Is Shakib world's first AR who can get into teams with either skills?

[Trichromatic]

Batting

Matches: 50

Inn: 94

Runs: 3568

Avg: 41

HS: 217

100s: 5

Current ICC Ranking: 16

 

Those numbers are comparable to any top 6 batsman of all teams. For ex - Ganguly had scored 3562 runs in his first 95 innings with avg of 42 and 8 100s. 

 

Bowling

Inn: 84

Wickets: 186

5-fer: 17

Current ICC ranking 17

 

Expected to break into top 15 of both batting and bowling after updated rankings. 

 

Very few bowlers in history of game had more 5-fers in those many innings. Number of wickets is not like other batting AR who pick 1.5-2 wickets per match. In his 84 innings, Harbhajan had 199 wickets with 16 5-fer.

 

 

 

[sarcastic]

28 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Batting

Matches: 50

Inn: 94

Runs: 3568

Avg: 41

HS: 217

100s: 5

Current ICC Ranking: 16

 

Those numbers are comparable to any top 6 batsman of all teams. For ex - Ganguly had scored 3562 runs in his first 95 innings with avg of 42 and 8 100s. 

 

Bowling

Inn: 84

Wickets: 186

5-fer: 17

Current ICC ranking 17

 

Expected to break into top 15 of both batting and bowling after updated rankings. 

 

Very few bowlers in history of game had more 5-fers in those many innings. Number of wickets is not like other batting AR who pick 1.5-2 wickets per match. In his 84 innings, Harbhajan had 199 wickets with 16 5-fer.

 

 

 

Yes..... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if all test matches are played either in Dhaka or Chittagong. 
Can you please look at his stats outside B'desh (especially his bowling) and then we will talk. 

[Trichromatic]

21 minutes ago, sarcastic said:

Yes..... 

if all test matches are played either in Dhaka or Chittagong. 
Can you please look at his stats outside B'desh (especially his bowling) and then we will talk. 

Averages 32 outside Bangladesh. Pretty decent record for a spinner. As a batsman he averages 40, better record than Pujara. Surely not a very good batsman or bowler, but good enough to be considered among top 6 batsman and top 4 bowler.

 

He has 3 5-fers in Eng and SA something which many spinners can't do. Ashwin has 2 5-fer outside Asia, Jadeja has 1. Ashwin averages 31.8 with ball in away matches. 

 

Anyway away records, country by country records and all that are discussed when you are contending that a player is great batsman or bowler or not. Shakib isn't a great batsman or bowler, but good enough as 5th or 6th batsman or your frontline spinner.

 

[SK_IH]

dont know about first but he certainly is that kind of all rounder,even stokes can be altough he tends to give away runs but is a wkt taker

[kira]

Probably, but would be a very mediocre player based on just one skill and won't last as long.

[Pollack]

Shakib-ul-hasan is a genuine allrounder. But not a very good one. But he is actually one who wouldn't get into a team purely based on one skill but both the skills though admittedly just about good in either. 

[Trichromatic]

48 minutes ago, kira said:

Probably, but would be a very mediocre player based on just one skill and won't last as long.

Mediocre how? Players with similar stats have played over 100 tests in many countries. He won't be great player, but that doesn't make him very mediocre.

[Trichromatic]

13 minutes ago, Pollack said:

Shakib-ul-hasan is a genuine allrounder. But not a very good one. But he is actually one who wouldn't get into a team purely based on one skill but both the skills though admittedly just about good in either. 

Which team won't pick a batsman averaging 41 or a spinner with 17 fifers in 50 matches? India maybe, but he will get into all other teams in world with his batting or bowling.

[Trichromatic]

List of batsmen who scored more than 3500 runs at avg 38-43 from 1980s.

 

 

There are many well known batsmen who had long career as specialist batsman.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;qualmax3=43;qualmin1=3500;qualmin3=38;qualval1=runs;qualval3=batting_average;spanmin1=01+Jan+1980;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

[King Tendulkar]

Would not get in to any top teams on batting alone 

 

next thread please 

[Executioner]

As a SLA in almost any team except India because Jaddu is doing well. With the bat he might not get into India and England 

 

But that being said Shakib never got to focus on one skill. If he focused on either batting and bowling his stats in one of them would be good enough to walk into sides as batsman and bowler alone. 

 

 

[rtmohanlal]

Shakib is  Tony Greig type of all rounder.A slightly better batsman than a bowler .And 17 5 fors is a bit misleading because only 3 of them are away from home against non minnows.But despite him  being averaging 40+ he only has 5 100s.Naturally we would expect more 100s than 5 fors from  such a type of all rounder. This indicates only one thing.A track record characterised by having played vast number of matches at home when compared to abroad.

 

Another thing is that when you take all rounders like Kapil,Botham, you need to judge their batting based on the bowler friendly era they played, their bat position, style of play(aggressive especially Kapil etc etc).

That adds up a lot more to their batting performances when measured against todays yardsticks.Likes of 

Kapil,Botham,Sobers Kallis etc etc are were  eligible for this criteria in their periods.The likes of Tony Greig,Vinoo Mankad & Keith Miller too.

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

Which team won't pick a batsman averaging 41 or a spinner with 17 fifers in 50 matches? India maybe, but he will get into all other teams in world with his batting or bowling.

we need to exclude minnows.

[rtmohanlal]

4 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Averages 32 outside Bangladesh. Pretty decent record for a spinner. As a batsman he averages 40, better record than Pujara. Surely not a very good batsman or bowler, but good enough to be considered among top 6 batsman and top 4 bowler.

 

He has 3 5-fers in Eng and SA something which many spinners can't do. Ashwin has 2 5-fer outside Asia, Jadeja has 1. Ashwin averages 31.8 with ball in away matches. 

 

Anyway away records, country by country records and all that are discussed when you are contending that a player is great batsman or bowler or not. Shakib isn't a great batsman or bowler, but good enough as 5th or 6th batsman or your frontline spinner.

 

Shakib's avg: outside Bangladesh is hugely boosted by the record  in WI vs a real minnow 2nd rated side.If you take that out, that avg: drops to around 36.5

[Trichromatic]

44 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Shakib is  Tony Greig type of all rounder.A slightly better batsman than a bowler .And 17 5 fors is a bit misleading because only 3 of them are away from home against non minnows.

If that is misleading then what do you say about the fact that most of the Indian spinners had lesser 5-fer than him outside Asia. Instead of being misleading that is reflection of his calibre.

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

But despite him  being averaging 40+ he only has 5 100s.Naturally we would expect more 100s than 5 fors from  such a type of all rounder. This indicates only one thing.A track record characterised by having played vast number of matches at home when compared to abroad.

More 100s. How many? He has more runs what Ganguly had in same number of innings. Is that not enough for specialist batsman?

[Trichromatic]

38 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

we need to exclude minnows.

Minnow, home-away all those scrutiny stands for comparing ATG and great players which are like 1 or 2 in a decade for each team.

[Executioner]

Shakib has only 5 centuries despite a high average because he gets out in 80s and 90s quite often. Got out in the 90s 3 times and once not out at 96. 

 

He has 22 half centuries along with 5 centuries that's around 27 50+ scores in 85+ innings which isn't bad for all allrounder. His bowling performance in Lanka and India are not great but bowling in 3 countries - NZ SA and England combined is really good. He took 40 wickets in these 3 countries at an average of 25 something

 

Actually. He played 3 tests in Zimbabwe and his bowling and batting record in Zimbabwe Is ordinary. Which means if you take out Zimbabwe his stats improve.

[rtmohanlal]

8 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

If that is misleading then what do you say about the fact that most of the Indian spinners had lesser 5-fer than him outside Asia. Instead of being misleading that is reflection of his calibre.

 

 

 

More 100s. How many? He has more runs what Ganguly had in same number of innings. Is that not enough for specialist batsman?

Agree with all except that not only Shakib  but the likes of

 Kapil,Botham,Sobers Kallis,Imran,Tony Greig,Vinoo Mankad,Keith Miller etc etc too could have walked into teams with either skill.

For instance take some one like Botham. He avg:ed  33.54 after 102 tests.Bowlers he faced were FAB4,Walsh,Akram,Imran,Hadlee,Lillee etc etc.All avg:ing under 25.Now how many avg: under 25 except Steyn? .The likes of Jadeja   ,Ashwin ,Rabada etc etc  would soon be avg:ing  way past 25 once they start to play lot more in unfavourable conditions.I am sure the mean avg: of top 10 bowlers Botham faced would atleast differ by 2 from what is the case with Shakib.That being the case Botham's 33.54 would be atleast  37.54 of today's(2 difference in   bowling avg: equals 4 difference in batting avg:)And we need to add in other factors too like comparatively lower str: rates in the 80s etc etc.These are the reasons I believe some one like Botham is lot closer to Shakib as a batsman then the difference in  plain avg: suggests. Similarly a   lot  with others too.

 

 

[Trichromatic]

36 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Shakib's avg: outside Bangladesh is hugely boosted by the record  in WI vs a real minnow 2nd rated side.If you take that out, that avg: drops to around 36.5

Not discussing whether he is an ATG batsman or ATG bowler. 

 

Premise of the OP is he is good enough batsman and good enough bowler to get into teams. Your 5th best or 6th batsman and first choice or 2nd choice spinner.

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

Agree with all except that not only Shakib  but the likes of

 Kapil,Botham,Sobers Kallis,Imran,Tony Greig,Vinoo Mankad,Keith Miller etc etc too could have walked into teams with either skill.

For instance take some one like Botham. He avg:ed  33.54 after 102 tests.Bowlers he faced were FAB4,Walsh,Akram,Imran,Hadlee,Lillee etc etc.All avg:ing under 25.Now how many avg: under 25 except Steyn? .The likes of Jadeja   ,Ashwin ,Rabada etc etc  would soon be avg:ing  way past 25 once they start to play lot more in unfavourable conditions.I am sure the mean avg: of top 10 bowlers Botham faced would atleast differ by 2 from what is the case with Shakib.That being the case Botham's 33.54 would be atleast  37.54 of today's(2 difference in   bowling avg: equals 4 difference in batting avg:)And we need to add in other factors too like comparatively lower str: rates in the 80s etc etc.These are the reasons I believe some one like Botham is lot closer to Shakib as a batsman then the difference in  plain avg: suggests. Similarly a   lot  with others too.

 

 

Not going in random calculation of would have been averages.

 

Highest Ratings as batsman for AR

Kapil - 598 (1982)

Imran - 650 (1991)

 

Kapil's best ranking was 21 and Imran's was 12 that too in 1990s. He averaged below 30 most of his career and outside top 30 batsman of world.  With 6-7 test teams in world, being outside 30 means they couldn't hold place in team as batsman. Their run production wasnt comparable to specialist bats.

 

Kallis didn't have numbers comparable to specialist bowlers. You wont find many teams consistently playing bowlers taking 1 wickets per inning on an average. Although he was a very good bowler and could have been regular pacer in teams like India and England(for first 10 years). He had pace and skills to do so, being in a team with ATG pacers meant he didn't have to take load of bowling though.