Thommo - how quick was he?'

[Trichromatic]

25 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

conventional swing has increased in eng ,asia it hardly ever swung ,nz sa remains same,may be in aus it has reduced but it never swung there that much ,reverse ofcourse has gone

NZ and SA are producing flat tracks more often than earlier. Ball hardly swings in Asia anymore. It was much better for pacers till early 2000s with at least help in first session. Australia has never been flatter before. England is more or less with all the venues. It's just that England have much better pacers now.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

NZ and SA are producing flat tracks more often than earlier. Ball hardly swings in Asia anymore. It was much better for pacers till early 2000s with at least help in first session. Australia has never been flatter before. England is more or less with all the venues. It's just that England have much better pacers now.

and wi is very diff too

[Nonbeliever]

2 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

dont see much diff in nz ,sa .eng definitely more swing now as floodlights are on and you can play under lots of cloud cover,in asia conventional swing was always minimal key was reverse,except for odd occasions.

People are scoring 350 plus when pitch is assisting them like never before in eng

[rkt.india]

23 minutes ago, Nonbeliever said:

People are scoring 350 plus when pitch is assisting them like never before in eng

not in tests

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

and wi is very diff too

WI is not very different. It is just perception. WI has two fast bowling friendly centers Barbados and Sabina park and they still are.

[Nonbeliever]

14 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

not in tests

If u Believe that pitches are same as they used to be then good for u.  

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, MultiB48 said:

dont see much diff in nz ,sa .eng definitely more swing now as floodlights are on and you can play under lots of cloud cover,in asia conventional swing was always minimal key was reverse,except for odd occasions.

 

Tests --

 

SA is similar .... even medium pacers like Philander getting regular success using consistent seam movement ... pace and bounce of pitches still there

 

Eng -- Bounce has increased .... movement similar in tests 

 

NZ -- A couple of more flattish pitches .... bit still lots of movement-friendly venues

 

Aus -- A couple of  venues a bit flatter ... but pace and bounce still there ... Australia was never known for a lot of movement barring some venues on occasions .... batters found the extra pace and bounce difficult

 

WI  -- Slightly flatter pitches in only a couple of venues

 

India -- Most pitches similar from pacers' point of view ... conventional seam and swing always minimal .... reverse swing usable ... we are getting lively tracks like Dharamsala, Eden now.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

29 minutes ago, Nonbeliever said:

If u Believe that pitches are same as they used to be then good for u.  

so you believe there were no pattas in 70-80s? Where did say pitches are same but you are always going have mix of the type of pitches especially in England that depends more on weather than just pitch. 

[renjith]

One reason why thomson could be extremely quick is his action. That is the perfect action for bowling extremely quick.

[express bowling]

34 minutes ago, Nonbeliever said:

If u Believe that pitches are same as they used to be then good for u.  

 

English pitches in tests are not the same.... they have more bounce and a bit more pace now

 

English test pitches became much flatter in the 1990s and early 2000s, when they did not have good fast bowlers and after they got white-washed multiple times by the WI in the 1980s .

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

 there were no pattas in 70-80s? 

 

I remember commentators lamenting rather frequently about flat test match pitches in the mid and late '80s.

 

The high % of draws bear testimony to that.

[Rightarmfast]

11 hours ago, putrevus said:

It took 30 years for someone to break Milkha Singh record and PT usha still holds 400 m hurdles record.Point being there are some talents which are once in century talents.Thompson or WI fast bowlers were such talents.

 

Johnson was a freak who was either hot or cold.He got pummeled the next year by Indians on same pitches he terrorized Eng.

When the topic is about athletics, we speak about the level of athletes across the world, its not area specific. What you are talking about,PT Usha and Milkha, is a very complex scenario. Now we are talking about socio economic situations, opportunities etc. You can't just say since PT Usha's record still holds, so the level of athletecism is the same. Its hilarious.

It could also mean that talented people are perhaps choosing other careers like IT and stuff. It could also mean that the govt has stopped giving opportunities to athletes.

Its the same situation with west indies. Theres no money in cricket, so people choose basketball and other sports. Hence you do not see any more genuine quicks!

Sports in India is limited to cricket. I myself used to represent Karnataka in Boxing, the situation is so bad. I live in Bangalore, one of the best places in India, but you got to go to Sports authority of Karnataka, in kanteerva stadium to see the facility. Theres no water iin the toilet, the ladies hostel has no windows so its  totally open , making the girls change their clothes when everybody can see them from outside! And I am not joking. In this situation, do you expect you will get champions?

Girls/ boys from well off families can afford it like Saina Nehwal etc.... But the real talents come from smaller places, but are we giving them the facilities? I dont think so.

 

So your point is totally wrong!

[rkt.india]

20 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

two words: momentum transfer. If Running had nothing to do with bowling speeds, fast bowlers wouldn't be running in to bowl. they'd just stand and bowl fast.

transfer of momentum and not just running. Running alone wont make you fast. Neither if you bowl fast, it will automatically transfer the momentum in bowling. It's completely different. 

Edited October 7, 2017 by rkt.india

[putrevus]

9 hours ago, rkt.india said:

athletes all over the world have become better, faster, stronger. Batsmen have become better at handling pace. 140 would in those days wold seem like 160 in those days due to poor gears and reflexes.

I beg to differ, we are talking cream of the crop here. If they have become stronger and fast why have we not seeing any Lee or Akthar now.

 

We may never see any Shane Warne or Murali either.Thommo's  speed was not exaggerated people who have played fast bowling with some distinction are not fools.There is reason why Holding was termed fastest among 1980s WI bowlers and Patrick Paterson was supposed to be the fastest among all those WI bowlers.

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

I beg to differ, we are talking cream of the crop here. If they have become stronger and fast why have we not seeing any Lee or Akthar now.

 

We may never see any Shane Warne or Murali either.Thommo's  speed was not exaggerated people who have played fast bowling with some distinction are not fools.There is reason why Holding was termed fastest among 1980s WI bowlers and Patrick Paterson was supposed to be the fastest among all those WI bowlers.

Holding bhi fastest, Paterson bhi fastest. Regarding shoaib, lee, they were freaks. You don't bring freaks and take them as norms. Look Indian pacers, how many 90 mph pacers we had in 80s-90s and look at out now we have at least 12-15 such bowlers in indian cricket. I consider Thomson Freak too. He certainly was fastest of his era but how fast he bowled is difficult to say.

Edited October 7, 2017 by rkt.india

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

transfer of momentum and not just running. Running alone wont make you fast. Neither if you bowl fast, it will automatically transfer the momentum in bowling. It's completely different. 

You generate momentum by running. You said running had nothing to do with fast bowling. You are 100% wrong, period.

Michael Holding was both the best runner cricket has ever seen and had one of the easiest actions, with an excellent momentum transfer. Hence why he was the fastest bowler ever, in terms of consistency of pace throughout the day. 

 

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

When the topic is about athletics, we speak about the level of athletes across the world, its not area specific. What you are talking about,PT Usha and Milkha, is a very complex scenario. Now we are talking about socio economic situations, opportunities etc. You can't just say since PT Usha's record still holds, so the level of athletecism is the same. Its hilarious.

It could also mean that talented people are perhaps choosing other careers like IT and stuff. It could also mean that the govt has stopped giving opportunities to athletes.

Its the same situation with west indies. Theres no money in cricket, so people choose basketball and other sports. Hence you do not see any more genuine quicks!

Sports in India is limited to cricket. I myself used to represent Karnataka in Boxing, the situation is so bad. I live in Bangalore, one of the best places in India, but you got to go to Sports authority of Karnataka, in kanteerva stadium to see the facility. Theres no water iin the toilet, the ladies hostel has no windows so its  totally open , making the girls change their clothes when everybody can see them from outside! And I am not joking. In this situation, do you expect you will get champions?

Girls/ boys from well off families can afford it like Saina Nehwal etc.... But the real talents come from smaller places, but are we giving them the facilities? I dont think so.

 

So your point is totally wrong!

We are not talking about general population here , I gave PT Usha as reference here because she is once in generation athlete.People like her are not some product of nutritional or technological improvements.

 

Govt has not stopped giving opportunities the fact is there is lot more awareness for sports now a days especially in India. So your statement that govt has stopped giving opportunity is totally wrong.You think bureaucratic impediment was less during PT Usha's era.

 

We have not seen any WI people in basketball. Holdings and Garners are not born everyday. So it does not matter how far technology/nutrition has improved you need people who have ability to bowl fast. Bowling fast is a gift which you have to be born with it cannot be taught .WI had that great era of fast bowlers not because of any system they just were blessed and got lucky.

 

Guys like Thompson are not product of any system .

 

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by putrevus

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Holding bhi fastest, Paterson bhi fastest. Regarding shoaib, lee, they were freaks. You don't bring freaks and take them as norms. Look Indian pacers, how many 90 mph pacers we had in 80s-90s and look at out now we have at least 12-15 such bowlers in indian cricket. I consider Thomson Freak too. He certainly was fastest of his era but how fast he bowled is difficult to say.

We are talking about freaks here not general population.I never said Thompson was fastest but this notion that other were/are faster just because of technological advances is ridiculous. 

[rkt.india]

8 minutes ago, putrevus said:

We are talking about freaks here not general population.I never said Thompson was fastest but this notion that other were/are faster just because of technological advances is ridiculous. 

No, that's not ridiculous at all, better training, better knowledge has certainly created more fast bowlers but there is a limit to evolution too. Like evolution from Jesse Owens to Usain boult it is steady and becomes flower overtime. 

[rkt.india]

25 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

You generate momentum by running. You said running had nothing to do with fast bowling. You are 100% wrong, period.

Michael Holding was both the best runner cricket has ever seen and had one of the easiest actions, with an excellent momentum transfer. Hence why he was the fastest bowler ever, in terms of consistency of pace throughout the day. 

 

Yes. More than running it's the transfer 9f of energy that is important. Did you see kemar roach when he came in, he would barely jog in but bowled 150kph. In the end, generating pace depends more on elasticity and flexibility of muscles and right position when delivering and not running. Same with Yadav, he just jogs in.