The importance of introducing and backing exciting new talent with regularity

[MCcricket]

1 minute ago, Vilander said:

yeah Ashwin Jadeja Murli and Raina. All of them sifarshi their skill had clearly nothing to do with their selection correct you are very true. Aoutstanding observation.

Remember Balaji, n not giving players in the squad a chance to play for whole series n bench them so regulars r not challenged, how would u know if India doesn't have a better bowler then Jadeja, or batter like Rain who was not the same when we wouldn't let anyone challenge their spots? Kyadav n Chahal have proved they r better ODI options then Jadeja n Ashwin, same with Raina who seems like he is a washed away talent n Jadhav , Pandya are better then him currently.

[BeautifulGame]

11 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Would you have watched as many ODIs with interest in the 2005 to 2013 period if it was Parthiv or Karthick in place of Dhoni  ?

 

Would we have won as many ODIs between 2005 to 2013 if it was Parthiv or Karthick in place of Dhoni  ?

 

 

My  disagreement is that we need to introduce youngsters not because we need superstars for the future but a forward planning to build a strong team.

 

What I am saying is cricket as a sport in India has outgrown any need of superstar to sustain following.It has become such an integral thing in India that it creates Stardom in players and following instead of needing any superstar to sustain a following if it makes sense.

 

 

[BeautifulGame]

8 hours ago, maniac said:

The problem right now is a lot of player power...Reminds me of the saying letting inmates run the asylum...In the history of Indian cricket apart from Sachin I have never seen an individual cricketer enjoy so much power and leverage leave alone a group of players....BCCI and the administration from time to time let players know who is the boss- even with  Likes of Kapil,Gavaskar and Ganguly it never felt that they were bigger than the selectors or BCCI....in fact those days don’t think selectors were not even decent domestic cricketers leave alone mediocre international cricketers that we have now.

Let's not gloss over history .It's the player power that forced Kapil to resign as coach.Its the player power that forced BCCI to appoint a foreign coach in John wright (which turned out a great choice is a different) and it is player power that made BCCI pick Greg Chappell as coach ahead of Moody . Ganguly personally endorsed Chappell and he was choosen.

 

And the same seniors didn't give Kohli that option when it came to choosing the coach.If anything it was lack of player power that led to the ugly mess of Kumble and Kohli.

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The whole Kohli-Kumble thing lets put taking sides aside for a moment and for argument sake let us say Kumble was the worst coach ever,it was still a poorly handled debacle by the BCCI.Some times right or wrong you just have to put your foot downbut the whole fiasco felt like BCCI just gave in to demands of a few individuals.

Yeah BCCI did that with Ganguly-Chapell and we all saw how ugly the fall out was.Perhaps they learnt their lesson.

When the coach loses the dressing room he has to go.

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Look at the selections right now...Young batsmen are not tried and the ones with potential are benched like KL Rahul. Even though never a big fan of either Jadhav or Pandey,clearly Pandey has the more upside of the 2...a better fielder and a better athlete.Jadhav even though has been a decent journey man cricketer it is clear that he feels like a safer option being a 30+ year old under achiever.

 

Jadhav has consistently taken his chances whereas Pandey has consistently wasted them.And Jadhav is a highly useful 6th bowler.

 

There is no logical reason to pick Pandey ahead of Jadhav.Its not safer option more like deserving player keeps his place which also helps team balance.

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Let us buy the argument for a second  that there is no alternative to Dhoni and Dhoni has been a brilliant performer playing in his prime right now and has stellar stats,but it’s a fact that he is not going to play T20’beyond 2018 or Odi after 2019, where are the alternatives being readied to take over from him? Are we just going to throw options at the wall and hope they stick after 2018 and 2019??? Where is the back up plan? Is it a 33yr old Karthik...u gotta be kidding

Karthick isn't Dhoni replacement.He is being tried at no.4

 

But yes it is incompetence that they aren't dropping him in T20s and trying someone like Pant.

 

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Jayant Yadav performs decently as an allrounder/Spinner but he is clearly a threat to Ash and Jadeja and slowly he disappears from the face of the earth.

Jayant Yadav was dropped because 

 

1) He sucked in Australia series 

2) We needed a more attacking spinner and hence Kuldeep replaced him in Dharmasthala test and more importantly

 

3) we found a better balance in the team by playing Pandya at no.8 in Srilanka

which  also helps planning for overseas tours where we will need a seam all rounder.

 

Jayant Yadav is not even remotely a threat to Jadeja or Ashwin  in test cricket.

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Sran a left armer shows a lot of promise but inexplicably Nehra makes a comeback to the side from nowhere in 2016.

Sean got injured and was rehabilitating.

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Dhawan performs poorly in all his T20 opportunities and is dropped from T20 but just walks into the T20 side with no questions raised.

Our T20 selection sucks can't deny that.Dhawan Rohit Dhoni Pandey all have poor records yet keep getting selected.

 

It's the selectors fault when so many poor selections are made.Not a conspiracy.

 

Perhaps we should appoint selectors who understand T20 and maybe played them.Our lot seem to think good our record is good enough for T20 selections.

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Karun Nair even though I still think his 300

was a fluke but it is still a frickin 300 at the test level against a top side-England...he just gets 3 more games and is dropped without even being in the scheme of things.

Because we wanted to play five bowlers and Rahane (one of our best players came back fit)

 

Same reason Aussies dropped Brad Hodge after a double hundred.

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Something is clearly not right

Perhaps not.

 

I do fully agree with @express bowling article that Kohli has this irrational attitude of looking for experience 30something players instead of bringing through youngsters.

 

The reality is Kohli has been our test Captain since 2013 and we haven't given tried a single fast bowler is proof of that.

But it's more to do with his  safety first approach than some conspiracy.

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by BeautifulGame

[Turning_track]

Kohli, selectors, team management know all this, they're just doing lip service that they'll give chance to the youngsters whenever it is possible. But actually they never really do. It has just become, you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

God knows when Pant, Ishan Kishan, KL, Manish etc will be given full backing from the captain.

Also I want to add, the agency and PR teams of superstars like Dhoni, Rohit, Yuvi etc have successfully created an image in everybody's mind that without them the team is incomplete and it is ok to fail in a few crucial moments i.e. it happens to other players as well.

That is why in social media you see, people talk about inclusion of Gambhir, Yuvi and even Uthappa, as if their re-entry will make our team deadly as never before.

We all know some of these superstars have bought multi million properties,residences in Mumbai and sometimes they do not visit their hometowns after an overseas tour. Why is that? This has been happening since the time of Azhar. Lets us not blind ourselves by these players whom we love and who have mesmerized us through their skills on the field, they're not blameless and exert a lot of pressue on the selection issues as well as in other criteria.

Commercial interests are at stake and our revered stars with their ilk are making sure it continues being protected.

 

[express bowling]

Shreyas Iyer seems to have improved his ability to play pace and bounce and build an innings.  Here is the first part of a video of him scoring 140* in 131 balls in the final of the A-team List A tournament in South Africa. He is using the back and across trigger movement, going to the line of the ball to play, riding the bounce well and building an innings in a critical match on a pitch with some bounce.  Quite impressive. 

 

Watch from 1.33.10 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is another video of him where he is seen hitting spinners for big 6s.  We were looking for a middle order batter who can destroy spinners and,  as @prudent_kreeda had pointed out in another thread  , Iyer is one of them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by express bowling

[maniac]

2 hours ago, BeautifulGame said:

Let's not gloss over history .It's the player power that forced Kapil to resign as coach.Its the player power that forced BCCI to appoint a foreign coach in John wright (which turned out a great choice is a different) and it is player power that made BCCI pick Greg Chappell as coach ahead of Moody . Ganguly personally endorsed Chappell and he was choosen.

 

And the same seniors didn't give Kohli that option when it came to choosing the coach.If anything it was lack of player power that led to the ugly mess of Kumble and Kohli.

Yeah BCCI did that with Ganguly-Chapell and we all saw how ugly the fall out was.Perhaps they learnt their lesson.

When the coach loses the dressing room he has to go.

 

Jadhav has consistently taken his chances whereas Pandey has consistently wasted them.And Jadhav is a highly useful 6th bowler.

 

There is no logical reason to pick Pandey ahead of Jadhav.Its not safer option more like deserving player keeps his place which also helps team balance.

Karthick isn't Dhoni replacement.He is being tried at no.4

 

But yes it is incompetence that they aren't dropping him in T20s and trying someone like Pant.

 

Jayant Yadav was dropped because 

 

1) He sucked in Australia series 

2) We needed a more attacking spinner and hence Kuldeep replaced him in Dharmasthala test and more importantly

 

3) we found a better balance in the team by playing Pandya at no.8 in Srilanka

which  also helps planning for overseas tours where we will need a seam all rounder.

 

Jayant Yadav is not even remotely a threat to Jadeja or Ashwin  in test cricket.

Sean got injured and was rehabilitating.

Our T20 selection sucks can't deny that.Dhawan Rohit Dhoni Pandey all have poor records yet keep getting selected.

 

It's the selectors fault when so many poor selections are made.Not a conspiracy.

 

Perhaps we should appoint selectors who understand T20 and maybe played them.Our lot seem to think good our record is good enough for T20 selections.

Because we wanted to play five bowlers and Rahane (one of our best players came back fit)

 

Same reason Aussies dropped Brad Hodge after a double hundred.

Perhaps not.

 

I do fully agree with @express bowling article that Kohli has this irrational attitude of looking for experience 30something players instead of bringing through youngsters.

 

The reality is Kohli has been our test Captain since 2013 and we haven't given tried a single fast bowler is proof of that.

But it's more to do with his  safety first approach than some conspiracy.

 

Looks like you are just contradicting me for the heck of it....Now there are 2 things there is dissent for an authority figure like Coach,Captain etc as it was in the case of Chappell,Kapil or Kumble and then there is totally giving in to player demands.

 

Kapil was a poor coach and even though players were not happy with him,it took the match fixing scandal to break out when he was in the spotlight and he resinged "voluntarily" .This had nothing to do with Player power.he went out of the spotlight on his own.

 

Similarly sure players might have had an input in picking Chappell but the kind of power he wielded and the kind of  contract he had wouldn't have been possible without BCCI's blessing. during the whole Ganguly-Chappell fiasco,Chappell was backed and Ganguly dropped for his own poor form because it was the right thing to do. Clearly Ganguly was more popular than Chappell in the dressing room...where was the player power?

 

With Kumble it is a little different...There was an interim committee comprised of Ex-Players and not the board that took decisions. I don't want to go in detail but it is still fresh enough and you have agreed on that it was handled poorly.

 

Sran's injury status before WT20 is something I am not sure of but sure as hell did not justify Nehra's return and make Nehra our go to left armer at age 37.

 

Jadhav vs Pandey-Sure it is subjective but I personally think Pandey has more of an upside but yeah debatable.

 

Nair and Jayant-no matter ho returns a guy who hits a 300 does not get dropped after 3 games-period.Getting dropped from the X1 sure,would have been somewhat reasonable but out of the squad?

 

Same with Jayant Yadav-He should be in the scheme of things,as one series doesn't justify dropping him as he did have a good run before that.

Edited October 29, 2017 by maniac

[tweaker]

Kuldeep is dropped to accommodate Axar so that Jadeja can walk in the team for the next series

[tweaker]

Forget Siraj, Thampi, Kejoroliya, this team management is even averse to give a game to Shardul who is in the squad.

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, tweaker said:

Forget Siraj, Thampi, Kejoroliya, this team management is even averse to give a game to Shardul who is in the squad.

 

Really want Siraj to get a few games.

 

He can bowl skiddy-quick indippers at will, punctuated by sharp bouncers  ..... picks up lots of wickets in every format.

 

Gets both seam movement and swing .... and it is late swing.

[BeautifulGame]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

 

Similarly sure players might have had an input in picking Chappell but the kind of power he wielded and the kind of  contract he had wouldn't have been possible without BCCI's blessing. during the whole Ganguly-Chappell fiasco,Chappell was backed and Ganguly dropped for his own poor form because it was the right thing to do. Clearly Ganguly was more popular than Chappell in the dressing room...where was the player power?

 

 

Er that's what I said .In the Chappell Ganguly saga they backed the coach and it ended ugly as well.

1 hour ago, maniac said:

 

With Kumble it is a little different...There was an interim committee comprised of Ex-Players and not the board that took decisions. I don't want to go in detail but it is still fresh enough and you have agreed on that it was handled poorly.

Yes the point is the likes of Ganguly demanded influence in picking coach when he was captain and yet denied that to Kohli when he became Captain.So there wasn't as much player power as in the past which the earlier post was glossing over.

 

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Sran's injury status before WT20 is something I am not sure of but sure as hell did not justify Nehra's return and make Nehra our go to left armer at age 37.

 

Check left arm seamers record in WT20s.They ahve been exceptional in WT20 from RP Singh to Amir to Sidebottom .And Nehra had a great IPL with CSK .Age didn't matter and as his performance proved ,he was one of best bowlers in the tournament

 

1 hour ago, maniac said:

 

Jadhav vs Pandey-Sure it is subjective but I personally think Pandey has more of an upside but yeah debatable.

 

Not really.Jadhav bowling contribution simply seals any debate.His numbers are at elite All-rounder level

 

1 hour ago, maniac said:

 

Nair and Jayant-no matter ho returns a guy who hits a 300 does not get dropped after 3 games-period.Getting dropped from the X1 sure,would have been somewhat reasonable but out of the squad?

He is replaced by Rohit in the squad.As you know someone who averaged 80+ in his last series.

1 hour ago, maniac said:

 

Same with Jayant Yadav-He should be in the scheme of things,as one series doesn't justify dropping him as he did have a good run before that.

We get better players we drop inferior players.

 

We got Kuldeep and Pandya both far more important in the squad.Whom of these would you Seriously drop for Jayant Yadav really?

[Vilander]

11 hours ago, MCcricket said:

Remember Balaji, n not giving players in the squad a chance to play for whole series n bench them so regulars r not challenged, how would u know if India doesn't have a better bowler then Jadeja, or batter like Rain who was not the same when we wouldn't let anyone challenge their spots? Kyadav n Chahal have proved they r better ODI options then Jadeja n Ashwin, same with Raina who seems like he is a washed away talent n Jadhav , Pandya are better then him currently.

you are taking about current scenario not when they played. there was merit in their selections. 

[King Tendulkar]

Agree to some extent some of this . But mob on icf will soon tear in to a kid who does not look good for a few games and launch into pimping next young beauty

 

no doubts on icf that you become a better player when not in team and especially when never played for india before 

[prudent_kreeda]

20 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

One of the biggest failure of this team mngmt has been this only- developing youngsters. Why do i say failure its becoz of the amazing pool of players we have now 

 

Iyer, pant could have been given chances

Rahul (odi) n Nair (test) could have been well backed 

Kuldeep and chahal could have been given chances before CT 

Aniket cud have been given a go in test series against aus rather we choose ishant again. 

 

SL tour, Wi tour, Ind-Aus t20 series - these were 15-20 games were we cud have tried so many youngster and few good champion players could have been discovered instead we gave these games to regulars whose personal record got better. 

 

These 15-20 games cud cost us World cup as few players might miss out due to lack of exp excuse and the likes of karthik , yuvraj , raina cud be seen back just on basis of their experience . 

 

So much to try, so lil time left that to now will be overseas , may be these tough tours wud literally challenge players and highlight many of our problem that has been thrown under carpet coz we are winning without being even challenged 

     Well   watch out ...  

    It could well be they will select couple these youngsters in batting for SA & Aus one days series and show to the world that they  are not good enough and then path is clear for all favored oldies to be in the 15 till WC 19 .. 

     Lets see and observe team fopr SA ....

 

Edited October 29, 2017 by prudent_kreeda

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, King Tendulkar said:

Agree to some extent some of this . But mob on icf will soon tear in to a kid who does not look good for a few games and launch into pimping next young beauty

 

no doubts on icf that you become a better player when not in team and especially when never played for india before 

And the best ones are the ones who retired 20 uears back and are granddads now..they bowled 160k.

[Laaloo]

3 hours ago, King Tendulkar said:

Agree to some extent some of this . But mob on icf will soon tear in to a kid who does not look good for a few games and launch into pimping next young beauty

 

no doubts on icf that you become a better player when not in team and especially when never played for india before 

like how you have been pimping Prithvi Shaw lately?

[Ankit_sharma03]

23 minutes ago, prudent_kreeda said:

     Well   watch out ...  

    It could well be they will select couple these youngsters in batting for SA & Aus one days series and show to the world that they  are not good enough and then path is clear for all favored oldies to be in the 15 till WC 19 .. 

     Lets see and observe team fopr SA ....

 

I dnt mind that , give them a chance

A good player will trump all challenges 

[maniac]

3 hours ago, King Tendulkar said:

Agree to some extent some of this . But mob on icf will soon tear in to a kid who does not look good for a few games and launch into pimping next young beauty

 

no doubts on icf that you become a better player when not in team and especially when never played for india before 

So you are ok with the current line up of Karthik,Dhoni,Nehra in T20s,Yuvraj coming back etc etc?

[King Tendulkar]

5 hours ago, Laaloo said:

like how you have been pimping Prithvi Shaw lately?

Yes I have been . But you see many people post about 4 or 5 players who all shoudl be in team right now and all future legends 

 

some real randomn names. Literally many want 5 new players and anyone over the age of 25 is past it and should be dumped 

 

listen agree some exciting talent coming through . 

[King Tendulkar]

5 hours ago, maniac said:

So you are ok with the current line up of Karthik,Dhoni,Nehra in T20s,Yuvraj coming back etc etc?

Yuvraj and dhoni and nehra well past it I agree . In t 20 some weird picks no doubts 

 

in odis only dhoni is stinker . We have to admit rahane and kartick done very well in last 6 to 10 months in odis and taken chances but icf failed to appreciate that and still hyping anyone else not in team 

 

tests solid picks all round to be frank .  No reason to moan much 

 

Main point is that no doubts icf has really gone ott in that anyone not in team is suddenly amazing. And any one has one good ranji game is superb and should be in team . Need a balanced approach and at the moment icf been to keen for whole sale changes 

[King Tendulkar]

Do agree on new keeper for all limited overs games 

 

plus iyer needs to be involved as well now 

 

but many new talents playing and given chances . Can’t have all 11 like that ? Pandya is in . Kuldeep Yadav . Chahal . Examples of new young talent played etc yet icf can’t see that and wants more and more . Balance guys