Manish Pandey should be given a proper run in ODIs at #4

[sandeep]

4 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

I agree with you, I was only talking in terms of which of the two deserves a spot over the other.  If Ankit_Sharma03 is correct, that these two are in direct competition for one spot in the middle order, then it's pretty clear, IMO, who is winning the battle right now and deserves the "long rope". 

 

The next World Cup is in ~2 years, so both players are going to get more chances from now until then, but there are only so many opportunities and spots in the team. Pandey, Rahul, Jadhav, and young players outside of the squad like Pant/Iyer/other young player will all be pushing for limited spots in the team, and, unless we rest players like Rohit/ Dhawan/Kohli,  there will only be so many batting opportunities from now until then. Every opportunity that Pandey or Rahul get, is one less for a Jadhav/Iyer/Pant, and vice versa, and, eventually, some player(s) are going to have to be put on the bench, as we need to determine whoever our first choice XI is and give them enough match practice as a unit as well.   There will be a lot of tough decisions for Kohli to make as we can't give everyone an equal amount of chances.

 

     

I've seen some goofy XI's on twitter during this series, one of them goes like this:

 

1) Rohit

2) Dhawan

3) Kohli

4) Dhoni

5) Jadhav

6) Chota Pandya

7) Mota Pandya

8) Jadeja

9) Axar

10) Bumrah

11) Shami

 

Basically just stuff the team with All-rounders.  

 

 

yeah.  Somehow Krunal Pandya merits international ODI selection based on a few slogged sixes and turning his arm over for "left arm spin" in the IPL.  Banjo, its a kiddish book cricket mentality - take out a Ravi jadeja here, plug in a "hitter" there, win the world cup.  Simple.  That's not how teams are built.  

 

We do have a need for a Krunal Pandya/Axar Patel type player but a solid, international calibre one.   Axar's bowling is one-note, and his batting while improved, is also limited - he's essentially a poor man's younger Jadeja at this point.  And Krunal, we have no inkling if he's going to be able to perform at the highest level, especially in the conditions that will be prevalent for the 2019 WC in England.  

[SK_IH]

8 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

to early to say that......to early 

So many players available at this time for ind, each one deserves equal chance

I know Rahul is quality player but he didn't even look good in the middle order,zabardasti no.4 player banane ki Kya zaroorat hai ?

[Laaloo]

With pandey in the side, we badly need big hitters at 5 and 6

[vijay50]

4. Manish Pandey/ Shreyas Iyer/ Rahane

5. Dhoni

6. Raina/ Shreyas Iyer/ Manish Pandey

7. Pandya/ Bhuvi/ Umesh

8. Ashwin/ Kuldeep

9. Jadeja/ Chahal/ Another leg spinner

10. Shami

11. Bumrah.

 

This is the team I like to see for WC in England. We will be covered for all slots.

 

[Shunya]

Agree. Pandey is pretty deserving to be #4 and should be given a longer run. Unfortunately that makes Rahul a backup option as another floater on need to basis. Can bat anywhere in top 4. However, we would still need a good no.6. Wish Raina was fit enough to make it. 

4. Pandey

5. Dhoni

6. Jadhav/Raina - This is still open spot

7. Pandya

 

[Rasgulla]

13 hours ago, Tibarn said:

Rahul's stats

Career summary

Grouping	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v England	3	3	0	24	11	8.00	34	70.58	0	0	0	3	1
v Sri Lanka	4	3	0	28	17	9.33	38	73.68	0	0	0	2	0
v Zimbabwe	3	3	2	196	100*	196.00	235	83.40	1	1	0	15	3

 

Nightmarish start...  

RCB quota 

[Rasgulla]

2 minutes ago, Shunya said:

Agree. Pandey is pretty deserving to be #4 and should be given a longer run. Unfortunately that makes Rahul a backup option as another floater on need to basis. Can bat anywhere in top 4. However, we would still need a good no.6. Wish Raina was fit enough to make it. 

4. Pandey

5. Dhoni

6. Jadhav/Raina - This is still open spot

7. Pandya

 

Perfect lineupspot on

Edited September 1, 2017 by Rasgulla

[Gollum]

I want to see Iyer in the team. Whatever little I have seen of him in the domestics he has greatness written all over him. It will be a tragedy if a genuine world class, electrifying batsman like him is kept out of the team till he is 28/29 years old. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

6 hours ago, SK_IH said:

So many players available at this time for ind, each one deserves equal chance

I know Rahul is quality player but he didn't even look good in the middle order,zabardasti no.4 player banane ki Kya zaroorat hai ?

Most big player became big coz they were backed, if he has been thought of next no 4 he shud be backed 

Now if manish performs he shud be given a go as well but a way has to be found to give rahul regular chances .

3-4 chances are to less specially when given a new position

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, SK_IH said:

So many players available at this time for ind, each one deserves equal chance

I know Rahul is quality player but he didn't even look good in the middle order,zabardasti no.4 player banane ki Kya zaroorat hai ?

according to your, Kohli could not have made it to this far for India if he wasn't once he failed early on in ODIs or even in tests.

[Samcric]

19 hours ago, sandeep said:

But he hit that GOAT 100 in his 1st T20 against West Indies.  That means he can hit boundaries, so he should automatically get 1st preference and 10x the chances than Pandey gets.  

 

/s

 

 

Pandey failed for an entire series against New Zealand. In fact just like that one famous 100 of Rahul, Pandey has THAT ONE FAMOUS 100 against Australia. And Kedar Jadhav has actually performed more often than the two.

 

Safe to say, none of the 3 has sealed their place in the Middle order and there is room for maximum of 2. In my view, KL Rahul should be opening the innings with either kohli or pant. He is not bad against spin - remember he scored in fifty in nearly each innings in that Australia test series. In this SL series, he is getting out to Dhananjay possibly because he is not picking him well. 

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Samcric said:

Pandey failed for an entire series against New Zealand. In fact just like that one famous 100 of Rahul, Pandey has THAT ONE FAMOUS 100 against Australia. And Kedar Jadhav has actually performed more often than the two.

 

Safe to say, none of the 3 has sealed their place in the Middle order and there is room for maximum of 2. In my view, KL Rahul should be opening the innings with either kohli or pant. He is not bad against spin - remember he scored in fifty in nearly each innings in that Australia test series. In this SL series, he is getting out to Dhananjay possibly because he is not picking him well. 

You missed the posts where I have stated repeatedly that KL Rahul should stay in the mix as the 3rd opener, and spare middle order batsman.   Rahul is younger than Pandey, he will get his chances.  And age aside, I simply believe Manish Pandey is the more seasoned prospect, hungrier and more "ready" for International cricket.  And his game is more suited for the demands of the #4 position than Rahul's.  Pandey is more accomplished against quality spin, and better at rotating strike.  If you think of the 50 overs of the ODI innings as 3 phases - the start with field restrictions, the middle, and the last 15 - our current batting lineup really only has Virat as a batsman who can control the middle and maximize run scoring while minimizing risk, and do so on a fairly consistent basis.  Dhoni can play the middle, but he is too slow in his first 30 balls IMO.  

 

An ideal ODI line-up for me, would have 3 guys at the top of the order, whose job is to attack and maximize run-scoring in the 1st phase, 2 batsmen who can control the middle and are capable of playing multiple roles - be reliable consistent quality bats who can consolidate if wickets fall, but still score quickly, build on good starts etc, and then 3 or more power hitters who can be unleashed in the last 15 overs.   

 

Virat is almost a perfect example of that #3 or #4 bat, and I see Pandey as another potential star in that role.   Rahul's instincts in batting are to attack, he's a born opener, and is more likely to succeed and do better for us at the top of the order.  And we can afford to have him wait a season or so, once Dhawan gets a bit older and his reflexes fade.   KLR can use the time to work on his fitness - for a young player he keeps getting injured on his own waaay too often.   

 

[SK_IH]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

according to your, Kohli could not have made it to this far for India if he wasn't once he failed early on in ODIs or even in tests.

Don't know how you brought in Kohli comparison,limited point i am making is what's the need of playing a player in a different position zabardasti

am I saying discard him completely? ,just don't want to see him in middle order,there are better options who played all their lives in middle order

[sandeep]

7 hours ago, Gollum said:

I want to see Iyer in the team. Whatever little I have seen of him in the domestics he has greatness written all over him. It will be a tragedy if a genuine world class, electrifying batsman like him is kept out of the team till he is 28/29 years old. 

I have high hopes for Shreyas Iyer and Sanju Samson.  Samson's wicket-keeping ability aside, I believe both these young prospects have the core batting ability that can really succeed in international ODI cricket.   But both are really suited to bat in the top 3.  

 

Its going to be quite a big log-jam for those positions in the next few years.   And with good reason.  Those are the spots that provide batsmen maximum opportunity and probability to hit those headline grabbing big scores that can catapult you to superstar-dom.  Just look at Virat and Tailunt.    

[maniac]

Still think Rahul will turn it around....no4 position in LOIs seems to be a problem for a while.....Project Yuvraj and Project Raina,Rohit Sharma before that when he was still not an opener all failed in that slot.dont think anyone has absolutely owned the no4 slot in Odis for us in a while

[sandeep]

15 minutes ago, maniac said:

Still think Rahul will turn it around....no4 position in LOIs seems to be a problem for a while.....Project Yuvraj and Project Raina,Rohit Sharma before that when he was still not an opener all failed in that slot.dont think anyone has absolutely owned the no4 slot in Odis for us in a while

In a perfect world, I would like to see Virat at #4.   I want the top 3 batsmen in the ODI lineup to bat with the primary responsibility of maximizing scoring in the first 15 overs.  Take risk and attack.  If they survive past the 15 overs, they can dig in for the big one.   And if a wicket doesn't fall in the 1st 15, then Virat reverts to the #3 position.   And we shouldn't risk Virat in that risky role - he should be batting in the middle 25 overs of the innings.  

 

I don't like the template that our team follows at the moment.  Our top 3 all start off their innings playing conservatively, spending valuable deliveries getting themselves 'in' for the big one.  And the times that they fail to kick on, that limited currency is spent with minimal run production.  

 

Look at how England or Australian openers bat in ODIs - they aren't planning or aiming to score 100s, they are aiming to score 8-10 RPO in the power-play.  

 

But I have been harping on this batting strategy issue since before the 2015 ODI World Cup.  And its a subject for a separate thread.

Edited September 1, 2017 by sandeep

[Forever Indian]

15 minutes ago, maniac said:

Still think Rahul will turn it around....no4 position in LOIs seems to be a problem for a while.....Project Yuvraj and Project Raina,Rohit Sharma before that when he was still not an opener all failed in that slot.dont think anyone has absolutely owned the no4 slot in Odis for us in a while

Forgot to include Project Rahane at no.4 as well.

[maniac]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

In a perfect world, I would like to see Virat at #4.   I want the top 3 batsmen in the ODI lineup to bat with the primary responsibility of maximizing scoring in the first 15 overs.  Take risk and attack.  If they survive past the 15 overs, they can dig in for the big one.   And if a wicket doesn't fall in the 1st 15, then Virat reverts to the #3 position.   And we shouldn't risk Virat in that risky role - he should be batting in the middle 25 overs of the innings.  

 

I don't like the template that our team follows at the moment.  Our top 3 all start off their innings playing conservatively, spending valuable deliveries getting themselves 'in' for the big one.  And the times that they fail to kick on, that limited currency is spent with minimal run production.  

 

Look at how England or Australian openers bat in ODIs - they aren't planning or aiming to score 100s, they are aiming to score 8-10 RPO in the power-play.  

 

But I have been harping on this batting strategy issue since before the 2015 ODI World Cup.  And its a subject for a separate thread.

I kind of agree but why change a winning formula? Kohli at no3 stats speak for itself

[maniac]

4 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

Forgot to include Project Rahane at no.4 as well.

Yep him too but I think Project Rahane is not permenantly shelved...Pandey or Rahul need to step up soon

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, maniac said:

I kind of agree but why change a winning formula? Kohli at no3 stats speak for itself

Winning formula?   In our version of the universe, Indian team lost in the semi-finals of the ODI world cup and finals of the Champions trophy - both games could have been won by better performances from the batting unit - That is how the Indian team has won historically - by out-doing opponents on the batting front.

 

And historically we are always slow to adapt to the tactical changes in ODI cricket.  We were the last major team to really match the top levels of fielding and fitness, even SL used to be better at fielding than us in the 2000s.   

 

We have just begun to realize the importance of Wrist spinners in ODI cricket -about 2 years too late.  

 

England, Australia are teams that regularly threaten to score 400 in ODIs.   For us, its a rare exception.  Our run production in the first 10 overs of ODIs is among the worst.      

 

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by sandeep