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Trichromatic

Cheteswar Pujara's overseas form

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He has been unstoppable in Asia and that seems to suggest that he has been in top form, but his county records are:

 

Matches: 8

Inn: 12

Runs: 333

HS: 112

Avg: 27.75

100s: 1

50s: 1

 

Is he just not made for overseas matches? Problem is this comes right in middle of his top form where he his FC average in India has been 82 with over 2000 runs in 17 matches and 77 in 3 tests in Sri Lanka. Seems like he can score runs for fun on any type of pitch in subcontinent, but can't get going even at FC level away.

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Should be dumped for the benefit of the team for ever.Baring SAF he has been a failure in  AUS,ENG & NZL.This after playing 50+ tests.If his home record is the justification for his inclusion, then  another player  with slightly lesser home record but with far better  away record  is the better option because the allrounders in the team would cover for his extra performance in home conditions.As if there are no replacements in domestic.!!!!!!!!  Even in 2nd division he is poor...that says a lot.

Edited by rtmohanlal

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52 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Should be dumped for the benefit of the team for ever.Baring SAF he has been a failure in  AUS,ENG & NZL.This after playing 50+ tests.If his home record is the justification for his inclusion, then  another player  with slightly lesser home record but with far better  away record  is the better option because the allrounders in the team would cover for his extra performance in home conditions.As if there are no replacements in domestic.!!!!!!!!  Even in 2nd division he is poor...that says a lot.

Pujara at home/Asia has no peers among current batsmen. I have lost count of how many times he saved India at home/Asia.

 

We would have lost the 2017 test series against Aus if not for his special in Bangalore 2nd innings. Lost the 2015 away series against SL if not for his 145* in decider. Lost the Delhi 2013 test against Aus if not for his 80 odd at 80 SR.

 

This is just a small sample. There are a lot more games too.

 

Outside Asia we can take a call based on his performance and drop him if he doesn't score. That's fair. But in Asia, Pujara is one of the greatest ever bats both in terms of average and in terms of impact.

Edited by sensible-indian

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I honestly don't understand how Pujara averaged so low in County this time.

 

Ashwin averaged 42 in his stint without breaking a sweat. Could have averaged 60+ (needed like some 90 runs odd) if he didn't get out to innocuous deliveries multiple times.

 

Is it because Pujara played in different pitches to the ones Ash played (who played 3 out of 4 games in New Roads)?

 

A guy who scored 145* knock on a green seamer, should be able to play county second division. Its not like those pitches were bouncy as hell or anything.

Edited by sensible-indian

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23 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I honestly don't understand how Pujara averaged so low in County this time.

 

Ashwin averaged 42 in his stint without breaking a sweat. Could have averaged 60+ (needed like some 90 runs odd) if he didn't get out to innocuous deliveries multiple times.

 

Is it because Pujara played in different pitches to the ones Ash played (who played 3 out of 4 games in New Roads)?

 

A guy who scored 145* knock on a green seamer, should be able to play county second division. Its not like those pitches were bouncy as hell or anything.

Look at the scorecards of matches played by Pujara

 

http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Scorecards/1013/1013768.html

 

3 innings, 5 100s scores of 560 and 470 in first 2 innings. Probably there was swing on offer early on and top order crumbled in reply to huge first inning score, but after that everyone scored.

 

http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Scorecards/1013/1013766.html

 

This seems to difficult one with Rory taking 13 wickets in match and dismissing him on both ocassions. 

 

http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Scorecards/1013/1013755.html

This again looks like slightly difficult condition, but some batsmen managed to score runs. 

 

http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Scorecards/1013/1013750.html

This can be considered normal with his team scoring 213 and 344.

 

So he did bat in difficult conditions in 2 matches, 1 in normal for a test batsman and 1 on road, but thing is he was outbatted by others by fair margin. 

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39 minutes ago, OpeningBatsman said:

Hopefully, won't end up like Thilan Samaraweera.

Even Samaraweera scored 2 outstanding 100s in SA against that ATG team with peak Steyn in 2011-12. If Che can have one such series overseas in the next 2 years (preferably in SA OR Eng) he is worth backing.

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4 hours ago, OpeningBatsman said:

Hopefully, won't end up like Thilan Samaraweera.

I remember earlier people used to call him FTB and ridicule his batting performance. But now it seems that SL will take 3-4 Samarweeras in their team at first opportunities.

 

Such players are underrated especially if you're playing alongside ATG and great players. In the end they complete the team.

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28 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

I remember earlier people used to call him FTB and ridicule his batting performance. But now it seems that SL will take 3-4 Samarweeras in their team at first opportunities.

 

Such players are underrated especially if you're playing alongside ATG and great players. In the end they complete the team.

Agree. These people are taking home runs for granted. One two batting failures against Aussies and these guys were all jumping around saying they cannot score even at home.

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He has a poor average overseas, but he does play a lot of balls when he bats. 

 

Career summary
GroupingAscending Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
                               
in Australia 2014-2014 3 6 0 201 73 33.50 471 42.67 0 1 0 26 0 view innings
in England 2014-2014 5 10 0 222 55 22.20 510 43.52 0 1 1 32 0 view innings
in India 2010-2017 30 50 6 2797 206* 63.56 5537 50.51 9 12 1 334 7 view innings
in New Zealand 2014-2014 2 4 0 60 23 15.00 183 32.78 0 0 0 6 1 view innings
in South Africa 2010-2013 4 7 0 311 153 44.42 715 43.49 1 1 0 40 0 view innings
in Sri Lanka 2015-2017 4 6 1 454 153 90.80 856 53.03 3 0 1 40 1 view innings
in West Indies 2016-2016 3 2 0 62 46 31.00 226 27.43 0 0 0 4 0

 

Average balls faced in each country:

Aus: 79

Eng: 51

NZ: 46 

SA:  102

 

By contrast Kohli averages only 29 balls faced in England...

I think this implies that although he doesn't score, he isn't being blown away by the bowling. It seems to me that he just doesn't have the scoring shots to rotate strike, so he gets bogged down at one end and the bowlers eventually work him out because of that. 

 

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Seems like he has done pretty good in South Africa. He has had a big problem in England. 10 innings may not be that much but for overseas, it's a lot. He needs to improve on that. NZ and Aus are flat pitches. I am backing him to improve those average there. Not sure about England though.

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8 hours ago, Gollum said:

Even Samaraweera scored 2 outstanding 100s in SA against that ATG team with peak Steyn in 2011-12. If Che can have one such series overseas in the next 2 years (preferably in SA OR Eng) he is worth backing.

 

5 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

I remember earlier people used to call him FTB and ridicule his batting performance. But now it seems that SL will take 3-4 Samarweeras in their team at first opportunities.

 

Such players are underrated especially if you're playing alongside ATG and great players. In the end they complete the team.

I think Che will perform well in SA n Aus as long as ball is not swinging around.. In ENG n NZ though, I am not so sure.. hoping for the best. :cheer:

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the main point is  not Pujara's performance. It is as to what the cricket management is doing to counter the below par performance of such main players.For instance promising players like Shreyas Iyer, Karun Nair  etc etc would have been tested  in

non consequential matches when ever there have been oppertunities .For instance both Iyer and Nair could have been tested    once the series were already  deceided in NZL, ENG  home tests & WI ,SL abroad tests. But unfortunately that has not been happening.

Edited by rtmohanlal

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I think Che will perform well in SA n Aus as long as ball is not swinging around.. In ENG n NZ though, I am not so sure.. hoping for the best. :cheer:
Pujara issue is just not swing.

He also struggles against Bounce Lyon generated last time.So Australia won't be easy.

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Thats a very poor return for an international batsman who was in top form before this. We have known that he us pretty poor outside Asia. We should give him one more away tour before we decide to continue with him overseas or not.

 

Would like to see us separating home teams from away teams. Players like Pujara are Must-Haves in home matches, but struggle mightily outside Asia. Just like we have separate Test vs ODI team, we should start considering whether a batsman should play only SC matches or non SC matches or both. 

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Adding on to what I mentioned on separating home vs away teams, we already change bowling combinations based on conditions. Playing Bhuv only in seaming conditions, spinner/pace bowler mix based on pitch, etc. 

 

So the concept is used, but is applied only to bowlers so far. It needs to be extended to batsmen too. 

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20 minutes ago, Texan said:

Not exactly right. He played only a few matches, got 1unbeaten hundred and failed in other innings. 

If we remove that one unbeaten innings, his average is < 30 (IIRC). That unbeaten 100+ is also scored in a low pressure situation, i.e. when the team is already doing very well and is in good lead over the opposition. 

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57 minutes ago, Texan said:

Adding on to what I mentioned on separating home vs away teams, we already change bowling combinations based on conditions. Playing Bhuv only in seaming conditions, spinner/pace bowler mix based on pitch, etc. 

 

So the concept is used, but is applied only to bowlers so far. It needs to be extended to batsmen too. 

If Pujara isn't able to get going after few test matches, it is something that should be looked into. We have long overseas tours. 

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10 hours ago, Lannister said:

Its tough to expect anything from them if their debut match is in overseas conditions. 

Rahane practically made his debut in successive away tours and did spectacularly well after a nightmarish first Test in India. We have players in the wings who have gone on A tours to different countries also. 

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1 hour ago, Texan said:

Rahane practically made his debut in successive away tours and did spectacularly well after a nightmarish first Test in India. We have players in the wings who have gone on A tours to different countries also. 

Rahane is a different case in Test Cricket as he's a champion bat. Do we even have someone matching his skillsets? I'd be more than happy if we get one more player like him in our batting unit. 

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16 hours ago, Vijy said:

It's very doubtful if he can do well in Eng, NZ and SA. Oz may be easier but he doesn't play Lyon well abroad.

Why is SA doubtful,  he did well there last time and SA team was better then.  Agree about England and maybe NZ.  I believe he will be fine in Australia because even if he has some weakness against Lyon (not sure if what you are alluding to is technical or some other aspect that you may have noticed)  he is capable of getting through a bad spell and then capitalise. 

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Lol at thos doubting Pujara and his credential.

On 9/29/2017 at 4:16 PM, Tibarn said:

He has a poor average overseas, but he does play a lot of balls when he bats. 

 

Career summary
GroupingAscending Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
                               
in Australia 2014-2014 3 6 0 201 73 33.50 471 42.67 0 1 0 26 0 view innings
in England 2014-2014 5 10 0 222 55 22.20 510 43.52 0 1 1 32 0 view innings
in India 2010-2017 30 50 6 2797 206* 63.56 5537 50.51 9 12 1 334 7 view innings
in New Zealand 2014-2014 2 4 0 60 23 15.00 183 32.78 0 0 0 6 1 view innings
in South Africa 2010-2013 4 7 0 311 153 44.42 715 43.49 1 1 0 40 0 view innings
in Sri Lanka 2015-2017 4 6 1 454 153 90.80 856 53.03 3 0 1 40 1 view innings
in West Indies 2016-2016 3 2 0 62 46 31.00 226 27.43 0 0 0 4 0

 

Average balls faced in each country:

Aus: 79

Eng: 51

NZ: 46 

SA:  102

 

By contrast Kohli averages only 29 balls faced in England...

I think this implies that although he doesn't score, he isn't being blown away by the bowling. It seems to me that he just doesn't have the scoring shots to rotate strike, so he gets bogged down at one end and the bowlers eventually work him out because of that. 

 

I think people have short memory. The series which probably is responsible for Pujara as a weaklink, People need to check scorecard too. Allmost everytime he walked in there was a carnage in progression. Every game our openers had failed to see off new ball.

 

Quote

Match 1

=============

India batted well

41.1 excitement! There is indeed an invisible leopard on the field now! No one saw it but Pujara probably. He cuts this innocuous short and wide one straight to Stokes at point, who fumbles it the first time before diving to his left to catch the ricochet off his chest. Pujara can't believe what he has done. Lead is 101 140/3

Pujara 38


31.2 whoa!! That is an awesome catch and an awesome trap! Ian Bell you beauty, he takes a screamer at silly mid-on, diving full length to his right to pluck a one-hander! It held on to the wicket a bit and Pujara pushed it in the air tentatively. Super strike just after lunch. 106/2

Pujara 55

==============

Match 2 India batted decent

==========

41.5 a beauty! This one nips back again and there's no pad in the way this time. On a full length, Pujara getting forward again, the ball jags off the seam and zips between the inside edge into middle stump. Delight for Stokes. 113/4

43.3 Plunkett has got the big one, he bowls one back of a length and outside off, Pujara reaches out to a ball he perhaps could have left alone, slight movement away, nicks through to the keeper, like in the first innings Pujara spends plenty of time in the middle without going on to make a big score, very unlike him 118/2


(Rest bats fall like pins)

 

==========

Match 3 India Crumbled

==========


23.2 dug in, Pujara tries to sway back... but can't get his hands out of the way! He's tickled it through to Buttler! Another neither-nor score for Che Pujara, the revolution will not happen today... The ball came back at him off the pitch as he took evasive action, brushed the gloves and straight into Buttler's for the first time in Test cricket 56/2
12.2 Mooeeeeeen! he is all over India in this Test. Terrific catch at first slip by Jordan, that came at him quite quickly and he had to snap a low catch to his right. Drew Pujara forward but there wasn't as much turn as he expected. Genuine outside edge and England offer a tutorial for India's slip fielders. Stay low, stay mobile and pull off blinders 29/2

==========

Match 4 India Crumbled

==========

5.1 drawn into playing, superb take by Jordan diving to his right - India are four down and still in single figures! Broad has his second, thanks to a blinder from Jordan, Pujara might have though he managed to keep the edge down but he's ruefully heading off, joining the procession 8/4


21.1 given him. full length, bit of offspin, big stride from Pujara, who's disappointed as he walks off. It looked pretty straight, but he did get a big stride in. Had to be some doubt, but could well be clipping. Ball definitely turned. If only India could have got a decent first-innings score. As I thought, with such a big stride, ball turning, replays show the ball missing the leg stump and going over 53/3

==========

Match 5 India Crumbled

==========


5.6 his misery ends and it was quite tough to watch really. The stumps are rattled, but they are checking on the no-ball. Almost half his boot is behind the mark. Pujara is absolutely shocked. The bat was slow in coming down, there was enough gap between it and the pad to sneak through. Clips the top flap, then his arm and timber! 10/2

12.5 and another! One closer to Botham. That. Was. A. Ripper. He's nervous about the one coming in, this one holds its line outside off, Pujara trying to get forward but can only get a thin edge to the keeper. 30/3

 

So I am going t

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23 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

He is trying. But something is not working out for him. Any idea about what kind of balls he frequently gets out to? OVerseas i mean. it cannot be a coincidence.

Against England, He was unsure about his off stump i.e. how much the ball will swing/moove in.

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He has now had at least two spells in the County Game, how many other current Indian batsmen can say that? He is also a world beater in Home Conditions. Therefore on the balance of probability, he should be backed for another round of overseas tours. 

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4 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

He has now had at least two spells in the County Game, how many other current Indian batsmen can say that? He is also a world beater in Home Conditions. Therefore on the balance of probability, he should be backed for another round of overseas tours. 

He is our wall in testing condition. He fails, everyone fails. the day our openers start surviving first 20 overs, Pujara will become beast in English conditions too

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On 10/2/2017 at 5:54 AM, speedster said:

Why is SA doubtful,  he did well there last time and SA team was better then.  Agree about England and maybe NZ.  I believe he will be fine in Australia because even if he has some weakness against Lyon (not sure if what you are alluding to is technical or some other aspect that you may have noticed)  he is capable of getting through a bad spell and then capitalise. 

I'm doubtful about SA because I expect tracks to be spicier this time (revenge for them after previous series on spin tracks).

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4 hours ago, Vijy said:

I'm doubtful about SA because I expect tracks to be spicier this time (revenge for them after previous series on spin tracks).

That will work for us as Shami, Bhuvi, Umesh can out owl the Saffers, even Pandya, we have a recent history of beating good teams on a spicy deck.

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1 minute ago, MCcricket said:

That will work for us as Shami, Bhuvi, Umesh can out owl the Saffers, even Pandya, we have a recent history of beating good teams on a spicy deck.

we had a good batting lineup for some of them. here's hoping it will continue... esp HTB Pujara.

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On 10/2/2017 at 6:47 AM, mishra said:

Lol at thos doubting Pujara and his credential.

I think people have short memory. The series which probably is responsible for Pujara as a weaklink, People need to check scorecard too. Allmost everytime he walked in there was a carnage in progression. Every game our openers had failed to see off new ball.

 

 

So I am going t

Even a 30 average, as he has in Australia, isn't bad, per se.

 

This is just me, but I define a 30-ish average as an "average" average. 40 is good, 50 is excellent, anything below 30 is bad. 

 

Thus I currently only consider Pujara a failure in NZ and England. He was average in Australia. 

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