14	7/74	7/135	27.21	3.31	49.2	1	0
in India	2013-2017	12	23	301.0	77	757	17	3/72	3/48	44.52	2.51	106.2	0	0
in New Zealand	2014-2014	2	4	106.0	14	377	15	6/51	9/162	25.13	3.55	42.4	2	0
in South Africa	2013-2013	2	4	90.0	17	313	5	4/79	5/170	62.60	3.47	108.0	0	0
in Sri Lanka	2015-2015	3	6	90.0	15	302	13	5/54	8/86	23.23	3.35	41.5	1	0
in West Indies	2016-2016	4	7	84.0	18	257	8	2/30	3/70	32.12	3.05	63.0	0	0

 

Ishant was better in NZ and England. Shami was better in SA and Australia. 

 

 

 

Shami is a much more accurate test bowler starting from July 2016.  He is setting up batsmen better too.

 

Past stats  do not always give you the correct picture when a player is still developing and not a finished product.  Shami was in the first 18 months of his career during those series.

 

Ishant had played 6 years of test cricket during those tours and were touring some of those countries the 2nd time.

Edited August 13, 2017 by express bowling

[Tibarn]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Shami is a much more accurate test bowler starting from July 2016.  He is setting up batsmen better too.

How much of that is due to playing against Windies, SL, plus playing at home( where he always had a good record):

2016 and 2017 were all either home matches or matches in SL and Windies?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/481896.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings;year=2016

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/481896.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings;year=2017 

 

SL conditions are essentially the same as Indian conditions.  

 

Our tour of Windies was also in conditions similar to the subcontinent: there was lower bounce, we regularly got reverse swing there, and we played two spinners in basically every match there. 

 

None of those conditions are predictive when we go to Eng/NZ/SA/Aus where we will have to rely on conventional swing and bounce. We will be fortunate to have 1 performing spinner in those 4 countries, let alone 2 spinners who can carry the bulk of the workload like in subcontinental conditions. We also won't get reverse swing as easily overseas.  

20 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Past stats  do not always give you the correct picture when a player is still developing and not a finished product.  Shami was in the first 18 months of his career during those series.

 

The same logic should be applied to other players as well then, say Pujara, Bhuvi or Rohit Sharma, no?  They all have good records in familiar conditions, but they are asked to prove that they can replicate it in alien/unfavorable conditions. Shami should be held to the same standards no?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

How much of that is due to playing against Windies, SL, plus playing at home( where he always had a good record):

2016 and 2017 were all either home matches or matches in SL and Windies?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/481896.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings;year=2016

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/481896.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings;year=2017 

 

SL conditions are essentially the same as Indian conditions.  

 

Our tour of Windies was also in conditions similar to the subcontinent: there was lower bounce, we regularly got reverse swing there, and we played two spinners in basically every match there. 

 

None of those conditions are predictive when we go to Eng/NZ/SA/Aus where we will have to rely on conventional swing and bounce. We will be fortunate to have 1 performing spinner in those 4 countries, let alone 2 spinners who can carry the bulk of the workload like in subcontinental conditions. We also won't get reverse swing as easily overseas.  

 

Bowling in good areas is the key where-ever you are bowling.   The line and length Shami is bowling in the last 14 months in tests, and the way he is hitting the deck hard while doing so, would be ideal for SA, England etc.  Before that, he used to spray the ball a lot more.

 

Bowling is not like batting where a lot depends on how the bowlers are bowling at you.   In bowling, the bowler is the initiator and has full control over where he wants to bowl. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

 

The same logic should be applied to other players as well then, say Pujara, Bhuvi or Rohit Sharma, no?  They all have good records in familiar conditions, but they are asked to prove that they can replicate it in alien/unfavorable conditions. Shami should be held to the same standards no?  

 

 

I am talking about how a player is playing now and whether that is suitable when we play in SA, England etc.

 

Bhuvi has a very good chance of doing well in SA, NZ and England when the ball is seaming or swinging .... not sure about Australia. or flat tracks as he does not always hit the deck hard.  Not basing anything on his past performances but how he is bowling now.

 

Pujara has a huge hunger for runs and would have the confidence of a superb home season behind him. I expect him to do much better this time. The issue with him is that he has a front-and-across trigger movement and shifts his weight on the front foot before the ball is delivered. Whether this technique causes him problems on bouncier tracks is something we have to see. I am not writing him off by any means based on the last round of tours.

 

Rohit Sharma has huge issues with his off-stump play and his concentration in test matches. If he does not rectify these, he won't succeed in tests, especially when the ball is seaming around.  Again, this assessment is based on his current ability and not his past failed tours.

[Tibarn]

23 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Bowling in good areas is the key where-ever you are bowling.   The line and length Shami is bowling in the last 14 months in tests, and the way he is hitting the deck hard while doing so, would be ideal for SA, England etc.  Before that, he used to spray the ball a lot more.

That may be true, and hopefully he does well, but I'm still not sure how much one can read into recent performances. There is also the question of different lengths in different countries/conditions. There hasn't been any evidence thus far that Shami can bowl a different length, one more suitable for NZ/Eng/SA/AUS. Some bowlers are never able to bowl a proper length in foreign conditions. Theoretically we could just be seeing Shami bowling his natural length and excelling.     

 

However, I'm also not the kind to give praise to a player until after they prove it: that goes for batsmen(Pujara) or bowlers(Shami). After they do it, then I will praise them.  

Quote

Bowling is not like batting where a lot depends on how the bowlers are bowling at you.   In bowling, the bowler is the initiator and has full control over where he wants to bowl. 

I disagree here: even though bowlers are initiators, there is a big difference in bowling against someone like Warner, Smith, Amla, Cook, especially in conditions they are used to, than bowling against inferior batsmen vs pace in conditions familiar to the bowler.  

 

Quality batsmen from countries like Aus, SA, etc are taught to not let bowlers bowl wherever they want. They also have a superior range of shots to handle pace bowling in comparison to weaker sides like Lanka and Windies. They are capable of making bowlers change their lengths. This is similar to how Indian batsmen historically are able to disrupt spinners by using our superior footwork against them. The bowlers may initiate, but quality batsmen are perfectly capable of imposing their will on bowlers. 

50 minutes ago, express bowling said:

I am talking about how a player is playing now and whether that is suitable when we play in SA, England etc.

 

Yes, but I don't agree that one can use a players performance in completely different conditions, where they have to bowl different lengths to those in the countries in question, and bowling against generally inferior batsmen to project performances in different conditions, where different lengths are required, and where bowling will take place versus superior batsmen in conditions where those said batsmen are more comfortable, especially in taking on the bowlers/making them change where they bowl. 

56 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Bhuvi, Pujara, Rohit Sharma 

I wasn't saying that these guys should play on our away leg, I was only saying that all the players and Shami should be judged by the same yardstick. None of the three I had mentioned have proven to be world beaters overseas during our last away leg. I can add Ashwin, Jadeja, Dhawan, and Yadav to the list as well( although in Yadav and Bhuvi's cases they both didn't play in all 4 countries). All of them rightfully will be questioned until they prove their abilities in those 4 countries. I'm only holding Shami to the same standard as those other players in that I am not giving the benefit of the doubt to any of these players based on performances in the last 2 years in conditions they were already comfortable in. I don't view these conditions as a suitable proxy from which one can predict performances in a completely different conditions.