Reopening the debate on best chasers in ODIs

[Trichromatic]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/20780821/reopening-debate-best-chasers-odis

 

 

Quote

Virat Kohli's extraordinary exploits in ODI chases has made this one of the hot topics going around today. Quite justifiably, he is in the mix when discussing the best in this business: he averages 67.10 in chases, which is nearly ten more than the next best (with a 1000-run cut-off), and has 19 centuries, which is already better than Sachin Tendulkar's 17 in less than half as many innings. And all this at a strike rate of nearly 94.

However, it is also true that Kohli has racked up all these numbers in an era where batsmen are prolific, and in a team that has other top batsmen as well. Kartikeya Date eloquently argued that Kohli isn't as far ahead of his peers as Richards and Tendulkar were compared to theirs, and then also did an interesting piece on Kohli v Tendulkar in chases, which suggested that the real difference in numbers during their eras owed to the support each received from the other batsmen in the side: Tendulkar, especially during his best years, received far less support in chases than Kohli has.

The methodology Date used looked at runs scored in 300 balls by the player in chases, compared to runs scored by his fellow batsmen in the same number of deliveries. In calculating the player runs in 300 balls, though, Date looked largely at strike rates, extrapolating the same into a 300-ball score, with the rider that the batsman faced at least 30 balls per dismissal. (In cases where the balls-per-dismissal figure was lower, the batsman's runs per dismissal was multiplied by 10 to arrive at a 300-ball score.) According to this method, Kohli's 300-ball total came to 280, compared to Tendulkar's 263.

The method rewards batsmen with higher strike rates, but it ignores the value of balls faced per dismissal, beyond the minimum cut-off of 30. Given that Kohli's balls per dismissal was 68.2 and Tendulkar's 45.6, it means Kohli only gets out 4.4 times in 300 balls, compared to Tendulkar's 6.6 times. Comparing the two is like comparing 4.4 completed innings by Kohli, to 6.6 completed innings by Tendulkar.

Here is an alternative method to compare performances in run chases. The three factors considered here are:

• The runs-scored factor: calculated by dividing the runs scored by the batsman by the runs scored by his team-mates, in chases

• The strike-rate factor: calculated by dividing the batsman's strike rate by that of his team-mates in chases

• The runs-per-innings factor: calculated by dividing the runs scored per innings by the batsman by the runs scored per innings by his team mates

All these numbers are for batsmen who have scored 2000-plus runs in chases in ODIs against the eight oldest Test teams, and in chases where the target is 150 or more (to exclude easy chases of low targets where one player makes the bulk of the runs). Also, the team numbers exclude the innings in which the batsman didn't bat.

Each of these factors measures a key aspect that defines the batsman's proficiency in a chase. The percentage of runs scored and strike rate are fairly intuitively understood, while runs per innings illustrates how prolific a batsman is compared to his peers.

Imagine this scenario: a batsman scores 125 in a chase of 250 and the team wins with an over to spare, but in one case the team loses only two wickets getting there, while in the other it loses nine. The runs per innings will incorporate the fact that, in the second case, the batsman performed way better than his team-mates. Since each of these factors is a ratio, multiplying the three gives a figure that is the batsman's chase index.

 

[express bowling]

Here is the whole career list from the same article, without selecting specific favorable periods of a player's career

 

 

 

Top Batsmen In Run-Chases In ODIs

Batsman	Runs	Run fac	SR	SR fac	Runs/inn	RPI fac	Chase index
Virat Kohli	4447	0.28	94.56	1.12	49.97	2.03	0.65
Viv Richards	2655	0.25	86.91	1.38	36.37	1.69	0.58
Gordon Greenidge	2597	0.30	65.04	0.94	43.28	1.83	0.52
AB de Villiers	3522	0.25	95.73	1.16	42.95	1.81	0.52
Saeed Anwar	2992	0.24	81.13	1.14	36.94	1.82	0.49
Brian Lara	4631	0.23	77.62	1.11	36.18	1.85	0.48
Tendulkar (career)	6928	0.22	87.89	1.19	37.25	1.72	0.46
Adam Gilchrist	3570	0.22	98.67	1.32	37.19	1.55	0.46
Javed Miandad	2831	0.24	67.09	1.00	35.39	1.86	0.44

 

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/20780821/reopening-debate-best-chasers-odis

Edited September 23, 2017 by express bowling

[express bowling]

Where is the " team win " factor in these calculations  ?

[velu]

@Trichromatic if we  consider the pak period for sachin , we should do that for viv as well .. viv averaged 53 till 1987 and it dropped to 47 in the last 5 years 

[Trichromatic]

8 minutes ago, velu said:

@Trichromatic if we  consider the pak period for sachin , we should do that for viv as well .. viv averaged 53 till 1987 and it dropped to 47 in the last 5 years 

Yes, that can also be compared. This just one of multiple ways of comparing. It's like saying that for 10 years period, SRT was as good as Kohli and then providing some stats to support that theory. Artcile acknowledges that SRT wasn't as good in later half of SRT's career.

[Trichromatic]

25 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Where is the " team win " factor in these calculations  ?

Yes, there should be some reward for staying not out till end and ensuring that team won the match whereas there shouldn't be a penalty if lower order consistently fails to secure an easy win from formidable situation in one case and does it easily in other case. 

[Nonbeliever]

13 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Yes, there should be some reward for staying not out till end and ensuring that team won the match whereas there shouldn't be a penalty if lower order consistently fails to secure an easy win from formidable situation in one case and does it easily in other case. 

Even the top order was as bad as lower order.  Nobody was able to give him support in partnerships which is not the case today.  He had to take too many risks to compensate for others mediocarity. Later it was not the case when shehwag and yuvi took the burden of striking fast.

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Nonbeliever

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Nonbeliever said:

Even the top order was as bad as lower order.  Nobody was able to give him support in partnerships which is not the case today.  He had to take too many risks to compensate for others mediocarity. Later it was not the case when shehwag and yuvi took the burden of striking fast.

 

Tendulkar started doing well in ODIs from 94. Ganguly and David debuted in 96. SO, he did have Dravid, Ganguly and Azhar in that period before Viru and Sehwag.

[Kerberos]

2 hours ago, velu said:

@Trichromatic if we  consider the pak period for sachin , we should do that for viv as well .. viv averaged 53 till 1987 and it dropped to 47 in the last 5 years 

Why? Cannot digest Sachin's success? If we divide Sachin's career in two halves he was awesome in first half and good in second half.

[velu]

4 minutes ago, Kerberos said:

Why? Cannot digest Sachin's success? If we divide Sachin's career in two halves he was awesome in first half and good in second half.

 

 

cant digest crap ..

anywya if you dont be an einstein to know that when you compare the best of your favorite player ( aka sachin ) , you shld compare it with the best part of the other player as well ( aka viv )..

 

first half of sachin cant even hold a candle to the first half of viv richards

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by velu

[Gollum]

The myth that Kohli is the greatest chaser of all time was shattered in the WC SF 2015. Any last remaining hope of his so called chasing prowess got the final nail in the coffin in the 2017 CT finals. 2 miserable failures against quality bowling units on featherbeds just because he was too chicken to handle the heat. Smith's 2 chases in the QF and F of 2015 WC are worth more than 15 of Kohli's useless 100s on pattas in meaningless JAMODIs. SRT was relatively poor in chasing but he has delivered in high pressure chasing matches like 1996 dubious SF(I don't think that was a clean match), 2003 Centurion, 2011 QF etc (not counting his qualitatively superior 100s in tri series' and bilaterals). Viv was from another planet. This embarrassing comparison of VK with titans like SRT, Viv must stop on ICF. Unless he does something remarkable in a big match chasing a huge total, he is just another 'David Beckham of cricket'.. more hype than substance. Smith is like Zidane/Fat Ronaldo while Viv and SRT are Pele and Maradona of ODI cricket. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Gollum

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, Nonbeliever said:

Even the top order was as bad as lower order.  Nobody was able to give him support in partnerships which is not the case today.  He had to take too many risks to compensate for others mediocarity. Later it was not the case when shehwag and yuvi took the burden of striking fast.

 

From 96 he had ganguly, dravid 

Azhar was there always 

Jadeja wasnt bad either, watever i saw of him the guy was more then a decent player . 

Robin singh was no sir jadeja either 

From 2000 yuvi and sehwag

From 2005 - dhoni and after that also sachin had a career of 7-8 yrs 

 

Agar aise hi nikalana hai to kohli ka bhi nikalte hai

Post 2011, how many did he have

Dhoni - he wasnt the same dasher once he became captain

Yuvi- went out post 2011

raina- heavily unreliable

GAmbhr and sehwag didnt last

Rohit dhawan had huge switch on n offfs 

Jadeja 

 

Who else?????

Edited September 23, 2017 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

For me it ll be kohli, the guy finishes games 

The reason i consider dhoni 183 one of the top most innings, coz he did it alone pretty much and finished the game by himself 

[Nonbeliever]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Tendulkar started doing well in ODIs from 94. Ganguly and David debuted in 96. SO, he did have Dravid, Ganguly and Azhar in that period before Viru and Sehwag.

Azhar, mongia jadeja. .U all now what was the gang doing.  Don't want to discuss here.  Dravid was not a great odi bat.  Only Ganguly was helping him post 1998 but he was never the one who took.the best bowlers on. The problem was at that time the burden of scoring fast was only on Sachin. Only shehwag and yuvraj had that capability to set the fear in opposition.

[Laaloo]

[jusarrived]

Did I see Tendulkars name discussing the best chasers ? lol 

[jusarrived]

2 hours ago, Gollum said:

The myth that Kohli is the greatest chaser of all time was shattered in the WC SF 2015. Any last remaining hope of his so called chasing prowess got the final nail in the coffin in the 2017 CT finals. 2 miserable failures against quality bowling units on featherbeds just because he was too chicken to handle the heat. Smith's 2 chases in the QF and F of 2015 WC are worth more than 15 of Kohli's useless 100s on pattas in meaningless JAMODIs. SRT was relatively poor in chasing but he has delivered in high pressure chasing matches like 1996 dubious SF(I don't think that was a clean match), 2003 Centurion, 2011 QF etc (not counting his qualitatively superior 100s in tri series' and bilaterals). Viv was from another planet. This embarrassing comparison of VK with titans like SRT, Viv must stop on ICF. Unless he does something remarkable in a big match chasing a huge total, he is just another 'David Beckham of cricket'.. more hype than substance. Smith is like Zidane/Fat Ronaldo while Viv and SRT are Pele and Maradona of ODI cricket. 

We won the last CT cos of Virats knock , yes it was curtailed but he made the difference . 

if you are going to cherry pick and talk only about WC's , how about talk about finals ... grand total of 22 runs in 2 finals , both chasing for Tendulkar ..if not for GG , VK and Dhoni he would have ended his 2 decade looong career with his team having achived nothing in the period .

 

 

 

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, jusarrived said:

We won the last CT cos of Virats knock , yes it was curtailed but he made the difference . 

if you are going to cherry pick and talk only about WC's , how about talk about finals ... grand total of 22 runs in 2 finals , both chasing for Tendulkar ..if not for GG , VK and Dhoni he would have ended his 2 decade looong career with his team having achived nothing in the period .

 

 

 

And his rina in t20 wc last time. He single handedly ke or India in the cup.

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 hours ago, Nonbeliever said:

Azhar, mongia jadeja. .U all now what was the gang doing.  Don't want to discuss here.  Dravid was not a great odi bat.  Only Ganguly was helping him post 1998 but he was never the one who took.the best bowlers on. The problem was at that time the burden of scoring fast was only on Sachin. Only shehwag and yuvraj had that capability to set the fear in opposition.

Azhar mongia jadeja didnt fix everygame. Nor it was that they didnt perform in any game. They wudnt have survived if they wud have under perfomed whole career

For his time dravid for not a bad ODi player , infact done well in chases . Even kohli has played with a team which has given rahane almost 80 odi and raydu 30+ games 

 

Ganguly use to do well against SA, Pak ........they had terrific bowlers

 

We say that coz their was huge diff between sachin n others ,that doesnt mean others were bad 

[Vk1]

I would like to look it differently, pick the guy who is head and shoulders above the best of the times, Bradman for tests  and King Viv for odis. It's mind boggling to know that Viv had a strikerate of 90s  and a very high average of 47.