Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[Mariyam]

2 minutes ago, velu said:

 

if kallis is a good "5th bowler" , it doesnt make him a world class in the class of mcgrath , donald , pollock etc 

 

still the bowling lineup is not world class as you guys make it 

Isn't Kallis supposed to be the best all rounder ever?

 

Come on, he was an amazing bowler. Very difficult to score runs off. Just like Hansie Cronje.

Boring maybe, but very effective.

[velu]

13 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

5 over powerplay for batting team etc. that they could pick any time etc. not sure of the 2 new ball rule was in place by then

 

powerplays actually favored sachin .. first 15 overs are mandatory power plays which sachin got a chance to feast 

now fielding side can postpone the pp after 10 overs ,  if things doesnt go in their way 

[rkt.india]

11 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

two new balls for a change. 

Dude, Sachin at his peak played in ODIs where 275 was a defendable score by most teams. Now, 275 is a losing score against most teams. Huge difference.

Sachin's ODI peak ended effectively in 2003 or so. After that year, he only played a full ODI schedule once and mostly played it part-time to elongage his test career. 

In that period, Sachin  has this record:

filtered

1994-2004

255

249

22

11120

186*

48.98

12501

88.95

36

53

11

1214

128

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Australia	1994-2004	34	34	0	1888	143	55.52	1987	95.01	7	9	1	206	29
v Bangladesh	1995-2000	5	5	0	199	54	39.80	181	109.94	0	1	0	28	3
v England	1996-2003	17	17	3	631	105*	45.07	696	90.66	1	4	0	72	7
v Kenya	1996-2003	10	9	3	647	146	107.83	667	97.00	4	1	0	73	5
v Namibia	2003-2003	1	1	0	152	152	152.00	151	100.66	1	0	0	18	0
v Netherlands	2003-2003	1	1	0	52	52	52.00	72	72.22	0	1	0	7	0
v New Zealand	1994-2003	34	33	2	1325	186*	42.74	1388	95.46	4	6	3	163	20
v Pakistan	1994-2003	38	36	2	1258	118	37.00	1491	84.37	2	8	1	138	19
v South Africa	1995-2002	28	28	0	1083	122	38.67	1393	77.74	3	4	1	118	6
v Sri Lanka	1994-2003	37	35	4	1708	137	55.09	1932	88.40	7	7	1	150	18
v U.A.E.	1994-1994	1	1	0	63	63	63.00	77	81.81	0	1	0	7	1
v West Indies	1994-2002	22	22	4	895	122*	49.72	1134	78.92	2	7	4	98	2
v Zimbabwe	1996-2004	27	27	4	1219	146	53.00	1332	91.51	5	4	0	136	18
in Australia	2000-2004	11	11	0	391	93	35.54	483	80.95	0	3	0	47	1
in Bangladesh	1998-2000	10	10	0	561	141	56.10	522	107.47	1	4	0	60	11
in Canada	1996-1998	12	11	2	313	89*	34.77	467	67.02	0	3	1	31	5
in England	1996-2002	17	17	2	627	140*	41.80	692	90.60	3	0	1	67	7
in India	1994-2003	76	75	6	3916	186*	56.75	4385	89.30	14	20	3	458	37
in Kenya	2000-2000	4	4	0	171	69	42.75	205	83.41	0	1	0	21	4
in New Zealand	1994-2003	13	13	0	357	82	27.46	363	98.34	0	2	2	52	5
in Pakistan	1997-1997	3	3	0	30	21	10.00	40	75.00	0	0	0	3	1
in Singapore	1996-1999	5	5	0	253	100	50.60	285	88.77	1	1	1	25	5
in South Africa	1997-2003	25	24	0	1177	152	49.04	1341	87.77	4	5	1	129	7
in Sri Lanka	1994-2002	28	25	3	958	128	43.54	1113	86.07	4	3	1	83	12
in U.A.E.	1994-2000	35	35	3	1614	143	50.43	1746	92.43	7	6	0	155	28
in West Indies	1997-2002	6	6	2	218	65*	54.50	254	85.82	0	2	0	23	1
in Zimbabwe	1997-2003	10	10	4	534	127*	89.00	605	88.26	2	3	1	60	4

This is head and shoulders above anyone else's record that is a top order batsman. You may bring in Bevan, but Bevan would've averaged 60+ in this era too. Bevan's high average is no fluke, but it is also not comparable to a world-class top order batsman either.

Man used to come around # 5-7 ( 138 of his 196 innings), used to barely take a risk in his batting and remain not out. He was not out 50 of his 138 innings batting at 5 or lower. 
Plus, OZ top order was not weak during this period, since it had MEW, Steve Waugh, Ponting and a few other solid performers. 

As such, Bevan was amongst the best ever, if not *the* best ever runner between the wickets and stealing 1s and turning 1s into 2s.

The lower fielding standards of the 90s - slightly and not by much mind you- helped him a bit in this regard. ( since really its only England and India that have been significant improvers from the 90s fielding standards. OZ, RSA were the same standard/RSA might even have been better in the 90s, Pakistan were marginally worse in the 90s, while the Kiwis are more or less the same standard. But Sri Lanka has definitely regressed in their fielding compared to the 90s & early 2000s.)

 

But either way, i can see Bevan doing his 25*(30-35 balls) even today with greater ease, as batting in ODIs is way easier now.

Every statistical benchmark shows that ODIs are easier now than ever before to bat in, by a significant margin. So direct comparison between Tendulkar and Kohli's stats make zero sense.

Things in favor of Kohli is pretty much the sheer weight of runs scored. His dominance of his peers may be slightly better, but not by much - Nobody came close to Tendulkar's number in his years of dominance either and i should point out that the difference between Kohli and Dhoni (18%) is about the same as between Tendulkar and Mark Waugh (15%) during Tendulkar's glory period - which also actually coincides with MEW's period of greatness. 

 

Rule was changed in 2007 too when after 34 overs, teams were given another ball and sports have always evolved.  If some one sprinted 100 meter in 10 seconds in 1930 that does not make him better than Bolt now.  If you are talking about peak, let me get Kohli's peak years. because first 4 years he was always in the shadow of SRT, GG, Viru, etc and batted at 4 mostly.

 

here it is.

 

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	2008-2018	215	207	36	10199	183	59.64	10987	92.82	38	48	12	956	111	Profile
filtered	2013-2018	102	99	20	5624	160*	71.18	5707	98.54	23	24	5	520	81

[Global.Baba]

The Sachin 200 was a landmark moment in cricket itself. Change of an era. Just like 1996 Jayasuriya and Kalu started a new ODI era.

[Global.Baba]

Just now, velu said:

 

powerplays actually favored sachin .. first 15 overs are mandatory power plays which sachin got a chance to feast 

now fielding side can postpone the pp after 10 overs ,  if things doesnt go in their way 

I am sorry, let me take a step back here. What are you trying to prove? Sachin’s 200 was a bad knock?

[Global.Baba]

Sachin, Lara, Viv, Ponting-Kohli

 

Kohli has over taken Kallis,Sanga etc  in ODIs absolutely no doubt 

[velu]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Those are all-time great bowlers. Worldclass is simply someone who will walk into any actual, real world team of his time or time before.

A world-class player like Kallis is a 5th bowler for virtually any side that has ever played cricket, since you will struggle to find a 5th bowler ever playing in any team that is significantly better than Kallis, who is a regular fixture in the team AS A FIFTH BOWLER.

 

 

but i doubt kallis will walk into any team just for his bowling .. 

kallis is a world class cricket player , but not a world class bowler 

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Bevan’s average is inflated by notouts. I don’t mean that as a criticism but more to do with his finisher role much like Dhoni and Hussey.

 

This was a discussion about statistical superiority.   And Bevan performed his role as a finisher and won games for his team ... so his not outs can't be held against him.

 

7 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Also what is your time frame for these stats? Ponting and Kallis debuted in 95-96 and Sanga in the late 90s early 2000s when things were starting to change. Sachin and Lara by 1993-1994 were the best in the world when 200 was a winning score case in point the 91-92 season.

 

You can't have very similar debut dates.  But all these guys are considered contemporaries of Sachin.

 

The Kohli list is similar too.  Babar Azam debuted much later and AB earlier.

[velu]

7 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

Isn't Kallis supposed to be the best all rounder ever?

 

Come on, he was an amazing bowler. Very difficult to score runs off. Just like Hansie Cronje.

Boring maybe, but very effective.

 

he is annoying short of length bowler like razzaq .. he got to bowl afetr donald , pollack kind of bowlers done the damage though

[rkt.india]

This is what SRT played after 2004. You cannot say he played jsut for longevity.  he only started pick and chose after 2011 WC and not after 2003.

 

unfiltered	1989-2012	463	452	41	18426	200*	44.83	21367	86.23	49	96	20	2016	195	Profile
filtered	2004-2012	142	140	10	5741	200*	44.16	6725	85.36	13	32	6	694	55

[velu]

7 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

I am sorry, let me take a step back here. What are you trying to prove? Sachin’s 200 was a bad knock?

 

200 is a 200 anywhere ..

saffer bowling unit in that game was average , not worldclass 

 

edit:-

about new powerplay rules  , it might not have made any serious difference to sachin even if played with the current pp rules

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by velu

[Global.Baba]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

This was a discussion about statistical superiority.   And Bevan performed his role as a finisher and won games for his team ... so his not outs can't be held against him.

 

 

You can't have very similar debut dates.  But all these guys are considered contemporaries of Sachin.

 

The Kohli list is similar too.  Babar Azam debuted much later and AB earlier.

You can’t but you need to break down the top 3-4 by each 2 years. Ponting was no where the best in the world from 96-2000. Guys like Anwar and Mark Waugh were. Similarly Sanga was not rated till much later in his career. Kallis was never in debate as a great odi bat.

[rtmohanlal]

11 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

It also explains why he has no centuries in OZ for so long - he didnt play much in OZ before or after his peak. During his peak he played less than 12 matches - thats less than 6% of his entire peak- batting in OZ. And a 35 average in those days is the equivalent of a 40-45 average in a foreign nation today.

and he emphatically  filled that statistical blot with twin 90+ knocks in B&H finals in 2008  facing Lee, Bracken,Johnson,Clark  all 'great to very good' one day bowlers

[Global.Baba]

1 minute ago, velu said:

 

200 is a 200 anywhere ..

saffer bowling unit in that game was average , not worldclass 

 

Yes but it was the first and compared to all the 200s scores since it was the strongest attack.

 

look at the attacks of Rohit,Gayle,Sehwag and Zaman’s 200s

 

in comparison To those attack, Sachin’s knock looks at a different stratosphere all together.

 

Obviously Rohit doing it 3 times when all it takes is one bad shot after getting to 100 is what makes that feat incredible :)

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

Isn't Kallis supposed to be the best all rounder ever?

 

Come on, he was an amazing bowler. Very difficult to score runs off. Just like Hansie Cronje.

Boring maybe, but very effective.

Kallis is a highly underrated ODI bowler. Infact, he is better than most #3 pacers/#4 overall bowlers to've taken the field in ODI games.

Man was a master of good middle overs ODI bowling, stifling batsmen with 10-0-45-1 kind of spells routinely. On good wickets he'd often be the one delivering the killer blow, with random, 6-0-20-2 kind of figures. In all the years of ODI cricket, no 5th bowler except Jayasurya comes even close to matching Kallis as a 4th/5th bowler on the field.

 

When Kallis misses out on the All-time ODI team discussions, its mostly due to his relatively sedate rate of top order scoring as to the options available, with better lower order options available to make up for his bowling.

 

Lost in all this, is the simple fact that of any team that has taken the cricket field in ODIs, insert Kallis into it and he easily becomes their best 5th bowler option- with the only exception of the Sri lanka teams playing on square turners packing the side with 2 seamers and 2 spinners + Jayasurya as the 5th bowler.

[rkt.india]

20 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

No. Spoken like someone who only started seeing ODIs since the mid 90s. Till the mid 90s, the ODIs were just a faster version of test cricket with quota restriction for bowlers, thats it. As such, best averages were like in test cricket, where #3-5 position players dominated. Like Viv, Miandad, Jones, etc. 

 

Only since the field restrictions. Pitches being flat in the 90s was a whole different story than pitches being flat now. 

A flat pitch in tests in the 90s produced 1st innings scores of 400. Now it does 500 with ease. In ODIs, flat pitches produced 275-300 scores. Now flat pitches produce 350+ with ease. 

Back then there were plenty of ODIs that had 225-250 as the winning scores and gripping contests, with a few shooters that went to 175-200 scores while playing nearly whole overs. These days, 175-200 score-fests are over in 30-40 overs. In the 90s, 205 off of 50 winning vs 185 all out in 46 over kind of matches were considered bowler friendly pitches. 

An they were way more common too. 

and so didnt tenduilkar start flourishing form mid 90s, from 95 onwards in ODIs?  He also flourished once he started opening like Rohit.  Otherwise, there is not much difference between Rohit and SRT's stats till they batted in middle order.  

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, velu said:

 

200 is a 200 anywhere ..

saffer bowling unit in that game was average , not worldclass 

 

edit:-

about new powerplay rules  , it might not have made any serious difference to sachin even if played with the current pp rules

 

An ATG bowler still in his pomp, a wordclass bowler still holding his own and 3 other bowlers putting in par performances in international cricket at that time, certainly qualifies it for a worldclass attack. Maybe not all-time great attack contender, but definitely world-class.

 

[rkt.india]

1 minute ago, Global.Baba said:

Yes but it was the first and compared to all the 200s scores since it was the strongest attack.

 

look at the attacks of Rohit,Gayle,Sehwag and Zaman’s 200s

 

in comparison To those attack, Sachin’s knock looks at a different stratosphere all together.

 

Obviously Rohit doing it 3 times when all it takes is one bad shot after getting to 100 is what makes that feat incredible :)

Anwar scored 194 in 1999, SRT himself 186 and Ganguly 183 before that. Viv 189. 6 runs more does not make much of a difference.  it is just getting those more balls to play.  

[rkt.india]

41 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

Steyn and Kallis are world class bowlers.

What are you trying to say?

 

 

Kallis was a world class batsman, not bowler.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, rkt.india said:

and so didnt tenduilkar start flourishing form mid 90s, from 95 onwards in ODIs?  He also flourished once he started opening like Rohit.  Otherwise, there is not much difference between Rohit and SRT's stats till they batted in middle order.  

yes. But that is more or less irrelevant, because Tendulkar towers over every other opener of his era when average + strike rate is combined. 94-2004 or so, when Tendulkar's ODI peak happened, the only legit good opener to out-pace Tendulkar was Jayasurya. But Tendulkar's average towered over Jayasurya's at that time to the point of absurdity: 48.98 to less than 35. That is nearly a 30% differential. Those who were close to him in average- like Mark Waugh for eg, were significantly slower than him- striking at 14% slower. That is basically scoring 40 less runs per completed innings of 300 balls. 

His comparables are also mostly his opening contemporaries. Bevan is an outlier due to the abovementioned reasons and even today, he'd be averaging 50+, probably closer to 60. Its easier today to score runs by running and that was how Bevan scored more runs than anyone else in ODIs- by running around like a maniac.