MS Dhoni mega discussion thread

[Muloghonto]

8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I would love such a player too.  But, that average is almost totally dependent on playing against the 8th and 9th ranked teams in ODIs  barring one really good innings against England. ( WI could not make it to CT 17 and SL is going through a real low now )

 

Here are the averages and SRs of Indian batters against the top 7 ODI teams in the last 2 years

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
V Kohli	2015-2017	22	22	5	1427	154*	83.94	1449	98.48	5	9	0	117	23
HH Pandya	2016-2017	11	7	3	256	76	64.00	183	139.89	0	2	0	16	13
Yuvraj Singh	2017-2017	7	6	1	308	150	61.60	284	108.45	1	1	0	41	7
RG Sharma	2015-2017	19	19	2	1045	171*	61.47	1119	93.38	4	4	1	96	31
KM Jadhav	2016-2017	12	8	2	331	120	55.16	261	126.81	1	1	1	35	9
S Dhawan	2015-2017	16	16	0	638	126	39.87	680	93.82	1	5	0	82	8
AM Rahane	2015-2017	15	14	0	532	89	38.00	609	87.35	0	6	0	50	8
MS Dhoni	2015-2017	22	19	1	659	134	36.61	749	87.98	1	2	1	47	20

 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=7;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=200;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=14+Sep+2017;spanmin1=14+Sep+2015;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

 

Yes, because last year was an uncharacteristic low for Dhoni in ODIs. this year, its back to business. Agree, he hasn't played against top teams yet this year. But you only play what you are given and so far, Dhoni this year has been stellar at accumulating. 

[velu]

@Muloghonto  

 

 

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Promotion is not the way- his right position is at 5 and for long term we have to find no.4 , dhoni doesnt have many years left in him. His s/r have fallen and he himself has to imrpove and figure his game. No player is bigger then team 

 

Saha will not make to LOI setup- Many will tell u that will a guarantee . I dnt even see him lasting long in test cricket from Sa tour to 

 

Its not about audition only- its also about giving the next best a chance to prove himself and i see pant as that and u Saha and some may see samson or kishen but there are enough opportunities to try others . T20 is one format to start with where dhoni is very below avg and neither will he play next t20 WC 

Yes, yes long term. While we are calling Santa, lets get 2 atg allrounders as well- one preferably an Atg bat who spins and other an atg fastman who bats, while we are at it.

 

We have what we have and what we have, is no set player for #4. 

Saha may not make the LOI setup as long as Dhoni is there. that is fine. But if your precious Rishab goes home crying to mummy, we will run for help from Saha at that time, thats a guarantee. 

 

No reason to rush the kids when we have Saha to breech the gap. till Dhoni fades as a keeper and cannot score runs, he is our ace. uttapa, whatever are our 1-2 match stand-ins. We can call Saha if Dhoni is injured. the kids need to marinate more. 

[Laaloo]

You cannot have pandey and dhoni in the middle order in this day and age. They both suck the momentum out of the innings. They both need another batsman at the other end who can take singles and hit boundaries. If you can't understand this, then its time to stop watching cricket altogether. 

 

 

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes, because last year was an uncharacteristic low for Dhoni in ODIs. this year, its back to business. Agree, he hasn't played against top teams yet this year. But you only play what you are given and so far, Dhoni this year has been stellar at accumulating. 

Which is why I want to see how he does against the stronger ODI teams.

 

If he does ok, due to his tweaked batting technique, it will lend more balance to our team.

[Muloghonto]

29 minutes ago, maniac said:

No.4 to accommodate an old player on the down low...please no.

 

and as far as this best pure keeper thing goes,that would be Saha and I think we can agree on that.

 

since when is not going for first slip catches considered a gold standard for great keepers.

 

yeah he can hold on to a straightforward catch,what a rare attribute

 

stumpings I will give him that best I have ever seen but then again I wonder how many stumping even some of the popular keepers like Dujon or Dave Richardson have done in their lifetimes.

 

odi cricket has moved on from the 90s and early 2000s of teams stacking their side with spinners...the new rules and new era gives a need to have 3 or even 4 fast bowlers in the side...and keeping to fast bowling don't think Dhoni is really comfortable in that area.

I don't care if Dhoni is 40. If he is this fit, all the kids can sit and watch. A player who is accumulating, is not on the down low. He is stellar gold standard as a wicketkeeper. its mind boggling you are failing to see that.

Going for 1st slip catches is a great thing. And if he did, Dhoni would blow away Gilly as the best limited over keeper ever. that you fail to see. 

And yes, its a rare attribute indeed to find keepers who don't drop straightforward catches. Ask Gillespie if he'd prefer Dhoni over Healy in Barbados 99, where Lara could've been had at 135-140 and WI would be 9 down with Walsh walking in for Lara, not to keep Lara company. 

Dhoni is just fine keeping to fast bowlers. Safe hands, excellent ability with wayward deliveries..do you acutually watch any of his keeping or are you just bastman/ball fixated ?

 

Don't beat around the bush. its basic cricketing knowledge that as far as batting goes, Indian team is failing to use Dhoni better. Because when 40+runs/innings, 90 average, 80 strike rate guy is being asked to finish the innings, failure lies with management and team org. time for promotion.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Muloghonto

[maniac]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes, yes long term. While we are calling Santa, lets get 2 atg allrounders as well- one preferably an Atg bat who spins and other an atg fastman who bats, while we are at it.

 

We have what we have and what we have, is no set player for #4. 

Saha may not make the LOI setup as long as Dhoni is there. that is fine. But if your precious Rishab goes home crying to mummy, we will run for help from Saha at that time, thats a guarantee. 

 

No reason to rush the kids when we have Saha to breech the gap. till Dhoni fades as a keeper and cannot score runs, he is our ace. uttapa, whatever are our 1-2 match stand-ins. We can call Saha if Dhoni is injured. the kids need to marinate more. 

Serious question have you seen Rishabh keep? He took some blinders in the IPL and was very safe throughout....even in domestics he has no reputation of being clumsy...so on what basis are you writing of a 19 year old kid without even watching him?

 

I cannot guarantee a 100% that he will have a more successful career than Dhoni...sure?

 

can you guarantee the same for sure  that he won't and will be a failure?

 

how do you know without even trying someone...especially when that someone is talked about as the next big thing and has a string of performances and a purple patch in recent times to boot?

 

Also Dhoni is a poor keeper to pacers when the ball is swinging, he has a lot of flaws while keeping to fast bowlers...he is magnificent against spin infact when it comes to one area of stumping better than Saha as well...all he is is a safe keeper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Laaloo]

Sachin after the 2011 WC where he was Indias top scorer by the way till the day of his retirement, India played 30 Odis. He featured in only 10 of them. So we had enough time and enough matches to groom other openers.

 

 

 

And here Dhoni makes sures he even plays against Papua New Guinea so his chamchas can celebrate his 100 balls without a boundary knock in this day and age. This is the same guy who even used to play in dead rubbers so other wk wouldnt get a chance to play.  

Edited September 14, 2017 by Laaloo

[Muloghonto]

Just now, maniac said:

Serious question have you seen Rishabh keep? He took some blinders in the IPL and was very safe throughout....even in domestics he has no reputation of being clumsy...so on what basis are you writing of a 19 year old kid without even watching him?

 

I cannot guarantee a 100% that he will have a more successful career than Dhoni...sure?

 

can you guarantee the same for sure  that he won't and will be a failure?

 

how do you know without even trying someone...especially when that someone is talked about as the next big thing and has a string of performances and a purple patch in recent times to boot?

 

Also Dhoni is a poor keeper to pacers when the ball is swinging, he has a lot of flaws while keeping to fast bowlers...he is magnificent against spin infact when it comes to one area of stumping better than Saha as well...all he is is a safe keeper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Writing off ? I am clapping hard for the kid. Saying wow, kid has potential. Now kid needs to do more and no, he is not Dhoni level keeper -nowhere close. Kid needs to marinate more. Remember, Gilly came at 27/28 years old. I am not asking for that long, one of Pant & Kishan will cement as an atg if we play it right and they start becoming regulars by 24/25 years of age.

 

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, Laaloo said:

Sachin after the 2011 WC where he was Indias top scorer by the way till the day of his retirement, India played 30 Odis. He featured in only 10 of them. So we had enough time and enough matches to groom other openers.

 

 

 

And here Dhoni makes sures he even plays against Papua New Guinea so his chamchas can celebrate his 100 balls without a boundary knock in this day and age. This is the same guy who even used to play in dead rubbers so other wk wouldnt get a chance to play.  

thank you for describing a normal, sports professional.

His job is to play as much as he can and make as much money doing it, while contributing to the team currently. Check, check and checkmate. 

Haters gonna hate. 

[Laaloo]

Even Pakistani are blooding new guys, well granted they have fake birth certificates and lie about their age, and here some idiot is saying a young guy who looks like a generational talent needs to wait 5 more years because one guy and his obsession with remaining not out at any given cost regardless whether team wins or loses wants to extend his career that should have been over years back....

 

 

You're kidding me?  

[Laaloo]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

thank you for describing a normal, sports professional.

His job is to play as much as he can and make as much money doing it, while contributing to the team currently. Check, check and checkmate. 

Haters gonna hate. 

Yah keep clapping when dhoni comes to the crease and takes the momentum out of the innings. Keep clapping when Dhoni defends a full toss in the 47th over. 

 

We are haters because we realize the flaws within the team and want us to do better so we dont get embarassed. Great logic

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Laaloo said:

Even Pakistani are blooding new guys, well granted they have fake birth certificates and lie about their age, and here some idiot is saying a young guy who looks like a generational talent needs to wait 5 more years because one guy and his obsession with remaining not out at any given cost regardless whether team wins or loses wants to extend his career that should have been over years back....

 

 

You're kidding me?  

You don't say. Parosees blowing up the team, playing musical chairs with captains, players re-retiring, players un-un-un-retiring...oh heavens, what tragedy !! Kayaamat!!!

 

And yeah, generational talent waits behind generational talent, when generational talent still putting up good performances. Pretty straightforward. Sometimes, you can be 'unlucky generational talent' to get completely railroaded by a previous Generational talent just having extraordinary long careers or just lucky enough to be just a bit better at the start. I suspect, one of Rishabh and Kishan will end up a 'what if' story due to one another, at the end.

 

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, Laaloo said:

Yah keep clapping when dhoni comes to the crease and takes the momentum out of the innings. Keep clapping when Dhoni defends a full toss in the 47th over. 

 

We are haters because we realize the flaws within the team and want us to do better so we dont get embarassed. Great logic

 

You are haters because you see a guy who scores 40+ runs/innings at 90+ average and 80+ strike rate 'not living to requirement at #6' and want him dropped. Because solution to said problem, for most sane people, is promotion up the batting order. Where you want an accumulator. 

if every team had a guy scoring 40+ runs/innings at 80+ average and keeping wickets well, they'd find a way to fit him in. those who want to toss that away, are irrational towards the team and ergo, haters.

 

 

[maniac]

17 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Writing off ? I am clapping hard for the kid. Saying wow, kid has potential. Now kid needs to do more and no, he is not Dhoni level keeper -nowhere close. Kid needs to marinate more. Remember, Gilly came at 27/28 years old. I am not asking for that long, one of Pant & Kishan will cement as an atg if we play it right and they start becoming regulars by 24/25 years of age.

 

There is nothing called a fully formed product...you either have it or you don't...simple

 

it is not like a 30 yr old domestic verteran batsman with all his experience comes straight into an international team and uses all his domestic experience to start smacking Starc from ball 1 or negotiate Jimmy Anderson on a green mamba with ease.

 

when you debut you have some chinks for sure but the length of the learning curve is inversely proportional to the age and that is why it is important to have a fantastic prospect be it Pant or Siraj or Anyone to be tested at the highest level at the earliest.

 

Also my argument is not against Dhoni stepping down right away at this moment.I am against the fact that none of the future prospects have been tested yet to see what they have to offer.

 

Also you said as a professional Dhoni needs to be fit and play every game-well that's one way of looking at it but have you heard  terms like mentoring and passing the torch??? 

 

Likes of Kohli,Rohit,Vijay,Pujara and Rahane benefitted a great deal of being around SRT,Dravid and Laxman...they got the odd chance but when they retired they were atleast ready to a certain extent...Kohli is already a ATG,some of them are still trying to find a niche...you cannot guarantee that but it certainly helped.

Edited September 14, 2017 by maniac

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

 posting 80 s/r as some kind of an Olympic medal....it isn't...it is pathetic for a lower middle order batsman in LOIs...Sure once in a while a lower s/r when there is a need to play according to situations it is acceptable but 80 sr over a sustained period of time in that role is disgraceful.

 

You need to account for How many times have India scored 300+ in this time frame....

 

True....really high SRs are seen these days among batsmen 5 and 6 in ODIs.  And so many of these high SR batters have really high averages too.

 

SR of ODI batsmen in the last 2 years batting at No.5 and No.6

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
KM Jadhav (INDIA)	2016-2017	16	11	3	444	120	55.50	375	118.40	1	2	1	46	10
GJ Maxwell (AUS)	2016-2017	21	17	2	429	96	28.60	372	115.32	0	3	4	47	8
JC Buttler (ENG)	2015-2017	28	24	6	675	93	37.50	612	110.29	0	6	2	52	15
DA Miller (SA)	2015-2017	20	18	7	604	118*	54.90	555	108.82	2	2	1	42	21
AB de Villiers (SA)	2015-2017	9	9	4	318	101*	63.60	301	105.64	1	1	0	27	9
BA Stokes (ENG)	2016-2017	25	23	4	1010	102*	53.15	967	104.44	3	7	2	75	37
JDS Neesham (NZ)	2016-2017	15	14	2	319	71*	26.58	333	95.79	0	2	0	31	5
MR Marsh (AUS)	2016-2017	22	21	6	613	102*	40.86	643	95.33	1	4	2	57	15
DAS Gunaratne (SL)	2016-2017	9	9	2	321	114*	45.85	344	93.31	1	0	0	31	6
Sarfraz Ahmed (PAK)	2016-2017	17	15	5	636	105	63.60	683	93.11	1	4	0	54	1
TAM Siriwardana (SL)	2015-2017	13	10	0	281	66	28.10	302	93.04	0	2	0	20	6
Shoaib Malik (PAK)	2015-2017	19	18	4	528	101*	37.71	593	89.03	1	2	0	41	12
Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH)	2016-2017	15	14	0	489	114	34.92	551	88.74	1	4	0	47	5
TM Head (AUS)	2016-2017	16	14	2	441	71*	36.75	506	87.15	0	3	1	44	5
KA Pollard (WI)	2016-2016	10	10	2	247	67*	30.87	284	86.97	0	2	1	13	13
MS Dhoni (INDIA)	2015-2017	26	21	7	792	134	56.57	913	86.74	1	5	0	50	20
F Behardien (SA)	2015-2017	17	15	3	305	62	25.41	357	85.43	0	1	2	18	7
JP Duminy (SA)	2015-2017	25	22	4	472	73	26.22	599	78.79	0	1	0	32	4
JN Mohammed (WI)	2017-2017	9	9	1	359	91*	44.87	461	77.87	0	4	0	32	7
AD Mathews (SL)	2015-2017	23	20	4	774	95	48.37	1001	77.32	0	8	2	59	6
JL Carter (WI)	2015-2017	12	11	0	260	54	23.63	341	76.24	0	2	0	19	6
D Ramdin (WI)	2015-2016	11	11	0	280	91	25.45	402	69.65	0	1	0	15	6

 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=6;batting_positionmin1=5;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_strike_rate;qualmin1=200;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=14+Sep+2017;spanmin1=14+Sep+2015;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=25;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=batting

Edited September 14, 2017 by express bowling

[Laaloo]

18 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

You don't say. Parosees blowing up the team, playing musical chairs with captains, players re-retiring, players un-un-un-retiring...oh heavens, what tragedy !! Kayaamat!!!

 

And yeah, generational talent waits behind generational talent, when generational talent still putting up good performances. Pretty straightforward. Sometimes, you can be 'unlucky generational talent' to get completely railroaded by a previous Generational talent just having extraordinary long careers or just lucky enough to be just a bit better at the start. I suspect, one of Rishabh and Kishan will end up a 'what if' story due to one another, at the end.

 

No they will end up as what if story because of Dhoni and not one another. Dhoni as a captain even played himself during dead rubbers when the series was already on 4-0, so what do you expect now?

[Ankit_sharma03]

37 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes, yes long term. While we are calling Santa, lets get 2 atg allrounders as well- one preferably an Atg bat who spins and other an atg fastman who bats, while we are at it.

 

We have what we have and what we have, is no set player for #4. 

Saha may not make the LOI setup as long as Dhoni is there. that is fine. But if your precious Rishab goes home crying to mummy, we will run for help from Saha at that time, thats a guarantee. 

 

No reason to rush the kids when we have Saha to breech the gap. till Dhoni fades as a keeper and cannot score runs, he is our ace. uttapa, whatever are our 1-2 match stand-ins. We can call Saha if Dhoni is injured. the kids need to marinate more. 

Ur literally over estimating Saha . 

No reason to rush pant, when u get a talent like give him as many chances as possible. Ur talking as if people at his age hasnt done well in international cricket

Saha is not even a contendor , gulp it down . 

Ill rather call the choker dinesh karthik ahead of Saha 

[sandeep]

38 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes, yes long term. While we are calling Santa, lets get 2 atg allrounders as well- one preferably an Atg bat who spins and other an atg fastman who bats, while we are at it.

 

We have what we have and what we have, is no set player for #4. 

Saha may not make the LOI setup as long as Dhoni is there. that is fine. But if your precious Rishab goes home crying to mummy, we will run for help from Saha at that time, thats a guarantee. 

 

No reason to rush the kids when we have Saha to breech the gap. till Dhoni fades as a keeper and cannot score runs, he is our ace. uttapa, whatever are our 1-2 match stand-ins. We can call Saha if Dhoni is injured. the kids need to marinate more. 

If we are calling Santa, I want Hardik Pandya to get 25 games batting at #4, or at least no lower than #5.  So when it comes to WC 2019, he has accumulated max amount of experience.  And yes, I want a spin bowling allrounder to play at #6/7 from this point forward.    That to me is more important than either winning against SL, or giving Dhoni maximum opportunities to resurrect his career.   At this point in time, what's best for MS Dhoni is no longer what's best for Team India.  And from this point forward, he gets a much shorter rope than any of the new younger guys.   

 

That's what a well managed professional unit would do.   Not worship on the altar of seniority.   And this is not just limited to Dhoni.  

[Muloghonto]

11 minutes ago, maniac said:

There is nothing called a fully formed product...you either have it or you don't...simple

 

it is not like a 30 yr old domestic verteran batsman with all his experience comes straight into an international team and uses all his domestic experience to start smacking Starc from ball 1 or negotiate Jimmy Anderson on a green mamba with ease.

 

when you debut you have some chinks for sure but the length of the learning curve is inversely proportional to the age and that is why it is important to have a fantastic prospect be it Pant or Siraj or Anyone to be tested at the highest level at the earliest.

 

Also my argument is not against Dhoni stepping down right away at this moment.I am against the fact that none of the future prospects have been tested yet to see what they have to offer.

 

Also you said as a professional Dhoni needs to be fit and play every game-well that's one way of looking at it but have you heard  terms like mentoring and passing the torch??? 

 

Likes of Kohli,Rohit,Vijay,Pujara and Rahane benefitted a great deal of being around SRT,Dravid and Laxman...they got the odd chance but when they retired they were atleast ready to a certain extent...Kohli is already a ATG,some of them are still trying to find a niche...you cannot guarantee that but it certainly helped.

there is a difference between marination and 'not good enough to eat, coz it sucks'. 

By 30, most players have been looked over, most likely because they are not world-class,period. Occasionally you will have the Lehmanns and stuff of the game but thats why 30 year olds usually don't light up the scene.

Last i checked, 22-24 is a perfect age for players to show up, light up.

 

No it is not important to test at the highest level just coz you may be good. How many 1st round draft picks in NA sports make it to the team straight-up ? Many go to juniors for 1-2 years before being introduced. that is the way with pro-sports. 

 

there is no need to pass the torch yet. Kids are not ready. Kids need 1-2 years. they can learn from being in the training camps and water bottle boys, yes.