Dhoni's standing in the pantheon of ODI legends/greats?

[Vilander]

On 05/09/2017 at 11:22 PM, SK_IH said:

we might see him in madame tussauds soon ,you never know 

Lol good one

[BeautifulGame]

Let alone Dhoni vs Gilly, no way Gilchrist being picked ahead Jayasurya in ODIs .

 

Gilly for all him attacking batting is nowhere near Jayasurya in destructive batting. He could never destroy a bowling attack like Jayasurya could . Gilly is more in the Sehwag mode whereas Jayasuriya is a level above them in destruction prowess .Would walk into the ODI world XI as opener with Sachin. He revolutionized how odi cricket is played like no other .

 

 

And thats without mentioning the bowling of Jayasurya. We could genuinely make a case for Jayasurya to be the best left arm off spinner of all time in ODIs as well.

 

Heck even if there is no MSD , one can pick Sangakkara or AD De Villiers instead of Gilly to play in middle order and and open with Jayasuriya and justify it . Both are far more consistent batsmen than Gilchrist and De Villiers can be just as destructive too .

 

 

[rkt.india]

19 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Let alone Dhoni vs Gilly, no way Gilchrist being picked ahead Jayasurya in ODIs .

 

Gilly for all him attacking batting is nowhere near Jayasurya in destructive batting. He could never destroy a bowling attack like Jayasurya could . Gilly is more in the Sehwag mode whereas Jayasuriya is a level above them in destruction prowess .Would walk into the ODI world XI as opener with Sachin. He revolutionized how odi cricket is played like no other .

 

 

And thats without mentioning the bowling of Jayasurya. We could genuinely make a case for Jayasurya to be the best left arm off spinner of all time in ODIs as well.

 

Heck even if there is no MSD , one can pick Sangakkara or AD De Villiers instead of Gilly to play in middle order and and open with Jayasuriya and justify it . Both are far more consistent batsmen than Gilchrist and De Villiers can be just as destructive too .

 

 

Gilchrist has a higher SR, better average. You must be kidding saying Gilchrist has not destroyed attacks. 

[MCcricket]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Gilchrist has a higher SR, better average. You must be kidding saying Gilchrist has not destroyed attacks. 

But Gilchrist doesn't have Tamil DNA, lol.

[Ankit_sharma03]

Many people missed out on bond, His career was affected by injuries but still has brilliant stats

 

ODIs

82

80

4295

3070

147

6/19

6/19

20.88

4.28

29.2

7

4

0

 

These are amazing stats and more importantly this guy use to perform against the mighty aussies 

[BeautifulGame]

Gilchrist has a higher SR, better average. You must be kidding saying Gilchrist has not destroyed attacks. 

Nowhere near what Jayasuriya was.

 

He has better stats than Jayasuriya because , Jayasuriya simply stated too long damaging his stats.

 

It's like saying Sangakkara has better stats than Lara ,so must be better batsman too.

 

 

 

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Nowhere near what Jayasuriya was.

 

He has better stats than Jayasuriya because , Jayasuriya simply stated too long damaging his stats.

 

It's like saying Sangakkara has better stats than Lara ,so must be better batsman too.

 

 

 

if Jaysuriya was such a destroyer, he would have had a higher SR but he does not. Regarding average, his average was never great because he was not that consistent. He was an Indian bowling basher. he averages 23 against Aus in Aus, 20 against SA in SA.

Edited September 15, 2017 by rkt.india

[Muloghonto]

34 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

if Jaysuriya was such a destroyer, he would have had a higher SR but he does not. Regarding average, his average was never great because he was not that consistent. He was an Indian bowling basher. he averages 23 against Aus in Aus, 20 against SA in SA.

Jayasurya played from 89 onwards hello...when 60-70 strike rate was considered par. 

infact, if you see his stats, its clear that Jayasurya had a strike rate of 73 till 1995. 

From 1995 onwards, his strike rate never dipped below 80, which is excellent for the 90s onwards.  his strike rate from 1995-2011 is 93.32. 

Amazing. 

Gillchrist had the cushiest ODI job ever- no care, just bash, every innings. He was not required to build (Jayasurya was, since SL batting was far more brittle and revolved around him & DeSilva, then him and Jaya/Sanga), he had the best bowling lineup and the best batting lineup to come after him. 

Gilchrist can be replaced by Dhoni in an alltime LOI side. Partnearing Sachin- the options are pretty much Jayasurya or Sehwag and Jaya's much,much better fielding and bowling puts him ahead of Veeru in ODIs in my book. 

[rkt.india]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Jayasurya played from 89 onwards hello...when 60-70 strike rate was considered par. 

infact, if you see his stats, its clear that Jayasurya had a strike rate of 73 till 1995. 

From 1995 onwards, his strike rate never dipped below 80, which is excellent for the 90s onwards.  his strike rate from 1995-2011 is 93.32. 

Amazing. 

Gillchrist had the cushiest ODI job ever- no care, just bash, every innings. He was not required to build (Jayasurya was, since SL batting was far more brittle and revolved around him & DeSilva, then him and Jaya/Sanga), he had the best bowling lineup and the best batting lineup to come after him. 

Gilchrist can be replaced by Dhoni in an alltime LOI side. Partnearing Sachin- the options are pretty much Jayasurya or Sehwag and Jaya's much,much better fielding and bowling puts him ahead of Veeru in ODIs in my book. 

Gilchrist was never required to build and still has better average than Jaisuriya. Who told you Jaisuriya was required to build. Since 1996, he had only one job that is to open and bash bowlers. There was no building or consolidating **** with Jaisuriya. I will take Sehwag over Jaisuriya as batsman, has both better average and SR. Both were highly inconsistent. Jaisuriya was bit India basher on SC pitches. has done zilch in Aus and SA.

[BeautifulGame]

if Jaysuriya was such a destroyer, he would have had a higher SR but he does not. Regarding average, his average was never great because he was not that consistent. He was an Indian bowling basher. he averages 23 against Aus in Aus, 20 against SA in SA.

Er because he debuted a mere 7 years before Gilly for starters.



Gilchrist has just 2 100s in India,Pakistan,Srilanka ,UAE and heck even Bangladesh combined.Jayasuriya has 3 hundreds in Australia alone lol

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Gilchrist was never required to build and still has better average than Jaisuriya. Who told you Jaisuriya was required to build. Since 1996, he had only one job that is to open and bash bowlers. There was no building or consolidating **** with Jaisuriya. I will take Sehwag over Jaisuriya as batsman, has both better average and SR. Both were highly inconsistent. Jaisuriya was bit India basher on SC pitches. has done zilch in Aus and SA.

False.

He was a top 3 batsman in a side not brimming with batting talent. by definition, that puts you in a 'situational scenario', requiring to build as needed/blast as needed. 

Jaya and Sehwag are comparable ODI batsmen- but Jaya is a way, way better cricketer, due to his way, way better fielding and bowling. 

In ODIs, if two batsmen are comparable, the one with better fielding wins out. Pretty straightfoward. that Jayasurya is one of the best '6th bowler' in ODIs, adds to his case over Sehwag.

 

You can't compare a 1990s batsman's strike rate with one from the 2000s- in 1990s, 250 was a defendable score against almost anyone if you bowled decently. 2000s onwards, nothing short of 270-280 is safe from anyone.

 

[rkt.india]

31 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Er because he debuted a mere 7 years before Gilly for starters.



Gilchrist has just 2 100s in India,Pakistan,Srilanka ,UAE and heck even Bangladesh combined.Jayasuriya has 3 hundreds in Australia alone lol
 

jaysuriya overall averages 23 in Aus against Aus. how many he 100s he had does not matter. While Gilchrist averages 39 against India in India. It shows he was more consistent even without scoring many 100s.

Edited September 15, 2017 by rkt.india

[BeautifulGame]

jaysuriya overall averages 23 in Aus against Aus. how many he 100s he had does not matter. While Gilchrist averages 39 against India in India. It shows he was more consistent even without scoring many 100s.

Yes 100 does matter .

One of key traits of any great batsman is scoring 100s.

[Rasgulla]

@Khotaapply some kotha facts to the polls please 

[Muloghonto]

tbh, Gilly also lucked out a bit, because he caught the tail end of Donald-Ambrose-Walsh-Ws era. Because both batsmen had obvious weaknesses that they could fall victim to: dry up the square-cut for Jayasurya and he'd take on a ball for the leg-side he would eventually miscue or not connect. Get Gilly to drive and move the ball around and he is toast. 

Gilly was the most pressure-free batman ever because he is an allrounder: how much can Gilly, like Dhoni, ever really fail with the bat, if they rescue the team with their gloves ? stealing run-outs/pulling off blinders ? Add on top, a pressure-free environment, of opening the innings for Australia at a time when Ponting,Waugh, Martyn,Clarke,Lehmann,Hussey,Symonds etc. called it middle order. On top, the best bowling attack of its time. 

Gilly was a good batsman, but a quickfire guy who is inconsistent opening, are not hard to find. Sehwag and Jayasurya are other alternatives.

For eg, if i go with 'peak Dhoni' as my finisher + keeper, Gilly automatically loses out to Jayasurya: also a leftie. Yes, a less reliable batsman, but one who offers excellent ground-fielding, high energy and one of the best ever 6th bowling option. 

 

So there is no right answer for this question. Depends on how you build your team. 

 

In ODIs, i feel there are only 2 certainties : Sachin and Viv. Rest- we can argue over. IMO, one of the oft overlooked players for alltime discussion these days, is Lara. Who, IMO was an amazing ODI batsman, who declined a lot near the end.   

[BeautifulGame]

tbh, Gilly also lucked out a bit, because he caught the tail end of Donald-Ambrose-Walsh-Ws era. Because both batsmen had obvious weaknesses that they could fall victim to: dry up the square-cut for Jayasurya and he'd take on a ball for the leg-side he would eventually miscue or not connect. Get Gilly to drive and move the ball around and he is toast. 

Gilly was the most pressure-free batman ever because he is an allrounder: how much can Gilly, like Dhoni, ever really fail with the bat, if they rescue the team with their gloves ? stealing run-outs/pulling off blinders ? Add on top, a pressure-free environment, of opening the innings for Australia at a time when Ponting,Waugh, Martyn,Clarke,Lehmann,Hussey,Symonds etc. called it middle order. On top, the best bowling attack of its time. 
Gilly was a good batsman, but a quickfire guy who is inconsistent opening, are not hard to find. Sehwag and Jayasurya are other alternatives.
For eg, if i go with 'peak Dhoni' as my finisher + keeper, Gilly automatically loses out to Jayasurya: also a leftie. Yes, a less reliable batsman, but one who offers excellent ground-fielding, high energy and one of the best ever 6th bowling option. 
 
So there is no right answer for this question. Depends on how you build your team. 
 
In ODIs, i feel there are only 2 certainties : Sachin and Viv. Rest- we can argue over. IMO, one of the oft overlooked players for alltime discussion these days, is Lara. Who, IMO was an amazing ODI batsman, who declined a lot near the end.   

Wasim Akram would be as much a certainty as Sachin is in world XI .

[Jimmy Cliff]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

IMO, one of the oft overlooked players for alltime discussion these days, is Lara. Who, IMO was an amazing ODI batsman, who declined a lot near the end. 

Lara when he batted in the top 3 was the best top order ODI batsman since Viv, yeah even better than SRT. His record regressed big-time once he started batting in the middle order. His record in ODIs from 1993-97 is astonishing. IIRC he was ranked no. 1 in the official rankings for the best part of 5 years.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, BeautifulGame said:

Wasim Akram would be as much a certainty as Sachin is in world XI .
 

I almost agree...its funny- i initally wrote '3 certainties and Akram' before modifying it. 

I just think Akram just doesn't get included in some people's XI enough- everyone always includes tendy and Viv for Odis.

 

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Lara when he batted in the top 3 was the best top order ODI batsman since Viv, yeah even better than SRT. His record regressed big-time once he started batting in the middle order. His record in ODIs from 1993-97 is astonishing. IIRC he was ranked no. 1 in the official rankings for the best part of 5 years.

Hmm, i'd say Peak Sachin in ODIs was easily better than peak Lara, though Peak Lara was closer to Peak Sachin than most realize. Sachin straight-up did what Lara did- utterly demolish attacks and score a moutain of runs- for just a lot more. Remember, in those days,WI played 5 test series regular vs ENG, AUS and RSA and we played like 25-30 ODIs per year with 5-9 tests max. 

 

he was a gun #3,infact, I wouldn't mind seeing Lara instead of Kohli in an alltime XI because I've seen Lara utterly demolish a great bowling lineup on a balanced pitch too often to discount his claim. 

thing with Lara, in ODIs and to some extent tests, was that he was a very shaky starter. but once Lara started, he was almost impossible to out. 

 

But yea, i rememeber the period you are talking of- somewhere in the 96-98 period , IIRC, Lara topped out at 47-48 career ODI average- back when Sachin was slowly climbing his career average and was in the high 30s-40/41.

[Jimmy Cliff]

11 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Hmm, i'd say Peak Sachin in ODIs was easily better than peak Lara, though Peak Lara was closer to Peak Sachin than most realize. Sachin straight-up did what Lara did- utterly demolish attacks and score a moutain of runs- for just a lot more. Remember, in those days,WI played 5 test series regular vs ENG, AUS and RSA and we played like 25-30 ODIs per year with 5-9 tests max. 

 

he was a gun #3,infact, I wouldn't mind seeing Lara instead of Kohli in an alltime XI because I've seen Lara utterly demolish a great bowling lineup on a balanced pitch too often to discount his claim. 

thing with Lara, in ODIs and to some extent tests, was that he was a very shaky starter. but once Lara started, he was almost impossible to out. 

 

But yea, i rememeber the period you are talking of- somewhere in the 96-98 period , IIRC, Lara topped out at 47-48 career ODI average- back when Sachin was slowly climbing his career average and was in the high 30s-40/41.

Tbh Lara was a lot more consistent than SRT against the best attacks of the time (strictly in ODIs). While SRT was more explosive, Lara got the big scores more often against the likes of SA/PAK/AUS. I also think his peak (93-97) lasted longer than SRT's (96-98). The one area where SRT scored over Lara was their performances in tournament finals. Lara had one truly great innings (153 at Sharjah against a peak Waqar in 93') but apart from that didn't do much.