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England All-rounders


Texan

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8. Moeen Ali

9. Chris Woakes

10. Stuart Broad

 

What a line-up to bat at 8-10. Even no.10 Broad has a Test best of 169. England truly have an awesome lower middle order who are all also very competent bowlers. It hides their deficiencies with their top and middle order, which is still very unstable. It is this line-up that makes England almost unbeatable at home.

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17 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Almost unbeatable at home? They have worst win loss ratio in last 3 years at home among top 7 teams.

 

Their weak batting line up makes them so vulnerable.

Didn't they beat SA twice in the last 2 years in England - something they had achieved only once before after SA's re-admission? Also won last two Ashes series at home.

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1 minute ago, Texan said:

Didn't they beat SA twice in the last 2 years in England - something they had achieved only once before after SA's re-admission? Also won last two Ashes series at home.

They won last series against SA in Eng and lost before that at home. Aus has lost to India, Pak, SL, too by bigger margins.

Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/LDescending Ave RPO Inns HS LS  
India 2015-2017 17 13 1 0 3 13.000 39.78 3.27 30 759 105 investigate this query
Australia 2014-2017 16 10 2 0 4 5.000 51.11 4.02 29 624 85 investigate this query
South Africa 2014-2017 12 7 2 0 3 3.500 40.37 3.28 19 627 83 investigate this query
New Zealand 2014-2017 13 8 3 0 2 2.666 37.70 3.60 24 539 171 investigate this query
Bangladesh 2014-2017 11 4 2 0 4 2.000 32.63 3.24 20 555 203 investigate this query
England 2015-2017 20 12 6 0 1 2.000 35.13 3.57 37 589 103 investigate this query
Sri Lanka 2015-2017 17 9 8 0 0 1.125 29.73 3.26 33 494 117 investigate this query
West Indies 2014-2017 14 4 7 0 3 0.571 27.69 2.86 27 484 108 investigate this query
Zimbabwe 2016-2016 4 0 4 0 0 0.000 25.21 2.85 8 373 132 investigate this query

 

Pakistan 2014-2016 11 7 2 0 2 3.500 46.72 3.32 22 579 123 investigate this query

 

They can hardly be considered as unbeatable at home when they have better record than only SL, WI and Zimbabwe and this record is after winning 4 tests recently. Before that they were ahead of WI and Zimbabwe only. 

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11 hours ago, gattaca said:

if they are  so good why would they get whitewashed in India. They dont have true all rounder except for stokes. 

Stokes is fast evolving into a batsman who can bowl a bit.  True allrounders should be good enough with the ball to be considered in the team's top 3 wicket-taking options in tests.  Stokes clearly isn't.  And its not because the top 3 are so great that they outshine him.  He's just at the 4th or 5th bowler level at the moment.  And has been for over a year now.   

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37 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Stokes is fast evolving into a batsman who can bowl a bit.  True allrounders should be good enough with the ball to be considered in the team's top 3 wicket-taking options in tests.  Stokes clearly isn't.  And its not because the top 3 are so great that they outshine him.  He's just at the 4th or 5th bowler level at the moment.  And has been for over a year now.   

Then by your definition, Kallis would not be an all-rounder as he used to be the 4th bowler for most of his career. England's top 3 bowlers on a green pitch would be Anderson, Broad and Woakes who are as good as any top 3 seamers in the world. So, how can you hold that against him? Also, I don't think you can classify Ben Stokes as someone who can 'bowl a bit'. If so, you will have to classify Umesh Yadav as the same. Both have played around 35 matches, taken 90-95 wickets at an average and strike-rate of around 35 and 60 respectively. 

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40 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Stokes is fast evolving into a batsman who can bowl a bit.  True allrounders should be good enough with the ball to be considered in the team's top 3 wicket-taking options in tests.  Stokes clearly isn't.  And its not because the top 3 are so great that they outshine him.  He's just at the 4th or 5th bowler level at the moment.  And has been for over a year now.   

Got curious about Stokes's test bowling numbers - turns out he averages about 45 per wicket or more in the last year or so (excluding Bangladesh).  Bowls about 10 overs or less per innings , even in home conditions.  Those numbers reflect a classic 5th bowler.  Bowls about 5 overs in ODIs at most as well.  

 

His batting is quality, no doubt.  And is a gun fielder as well.  Handy package to have in an XI.  But he aint no allrounder and far, far away from a "potential ATG" - as most seem to think of him.   

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Samcric said:

Then by your definition, Kallis would not be an all-rounder as he used to be the 4th bowler for most of his career. England's top 3 bowlers on a green pitch would be Anderson, Broad and Woakes who are as good as any top 3 seamers in the world. So, how can you hold that against him? Also, I don't think you can classify Ben Stokes as someone who can 'bowl a bit'. If so, you will have to classify Umesh Yadav as the same. Both have played around 35 matches, taken 90-95 wickets at an average and strike-rate of around 35 and 60 respectively. 

An allrounder should be more than a filler bowler - if you lower the bar further, then why not consider the likes of Tendulkar and Ganguly as allrounders as well? When Tendulkar was in the middle phase of his career, as Stokes is, I'm pretty sure he bowled around 10-12 overs per innings, and picked up wickets at a handy rate as well.  

 

My post above points out the statistical record over the last 12 months, that speaks much louder than reputation based on perception, about Stokes' test bowling credentials.  

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/311158.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=default;spanmax1=29+Aug+2017;spanmin1=29+Aug+2016;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

I'm not dismissing Stokes' value as a test cricketer, but legit top-class allrounders should be able to make the team on either discipline - Stokes would not make the England team as a pure bowler.   That's my point.  

Edited by sandeep
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9 minutes ago, sandeep said:

An allrounder should be more than a filler bowler - if you lower the bar further, then why not consider the likes of Tendulkar and Ganguly as allrounders as well? When Tendulkar was in the middle phase of his career, as Stokes is, I'm pretty sure he bowled around 10-12 overs per innings, and picked up wickets at a handy rate as well.  

 

My post above points out the statistical record over the last 12 months, that speaks much louder than reputation based on perception, about Stokes' test bowling credentials.  

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/311158.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=default;spanmax1=29+Aug+2017;spanmin1=29+Aug+2016;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

I'm not dismissing Stokes' value as a test cricketer, but legit top-class allrounders should be able to make the team on either discipline - Stokes would not make the England team as a pure bowler.   That's my point.  

Why only last 12 months? I provided you his career stats. No. of overs bowled does not define a good bowler. Average and strike-rate do. In fact, if Stokes does not bowl enough in a match, it points to the strength of other bowlers in English team not the other way around.

 

Now let's discuss the numbers. A good all-rounder is someone who can create a net positive difference between batting average and bowling average. A good batting all-rounder will average more than 40 with bat and less than 35 with the ball (like Kallis/Sobers/Shakib). A good bowling all-rounder will average less than 25 with ball and more than 30 with bat (Ashwin/Jadeja etc.) Ben Stokes is more of the first category and he should ideally be averaging more than 40 with the bat (whereas he averages 35 which is around the same as someone like Ashwin). Bowling average of around 35 after the first 35-odd matches is actually not so bad and his main area of improvement is in Batting.

 

So, while I agree with your conclusion that he is not that good an all-rounder, it is not because he bowls after 3 other people. It is because his batting and bowling average are the same - around 35. All good all-rounders have a difference of 5 or more. For Kallis, it was 20+, Ashwin +8, Jadeja +7, Shakib +9 etc.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Samcric said:

Why only last 12 months? I provided you his career stats. No. of overs bowled does not define a good bowler. Average and strike-rate do.

Last 12 months to show his current trend line.  Stokes had some great bowling performances earlier in his career, but his own team is using him only for a handful of overs here and there.  That's why his average is over 40 and SR over 72 even in home conditions over the last two years.  

 

I think we are both on the same page on Stokes all-round utility.  My point is that he's not the top notch sure-shot future ATG allrounder that many anoint him to be.  And not just England fans.  

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13 hours ago, Texan said:

8. Moeen Ali

9. Chris Woakes

10. Stuart Broad

 

What a line-up to bat at 8-10. Even no.10 Broad has a Test best of 169. England truly have an awesome lower middle order who are all also very competent bowlers. It hides their deficiencies with their top and middle order, which is still very unstable. It is this line-up that makes England almost unbeatable at home.

England have a top-order batting problem.  A potential solution would be for Root to go back to #3, bat Bairstow at #4, and bring in Jos Buttler to keep wickets.  Buttler showed that he has the grit for test cricket in the India series. Buttler and Hameed did really well in that series, and should be in the selection mix.   @Stumped @YCCC How is Jos Buttler doing in FC cricket these days?  I understand Hameed went through a bit of a slump, but has he turned it around yet?

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1 minute ago, Stumped said:

I don't think we're really looking at Buttler right now. Could possibly be overlooked for Foakes as the backup keeping option for the Ashes, particularly if Buttler goes for a BBL contract.

I think that's a shame.  I think Jos Buttler is the type of cricketer I would want in my team, regardless of format.  Unless he proves he can't cut it in tests.   

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1 minute ago, Stumped said:

As a batting option his Lancashire team mate Liam Livingstone may be someone to keep an eye on for the very near future. Averages 46.56 in division 1 county cricket and is currently 204*.

How many runs are the likes of Ballance, Ian Bell, Shivnarine Chanderpaul scoring in England FC cricket right now?   FC stats are one thing, character and temperament to make it at the highest level another.  

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1 hour ago, sandeep said:

I think that's a shame.  I think Jos Buttler is the type of cricketer I would want in my team, regardless of format.  Unless he proves he can't cut it in tests.   

Butler is like Yuvraj...doesn't have the technique or temparament for tests(atleast for now...maybe he will turn it around) but when on song destructive in the LOI formats.

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2 hours ago, sandeep said:

England have a top-order batting problem.  A potential solution would be for Root to go back to #3, bat Bairstow at #4, and bring in Jos Buttler to keep wickets.  Buttler showed that he has the grit for test cricket in the India series. Buttler and Hameed did really well in that series, and should be in the selection mix.   @Stumped @YCCC How is Jos Buttler doing in FC cricket these days?  I understand Hameed went through a bit of a slump, but has he turned it around yet?

Buttler is average at best in FC cricket. Non county cricket watchers keep suggesting he comes in, to which I can only respond by laughing in their face! Same with Hameed. Much as I want him to come back, he can't possibly be picked on current form.

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7 hours ago, sandeep said:

England have a top-order batting problem.  A potential solution would be for Root to go back to #3, bat Bairstow at #4, and bring in Jos Buttler to keep wickets.  Buttler showed that he has the grit for test cricket in the India series. Buttler and Hameed did really well in that series, and should be in the selection mix.   @Stumped @YCCC How is Jos Buttler doing in FC cricket these days?  I understand Hameed went through a bit of a slump, but has he turned it around yet?

They haven't yet found any able replacements for Strauss, KP and Trott.

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