New guy Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Lannister said: The same thing was said about before Bumrah came into the picture. Its just a poor excuse for not giving opportunities to youngsters. No, its just a poor excuse of blindly worshipping speed guns for you that you down our most improved bowler but made a million excuses for umeshs poor test stats Texan and beetle 2 Link to comment
Pollack Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 2 hours ago, NareshK said: The idea that these youngsters are better than Bhuvi and they are world class just exists in your mind. For some idiots, whoever is not in the side is better irrespective of how good they actually are. In any case, if they are good they will get their chances eventually and they will replace Bhuvi. At the moment, he is one of the better options we got and hence playing in the X1. Simple as that. The idea that these youngsters are better than Bhuvi and they are world class just exists in your mind Anyone can be better than bhuvi in ODIs. Look at his abysmal stats. Mathews has better stats than bhuvi and he is a mediocre bowler. Secondly a youngster waiting doesn't need to be world class to debut in international. What kind of weird condition is that? I don't believe these youngaters to be world class because I don't see them play at world level. How should I know if they are? Why should I know if they are world class or not to want them to see play Internationals. Why is being world class a requirement for a making debut? That's the point first try them. Its not like bhuvi is world class either. The idea is not that these youngsters are better than bhuvi .The idea is we would never know if these kids are really good than current mediocres if you keep playing the mediocre players hoping them to be good some day. All I know is if there are some weak bowlers and batsmen in the team currently having had enough chances already I need to find an alternative. For some idiots, whoever is not in the side is better irrespective of how good they actually are. For some other idiots youngsters on the wait need to be freakishly good and set the domestics on fire, obviously maintain those freakish performance for years and once they feel these youngsters are capable enough to replace the Steyns and Starks of the world only then they should get a chance to replace whom? You got it right mediocres like Ishant Sharma, Bhuvaneshwar (ODIs atleast till now). Great thinking. In any case, if they are good they will get their chances eventually and they will replace Bhuvi. How does one eventually get chance? Does one need to wait forever like kedar. Isn't Ishant still sticking around in tests. Has anyone eventually got chance? Its funny because sometimes they refer Ishant as leader of bowling. What kind of bowling standards we have? No wonder our bowling attack is ridiculed by every other country even if they do reasonably well sometimes. Yes its true. You may like to believe otherwise. But this kind of approach is precisely the reason we are not progressing in bowling department. Get it etched in your mind taking wickets is crucial for tests and ODIs. Containing and being economical is jugadu way to hide incompetence. It may work for sometime and then boom at the most crucial matches against better oppositions. At the moment, he is one of the better options we got and hence playing in the X1. Simple as that. Now this is funny. Bhuvi is one of the better options without trying options. Link to comment
Pollack Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 ^ Having said that I want bhuvi to continue for some matches. Just want to watch him against AUS, SA, NZ and England batsmen in ODIs. However its ridiculous to make a judgement that he is a world class bowler now. Or our bowling is very good. Recently two average batting lineups spanked our bowlers like no tommorow. So hold onto your horses for sometime. SL series does not mean much. This series was meant to inflate stats. But it seems it ended up inflating Indian egos along. Laaloo 1 Link to comment
Lannister Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 19 hours ago, New guy said: When umesh stats sucked and sucked in tests for a long time hypocrites like you made a million excuses. In fact bhuvis test stats are still better than umesh. But you supported him, as pace. All of a sudden when it comes to odis, its all about stats. Admit it, if bhuvi clocked as much as umesh, you wouldn't even look at stats Yadav has been dropped from this series and you don't see me whining about that. Both Yadav and Kumar are equally bad in ODIs and both should get the same treatment. It is about time to look into what youngsters can do. Link to comment
Lannister Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 19 hours ago, New guy said: No, its just a poor excuse of blindly worshipping speed guns for you that you down our most improved bowler but made a million excuses for umeshs poor test stats Again I have no idea what you are talking about. Just look up the OP to see how Kumar averages against top teams. Link to comment
express bowling Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) On 9/3/2017 at 11:32 PM, prudent_kreeda said: I think he really improved his one day bowling after 2016 IPL and areas of improvement were : 1. Bowling at the death . He can bowl most of the time accurate yorkers. 2. Bit unpredictability at death overs can bowl yorkers, wide yorkers/ full pitch deliveries. 3. Good bouncers . 4. Added pace But in his opening spell , he is not getting much wickets - thts the negative part. Can you please list out his figures post June 2016 to till date ? Also if we can find a really good death bowler he is easily replacable . but right now i do not think we have any ready made package for death bowling . Career averages Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 unfiltered 71 70 575.0 52 2811 75 5/42 37.48 4.88 46.0 2 1 Profile filtered 14 13 105.1 8 513 15 5/42 34.20 4.87 42.0 0 1 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/326016.html?class=2;spanmin1=01+Jun+2016;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling Edited September 8, 2017 by express bowling Mosher 1 Link to comment
Samcric Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 On 9/3/2017 at 10:14 PM, Lannister said: Death bowling has more relevance in T20s, irrespective of how many wickets you take. But in ODIs, wickets and average are the two most important aspects for a bowler's success. Death bowling and economy rates are much more important today - given that that most teams bat deep and have more firepower. ODIs relate more to T20Is these days with 300s being scored more frequently. Take ICC ODI bowlers ranking for example - it takes both economy rate and average into account. And Bhuvi has been in the top 20 for a while. And having seen the other Indian bowlers in action, can't think of any one who can bowl yorkers/slower balls as well as Bhuvi and Bumrah. Can you suggest any bowlers who should be playing instead of Bhuvi? Texan, beetle and sandeep 1 2 Link to comment
Lannister Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 6 hours ago, Samcric said: Death bowling and economy rates are much more important today - given that that most teams bat deep and have more firepower. ODIs relate more to T20Is these days with 300s being scored more frequently. Take ICC ODI bowlers ranking for example - it takes both economy rate and average into account. And Bhuvi has been in the top 20 for a while. And having seen the other Indian bowlers in action, can't think of any one who can bowl yorkers/slower balls as well as Bhuvi and Bumrah. Can you suggest any bowlers who should be playing instead of Bhuvi? What economy rates? It is as bad as his average against top teams, infact it's even close to 7 in some cases. Basil Thampi can bowl good yorkers and has even shown the ability to take wickets at a good ER. Not to mention there are many more who are coming through the ranks. A team with good bowlers who can take wickets, will be the team to win tournaments. For example, Aus in 2015 WC, Pak in 2017 CT. Link to comment
Pollack Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Samcric said: Death bowling and economy rates are much more important today - given that that most teams bat deep and have more firepower. ODIs relate more to T20Is these days with 300s being scored more frequently. The problem is no matter how hard one tries he is going to leak runs these days. In fact economy rates would get more irrelevant in ODIs.Better is to take wickets and put pressure. No matter how deep one bats if you take wickets there is always pressure built.Not in t20s though because even a single maiden over can be gold. And even if wickets fall one has to only survive for 20 overs (unlike ODIs where playing 50 overs is much important)and hence batsmen can keep playing shots. Edited September 9, 2017 by Pollack Mosher 1 Link to comment
gakgupta Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 On 9/4/2017 at 2:12 AM, Pollack said: The idea that these youngsters are better than Bhuvi and they are world class just exists in your mind Anyone can be better than bhuvi in ODIs. Look at his abysmal stats. Mathews has better stats than bhuvi and he is a mediocre bowler. Secondly a youngster waiting doesn't need to be world class to debut in international. What kind of weird condition is that? I don't believe these youngaters to be world class because I don't see them play at world level. How should I know if they are? Why should I know if they are world class or not to want them to see play Internationals. Why is being world class a requirement for a making debut? That's the point first try them. Its not like bhuvi is world class either. The idea is not that these youngsters are better than bhuvi .The idea is we would never know if these kids are really good than current mediocres if you keep playing the mediocre players hoping them to be good some day. All I know is if there are some weak bowlers and batsmen in the team currently having had enough chances already I need to find an alternative. For some idiots, whoever is not in the side is better irrespective of how good they actually are. For some other idiots youngsters on the wait need to be freakishly good and set the domestics on fire, obviously maintain those freakish performance for years and once they feel these youngsters are capable enough to replace the Steyns and Starks of the world only then they should get a chance to replace whom? You got it right mediocres like Ishant Sharma, Bhuvaneshwar (ODIs atleast till now). Great thinking. In any case, if they are good they will get their chances eventually and they will replace Bhuvi. How does one eventually get chance? Does one need to wait forever like kedar. Isn't Ishant still sticking around in tests. Has anyone eventually got chance? Its funny because sometimes they refer Ishant as leader of bowling. What kind of bowling standards we have? No wonder our bowling attack is ridiculed by every other country even if they do reasonably well sometimes. Yes its true. You may like to believe otherwise. But this kind of approach is precisely the reason we are not progressing in bowling department. Get it etched in your mind taking wickets is crucial for tests and ODIs. Containing and being economical is jugadu way to hide incompetence. It may work for sometime and then boom at the most crucial matches against better oppositions. At the moment, he is one of the better options we got and hence playing in the X1. Simple as that. Now this is funny. Bhuvi is one of the better options without trying options. In recently concluded champions trophy, all the cricketers rated Bhuvi as most impactful pace bowler after Mitc Stark.. Well that means he is a pretty good bowler and batsmen respect him a lot... we have a habit of ridiculing our bowlers.....Not that he is great but he doing his job and deserves to be in the ODI side...Someone has put the stats out....pls compare with all others bowlers and avg will be pretty similar....these days 300 is common in one dayers (esp if you are playing in India) Any-day i will pick Bhuvi over Shardul <if Shardul is the next best option available> beetle 1 Link to comment
Texan Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Lannister said: What economy rates? It is as bad as his average against top teams, infact it's even close to 7 in some cases. Basil Thampi can bowl good yorkers and has even shown the ability to take wickets at a good ER. Not to mention there are many more who are coming through the ranks. A team with good bowlers who can take wickets, will be the team to win tournaments. For example, Aus in 2015 WC, Pak in 2017 CT. What was Basil Thampi's ER in IPL? beetle 1 Link to comment
Lannister Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, Texan said: What was Basil Thampi's ER in IPL? Didn't he bowl well in the recently concluded series against SA A? Success in T20s does not equate to success in one day format. ER is the important aspect in T20s while wickets in ODIs. Link to comment
rkt.india Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) He at least gets one thing right that is ER more often than not. Rest of our pacers struggle in every department. I wont blame BK for being defensive. We need a good wicket taking 3rd seamer. An attack of BK, Bumrah, Shami can be very good in most conditions but we play Pandya as the 3rd seamer who at best is a 4th seamer like Stokes for England. It does weaken our bowling. We cannot let someone one like Shami sit out for Pandya. Shami can be rested time to time but even then we will need a suitable replacement. I would be tempting to try someone like Ankit Rajpoot as the 3rd seamer when Shami is rested. Edited September 9, 2017 by rkt.india beetle and Mosher 2 Link to comment
Lannister Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 1 hour ago, gakgupta said: Any-day i will pick Bhuvi over Shardul <if Shardul is the next best option available lol.. Why are you fixating on Shardul though? Yes he had a bad day but it was his debut series. Besides there are many more potential bowlers coming through and its foolish not to try them and depend on the current mediocre bunch. Link to comment
express bowling Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 2 hours ago, rkt.india said: An attack of BK, Bumrah, Shami can be very good in most conditions but we play Pandya as the 3rd seamer who at best is a 4th seamer like Stokes for England. It does weaken our bowling. We cannot let someone one like Shami sit out for Pandya. What will be your No.7 to No.11 in that case ? 2 hours ago, rkt.india said: Shami can be rested time to time but even then we will need a suitable replacement. I would be tempting to try someone like Ankit Rajpoot as the 3rd seamer when Shami is rested. Ankit Rajpoot is another low wickets-per-match and low ER bowler in List A. He is better as a back-up for Bhuvi but is not a replacement for Shami, who is high wickets-per-match ODI pacer. Kerberos and Mosher 1 1 Link to comment
express bowling Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Samcric said: Can you suggest any bowlers who should be playing instead of Bhuvi? We should look to create a pool of good ODI pacers and rotate them. Bhuvi is definitely one of them due to his low ER and good death bowling abilities. But, if Shami is fit, it would be very unfair to exclude him from the 11 too, as he is a wicket-taking bowler and has 91 wickets from only 49 ODIs ( 1.9 wickets per match ..... Wow ) We suffered in the CT final, as we had only 1 wicket-taking bowler in Bumrah, and he failed. Edited September 9, 2017 by express bowling Mosher 1 Link to comment
rkt.india Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 6 minutes ago, express bowling said: What will be your No.7 to No.11 in that case ? Our second spinner must be an alrounder, someone better and more reliable than Jaddu to bat at 6 or 7. 3 specialist pacers are needed. We need to try Krunal as 2nd spinner. A 2nd spinner as alrounder will provide us more balance in subcontinent. In places like Aus, SA, NZ, England 4th seamer who is alrounder will balance the side. Link to comment
rkt.india Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 17 minutes ago, express bowling said: Ankit Rajpoot is another low wickets-per-match and low ER bowler in List A. He is better as a back-up for Bhuvi but is not a replacement for Shami, who is high wickets-per-match ODI pacer. I would ideally like a quick left arm seamer as 3rd seamer. Need to try someone like Sangwan and Kulwant for that. Link to comment
express bowling Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) We need to create a pool of atleast 5 specialist ODI pacers if not more. ( High wickets-per-match bowlers are very important in ODIs ) High wickets-per-match ---- Shami, Bumrah Death bowling good ---- Bumrah , Bhuvi Low ER ---- Bumrah, Bhuvi New ones .... I would prefer high wickets-per-match type ..... try out Siraj, Khejroliya, Nagarkoti, Nathu ----- 1 more low ER death bowling specialist needs to be developed too, for backup Edited September 9, 2017 by express bowling Mosher 1 Link to comment
express bowling Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, rkt.india said: Our second spinner must be an alrounder, someone better and more reliable than Jaddu to bat at 6 or 7. 3 specialist pacers are needed. We need to try Krunal as 2nd spinner. A 2nd spinner as alrounder will provide us more balance in subcontinent. In places like Aus, SA, NZ, England 4th seamer who is alrounder will balance the side. 6. Krunal ( batting all-rounder - spinner ) 7. Hardik ( batting all-rounder - pacer ) 8. Bhuvi ( Low ER death bowler, can bat a bit ) 9. Kudeep ( Wicket-taking spinner ) 10. Shami / Khejroliya / Siraj / Nagarkoti ( Wicket-taking pacer's slot ) 11. Bumrah ( wicket-taking and economical pacer ) Edited September 9, 2017 by express bowling RAZPOR and Kerberos 1 1 Link to comment
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