The no.4 conundrum

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

Pandya looks somewhat iffy against fast bowling. He smashes the spinners but seems to get a little bogged down when the pacers are there. 

it was intentional form him to not take risk against pacers.  He will only get better as he plays genuine pacers more. Very few Indian batsmen can just come to international cricket and hit genuine fast bowlers.  They all take time to get accustomed. They barely face high class fast bowling in domestic cricket.

Edited September 29, 2017 by rkt.india

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

yes. need someone else at 6. krunal might be the answer

 

1. Dhawan -- Quick starter, high average, good SR

2. Rohit -- High average, can hit big 6s

3. Kohli -- High average, good SR,  dependable, test-quality batsman 

4. Rahul -- Can hit big 6s,  test-quality batsman 

5. Hardik -- Can hit big 6s,  high SR batter,  good average, pacer

6. Dhoni --  Stabilizes team during collapse, high average, slow batter     /  Pant -- Can hit big 6s, high SR batter

7. Krunal -- Potentially .... can hit big 6s, high SR batter, spinner

 

covers all the bases

Edited September 29, 2017 by express bowling

[prudent_kreeda]

5 hours ago, express bowling said:

KL Rahul

 

He can hit the big sixes with ease ..... we don't have anyone other than Pandya who can do that in the middle-order ..... and this ability is needed in high scoring matches.

 

He can play and hit genuine pacers.

 

He can play spinners after getting set

 

His potential ceiling is higher than the other options.

 

Just needs to improve his strike rotation.

 

 

   When i visualize the future scenario these are some of the things that will happen : 

    1. Every team will have atleast 1  wrist spinner in their attack.

    2. Most teams will have 2 spinners in their attack ( Atleast 15 overs would be bowled spinners).

    3. Most teams will try to avoid spinners against Pandya unless the spinner is quite good & they will bring in their pace bowlers         when he is in.     

    Now Pandya should be one of the guys who will come at 4 or 5 . 

    When 2nd wicket falls , majority of spin quota is yet to be used , Pandya should be in , in other cases Pandya should come in at        5.

    Since its a given that when Pandya is in , Opposition will bring pacemen , the other batter should be one who has the ability to play well  against pacers and can hit boundaries. 

    THIS MUST BE THE CONSIDERATION OF THINK TANK when selecting your no.4 . As we have seen Pandya is not able to hit boundaries in the way he hits spinners hence very crucial , the other batter is one who can take boundaries of pacers.

With that  in mind i can think only 3 guys as of now -  KL , Pandey , Iyer in that order of preference.

KL should be the first choice due to: -   

Plays pacers very well since he is an opener. Equally good against spinners . Cannot be tied down easily as he can use both paddle sweep as well reverse sweep + Big hits down the ground and over the infield. 

Pandya - looks better than Kedar against pace and also less risky . Can play spin too.

Jadhav -  Age, Fielding , more risky approach, suspect against good pace attack -  so may not be a good option for long term. But can be good against spin.

Iyer -  Hammers spinners  , may not be very good against pacers as of now but should be on the radar. I think we should invest on him.

If we analyse the chances of improvement is very high for KL & Iyer  while Kedar and Pandey  might have reached their peak in terms of improvement . 

 

Problem of selecting KL, IYER & Pandey is  that none of these 3 bowl. That really upsets team balance . If any of these 3 can bowl 3-4 overs  that could be terrific.

I am not considering Pant at this position. I am thinking of opening slot or no.6 for him.

 

[prudent_kreeda]

4 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

   When i visualize the future scenario these are some of the things that will happen : 

    1. Every team will have atleast 1  wrist spinner in their attack.

    2. Most teams will have 2 spinners in their attack ( Atleast 15 overs would be bowled spinners).

    3. Most teams will try to avoid spinners against Pandya unless the spinner is quite good & they will bring in their pace bowlers         when he is in.     

    Now Pandya should be one of the guys who will come at 4 or 5 . 

    When 2nd wicket falls , majority of spin quota is yet to be used , Pandya should be in , in other cases Pandya should come in at        5.

    Since its a given that when Pandya is in , Opposition will bring pacemen , the other batter should be one who has the ability to play well  against pacers and can hit boundaries. 

    THIS MUST BE THE CONSIDERATION OF THINK TANK when selecting your no.4 . As we have seen Pandya is not able to hit boundaries in the way he hits spinners hence very crucial , the other batter is one who can take boundaries of pacers.

With that  in mind i can think only 3 guys as of now -  KL , Pandey , Iyer in that order of preference.

KL should be the first choice due to: -   

Plays pacers very well since he is an opener. Equally good against spinners . Cannot be tied down easily as he can use both paddle sweep as well reverse sweep + Big hits down the ground and over the infield. 

Pandya - looks better than Kedar against pace and also less risky . Can play spin too.

Jadhav -  Age, Fielding , more risky approach, suspect against good pace attack -  so may not be a good option for long term. But can be good against spin.

Iyer -  Hammers spinners  , may not be very good against pacers as of now but should be on the radar. I think we should invest on him.

If we analyse the chances of improvement is very high for KL & Iyer  while Kedar and Pandey  might have reached their peak in terms of improvement . 

 

Problem of selecting KL, IYER & Pandey is  that none of these 3 bowl. That really upsets team balance . If any of these 3 can bowl 3-4 overs  that could be terrific.

I am not considering Pant at this position. I am thinking of opening slot or no.6 for him.

 

    And i am one of the voteries for KL in that 29.17%

[prudent_kreeda]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

1. Dhawan -- Quick starter, high average, good SR

2. Rohit -- High average, can hit big 6s

3. Kohli -- High average, good SR,  dependable, test-quality batsman 

4. Rahul -- Can hit big 6s,  test-quality batsman 

5. Hardik -- Can hit big 6s,  high SR batter,  good average, pacer

6. Dhoni --  Stabilizes team during collapse, high average, slow batter     /  Pant -- Can hit big 6s, high SR batter

7. Krunal -- Potentially, can hit big 6s, high SR batter, spinner

 

covers all the bases

   Expressji ,   tweaking it a bit 

   6.  Pant .

   7.  Krunal / W Sundar  -   Do not count out this Kid .

   But i have lowered my expectation . This will happen post WC 19  

 

 

 

[Brainfade]

6 hours ago, express bowling said:

KL Rahul

 

He can hit the big sixes with ease ..... we don't have anyone other than Pandya who can do that in the middle-order ..... and this ability is needed in high scoring matches.

 

He can play and hit genuine pacers.

 

He can play spinners after getting set

 

His potential ceiling is higher than the other options.

 

Just needs to improve his strike rotation.

 

 

... if he can stay on the field.  With him, it is a very important consideration.

[Pollack]

Dhoni at no.4 or 5 is terrible suggestion.

Let's analyse strengths nd weaknesses of dhoni.

Strengths:

1)Hangs around. Takes a few singles and few boundaries with lots of dots.

2)Difficult to get him out when he plays tuk tuk.

3)Ability to absorb pressure.

4) Very calculative.

 

Weaknesses:

 Dot balls. Strike Rate. Non willingness to take risks for preserving his average. Pretty much useless in high scoring games. Very calculative.

 

Position 4:  Many here have wrong notion of the role of no. 4. Yes, batsmen at 4 plays calculative cricket but he does so while maintaining at least run a ball I.e. 100 SR. The batsman at  no 4 has to rotate strike constantly; play less dot balls. And sometimes even play a bit more aggressively to impart momentum especially if you have got a slow and steady start.

Is it the way dhoni bats nowadays? 

Absolutely not. He lingers at low SR for most part of his innings and covers up later and only about just most of the times. As such he is going to suck momentum of middle overs.

 

 

Position no. 5 :  This is disastrous position for dhoni. Even more so than no 4. The batsman at this position comes in invariably (all being normal i.e. no collapse)  when one needs to go all guns blazing or accelerate without any exception from the get go with significant amount of overs remaining ranging from 0 to 15. Dhoni will start his customary tuk tuk and waste many crucial overs because he cannot take off straightaway if at all that is. 

If there is one position where you require a batsman( not a slogger) with consistent hitting ability throughout his innings, its this. 

 

Position no. 6 : This position requires a batsman who can slog a bit. Need not necessarily be a sensible batsman but if you find one its great especially if you have collapse you got this covered. This is where dhoni can be used. Dhoni definitely can slog a few wildly.The only thing is he won't stay for long. But at this position most of the times batsman is left with just overs. Besides he will be batting with no.4, 5 or 7 batsman who can accelerate. Keep some good striker of the ball at 7 and you have one more high SR batsman around him. 

 

At the end of the day, ideal place for dhoni is out of the team. But at no. 6 we can hide him successfully.

 

 

 

 

@SK_IH You mentioned dhoni has scored runs at 5 recently which is wrong deendingon your definition of recent. He has been playing at 6 from SL series.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, prudent_kreeda said:

   Expressji ,   tweaking it a bit 

   6.  Pant .

   7.  Krunal / W Sundar  -   Do not count out this Kid .

   But i have lowered my expectation . This will happen post WC 19 

 

 

prudent ji  .... I have kept Pant at  6  as a  ' / ' option but,  as you said, little chance of it happening before WC 19. 

 

Sundar has started to impress for sure.  Good temperament too.  Would like to check his hitting ability against quicks.

 

We need to find another  batting all-rounder with six hitting ability ASAP .... to lend balance to the team.

[philcric]

Should try this order for couple of games and see how it goes.

 

S Dhawan

R Sharma

K Rahul

* V Kohli

H Pandya

K Jadhav

+ M Dhoni

B Kumar

K Yadav

Y Chahal

J Bumrah

[wanted_desi]

Iyer could be tried if Pandey fails for some time. 

[PSB_Zone]

See the most I am concerned abt in this lot is Kl Rahul..
He is a rare talent and he can emulate Kohli for us but sadly
he is wasted right now..He is too good batsmen to leave out 
Play him at 4 or 5 or even open with him but he just cant be left out..

Well idealy Kohli should bat at 4 but its also not a good idea coz that guy is a freak at no 3 
and more over he gets the better its for team..

Rohit was a middle order batsmen and him at 4 with all those big shots wd hv solved the problem
but now he cant go back to middle order after so much success.

Dhawan complements rohit well with aggresive shots and being a left hander he will open till
his form is intact..

So now where will Rahul bat ..Hmm seeing his recent struggles against spin specialy at the start of his innings ,
No. 4 hmm still I am not sure but somehow you hv to play him ..So play him at 5 or open for few matches to give
him confidence but he should play...

Now no. 4 I guess If raina maintains his fitness he with all his experince and a left hander is probably ideal.
He will not eat bowls and at 4 he is away from the fast bowlers as well...Now raina at 4 , rahul at 5 but sadly dhoni
cant play at 6 or 7 ...Someone like pant will be much much better there...Dhoni is only good for no. 4 but it will break the momentum ..

rahul with all those reverse sweeps and paddles will be grt finisher at 5..

Rohit/Dhwan/Kohli/Raina/Rahul/Pant/Pandya/Bhuvi/Kuldeep/Bumrah/Chahal

Now Whose going to bet that abv team wd hv white washed ausie and srilanka as well..

It has Right/  left combination right till bottom..Also two wrist spinners in english conditions might not be probable
So we need to develop a third seemed, idealy a left armer who could bat a bit or mohammad shami.. 

[Brainfade]

Am surprised at the love for KLR. Great talent, no doubt.

 

But, he is like the perennial best man who everyone hopes will find the perfect maiden soon, but as soon as he does, he slips and falls at the altar and has to start all over again. 

 

Until he can stay healthy for an extended period, there is no point in holding a place for him. 

[raki05]

On 29/09/2017 at 2:30 PM, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Has to be KL for me, just give him a long rope rather wasting it on rahane 

Dhoni shud nt bat anywere apart from 5 

Dhoni should not be in team anymore or else we will always have situation like wc 15, ct 17.He is doing the same mistake which he felt seniors like gambhir,Sehwag  did obstructing a new comer progress. The biggest concern is not even that but we always have this confusion that who to send on what position because of Dhoni's complete loss finishing touch in more than 6 run rate chase, As other mentioned he is only good for less than 6 run chase and that too in only bilateral and against weaker opposition.He can still consolidate but he can't win u the matches on his own which is very imperative in modern day cricket for his crucial position. I know it's harsh for some of his hard-core fan and quite justifiable but realistically we shall be moving forward or else we should be ready to sacrifice some more crucial matches. Now it's up to selector whom they want to sacrifice individual glory or nation pride.

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, raki05 said:

Dhoni should not be in team anymore or else we will always have situation like wc 15, ct 17.He is doing the same mistake which he felt seniors like gambhir,Sehwag  did obstructing a new comer progress. The biggest concern is not even that but we always have this confusion that who to send on what position because of Dhoni's complete loss finishing touch in more than 6 run rate chase, As other mentioned he is only good for less than 6 run chase and that too in only bilateral and against weaker opposition.He can still consolidate but he can't win u the matches on his own which is very imperative in modern day cricket for his crucial position. I know it's harsh for some of his hard-core fan and quite justifiable but realistically we shall be moving forward or else we should be ready to sacrifice some more crucial matches. Now it's up to selector whom they want to sacrifice individual glory or nation pride.

No those guys were absolute liabilities in the team on field which dhoni is not, he is sharp behind stumps 

Dhoni biggest problem was lack of contribution as their runs dried up they didnt contribute anywere

Dhoni contributes to captaincy, keeping, winning u games around 250 total , guiding youngster.  I dnt think he is a match winner anymore but he is a good utility player 

 

If a youngster is good enough he ll take a place, there are enough vacant places 

 

Stop crying this victim card theory . 

 

I aint no one hardcore fan , im a fan but aint a blind one ........i just look what a player offers to the team and dhoni is certainely of the biggest problem of this team right.  If youngsters are so good no.4 and 6 are available ........and in reality no yooungsters has performed in way that just makes impossible for anyone to ignore. 

[raki05]

3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

No those guys were absolute liabilities in the team on field which dhoni is not, he is sharp behind stumps 

Dhoni biggest problem was lack of contribution as their runs dried up they didnt contribute anywere

Dhoni contributes to captaincy, keeping, winning u games around 250 total , guiding youngster.  I dnt think he is a match winner anymore but he is a good utility player 

 

If a youngster is good enough he ll take a place, there are enough vacant places 

 

Stop crying this victim card theory . 

 

I aint no one hardcore fan , im a fan but aint a blind one ........i just look what a player offers to the team and dhoni is certainely of the biggest problem of this team right.  If youngsters are so good no.4 and 6 are available ........and in reality no yooungsters has performed in way that just makes impossible for anyone to ignore. 

First of all don't get offended as I was also his fan. Now coming to the topic how can you blame youngster who are not yet sure of their position as we have  to accommodate dhoni in between according to situation. Also contributing as captain should not be criteria of selection and as far as keeping is concerned that's his primary role and it is bau  for him and least requirement .When we talk about 250 chases he is not winning them alone even last time when we chases 250 in crisis situation Bhuvi outscored him. So please don't give excuse as contributing in captaincy, we need just one captain and if Virar is not good enough he should be replaced with someone more suitable. But dont cry hypothetical stuff which is least require for winning. Also any youngsters need thorough chance to establish himself. What I can see he is hindering a potential talent  pant who should have been groomed after ct 17. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, raki05 said:

First of all don't get offended as I was also his fan. Now coming to the topic how can you blame youngster who are not yet sure of their position as we have  to accommodate dhoni in between according to situation. Also contributing as captain should not be criteria of selection and as far as keeping is concerned that's his primary role and it is bau  for him and least requirement .When we talk about 250 chases he is not winning them alone even last time when we chases 250 in crisis situation Bhuvi outscored him. So please don't give excuse as contributing in captaincy, we need just one captain and if Virar is not good enough he should be replaced with someone more suitable. But dont cry hypothetical stuff which is least require for winning. Also any youngsters need thorough chance to establish himself. What I can see he is hindering a potential talent  pant who should have been groomed after ct 17. 

chances are grabbed not begged

Now isnt pandey, rahul jadhav getting chances. Who stopped pant from scoring Runs in SA, pandey did and got back to the team . 

Dhoni is not accomodated, he hasnt done anything to be dropped. 

Captaincy isnt the only criteria its one of his many contribution .............

There is only one captain but captains do take others players help, if u have one the most brilliant odi captain at ur help who wnt use it . Didnt smith use dhoni in IPL. 

 

M not against any youngster getting a chance, specially pant i think he is good enough to play as batsman but whatever chances he is getting he has to make use of it be it duleep, A-series or whatever. 

 

Dinesh karthik hindered pant before dhoni, now if team mngmt gave karthik a chance before pant and dropped him from next series may be they feel he is not ready. 

 

Didnt MSK prasad say they are looking to progress Pant through t20s , may be they have diff plan for him 

[Lannister]

We need to make use of Pandya's ability to hit sixes at will against the spinners. But playing him at 4 will only increase his workload and seeing he's the only power hitter down the order, it will be unfair on other players who are not used to that role. For me, he's best to bat at #5.

4 will go to either KL Rahul or Manish Pandey.

If only Manish could bat at high strike rates, he could've been easily tried at 6. For now, I would play him ahead of KL considering the current form and would stick to the same top 4 with out constant chops or change in batting orders at least for 15-20 matches. 

As for KLR goes, he's someone special who have the ability to match even Kohli. So I'd rather see him warm the bench than waste his talent on #5 or #6 positions. I think he needs to wait a little longer until a spot opens up in top 4.

That leaves us at #6 spot opened, with no potential candidates to fill. I think this where our management failed spectacularly in the last couple of years, giving too much emphasis on just the top order. For me, #4 and #6 are the most important positions for a team to succeed. 

For now this will be my middle order,

Pandey at 4

Pandya (batting-allrounder)

Kedhar / Krunal (batting-allrounder)

Pant (W)

Edited October 1, 2017 by Lannister

[maniac]

7 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

chances are grabbed not begged

Now isnt pandey, rahul jadhav getting chances. Who stopped pant from scoring Runs in SA, pandey did and got back to the team . 

Dhoni is not accomodated, he hasnt done anything to be dropped. 

Captaincy isnt the only criteria its one of his many contribution .............

There is only one captain but captains do take others players help, if u have one the most brilliant odi captain at ur help who wnt use it . Didnt smith use dhoni in IPL. 

 

M not against any youngster getting a chance, specially pant i think he is good enough to play as batsman but whatever chances he is getting he has to make use of it be it duleep, A-series or whatever. 

 

Dinesh karthik hindered pant before dhoni, now if team mngmt gave karthik a chance before pant and dropped him from next series may be they feel he is not ready. 

 

Didnt MSK prasad say they are looking to progress Pant through t20s , may be they have diff plan for him 

How did Dinesh Karthik hinder Pant when the fact was Karthik was playing as a batsman in the same team as Dhoni when he was selected recently

 

but agreed with the context though Dinesh Karthik hinders everyone when he gets selected again and again

Edited October 1, 2017 by maniac

[raki05]

8 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

chances are grabbed not begged

Now isnt pandey, rahul jadhav getting chances. Who stopped pant from scoring Runs in SA, pandey did and got back to the team . 

Dhoni is not accomodated, he hasnt done anything to be dropped. 

Captaincy isnt the only criteria its one of his many contribution .............

There is only one captain but captains do take others players help, if u have one the most brilliant odi captain at ur help who wnt use it . Didnt smith use dhoni in IPL. 

 

M not against any youngster getting a chance, specially pant i think he is good enough to play as batsman but whatever chances he is getting he has to make use of it be it duleep, A-series or whatever. 

 

Dinesh karthik hindered pant before dhoni, now if team mngmt gave karthik a chance before pant and dropped him from next series may be they feel he is not ready. 

 

Didnt MSK prasad say they are looking to progress Pant through t20s , may be they have diff plan for him 

I think we are on the same page. It's just that i feel its the best time to groom a youngster keeper whom we are looking as an future and this 2 year after ct17 is best time to do so. I don't see a reason why should dhoni be playing each and every meaningless series atleast against weaker opposition like sri snd wi we could have tried pant,as there is no better learning experience than plsying against international team, even Pandya turned in to different beast by being  in the team for one year.

Edited October 1, 2017 by raki05

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 hours ago, maniac said:

How did Dinesh Karthik hinder Pant when the fact was Karthik was playing as a batsman in the same team as Dhoni when he was selected recently

 

but agreed with the context though Dinesh Karthik hinders everyone when he gets selected again and again

Pant was good enough to play as batsman and dhoni has done nothing to be dropped. Just becoz someone is at wrong side u cant drop him. M no fan of jadhav but still wud say he hasnt done bad to be dropped. 

 

N if pant n dhoni are their, most will make dhoni keep as he is a better keeper and helps bowlers better due his experience. 

2 hours ago, raki05 said:

I think we are on the same page. It's just that i feel its the best time to groom a youngster keeper whom we are looking as an future and this 2 year after ct17 is best time to do so. I don't see a reason why should dhoni be playing each and every meaningless series atleast against weaker opposition like sri snd wi we could have tried pant,as there is no better learning experience than plsying against international team, even Pandya turned in to different beast by being  in the team for one year.

M all up for grooming, infact i was against dropping pant but in reality selectors wont work in ICF demands . Selection is not in pant's hand what he shud do is score whenever given a chance. Say watever the reality is his Avg Sa-A tour didnt help his case and had he scored heavily it wud have become more difficult for selectors to ignore. Look at sundar whenever he gets a chance he is performing. 

IF dhoni is in the scheme of 2019 he has play a lot coz he has to work on his game, at his age sitting at bench doesnt help. 

M really hoping pant plays but doesnt mean dhoni shud be dropped who atleast is contributing, ill rather kick rahane who is of no use.