Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[velu]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

An ATG bowler still in his pomp, a wordclass bowler still holding his own and 3 other bowlers putting in par performances in international cricket at that time, certainly qualifies it for a worldclass attack. Maybe not all-time great attack contender, but definitely world-class.

 

 

my standard is bit high for world class mulo bhai ..

for me that attack was below world class ..

 

now plz dont ask whats worldclass bowling unit

[Muloghonto]

Just now, rkt.india said:

Kallis was a world class batsman, not bowler.

Kallis in ODIs is  worldclass bowler.

As i said, there hasn't been a 5th bowler nearly as good as him ever, for any team, in ODIs. That fact alone, makes him a worldclass bowler, since a 5th bowler is a mandatory function in ODIs. 

[Global.Baba]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Anwar scored 194 in 1999, SRT himself 186 and Ganguly 183 before that. Viv 189. 6 runs more does not make much of a difference.  it is just getting those more balls to play.  

I don’t know how this came down to Sachin’s 200 but going back to the topic, stats etc don’t tell the whole story. Sanga and Kallis have way better stats than Jayasuriya but I rate Jayasuriya over them in that format.

[rtmohanlal]

14 minutes ago, velu said:

 

powerplays actually favored sachin .. first 15 overs are mandatory power plays which sachin got a chance to feast 

now fielding side can postpone the pp after 10 overs ,  if things doesnt go in their way 

but the swinging new ball  brought about   early dismissals even for digital scores as well. So things even out.

[rkt.india]

23 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

When Kohli started his cricketing career, there was the IPL. Easier batting pitches, batting friendly rules and that obviously gets him more in tune to scoring faster. He carried this muscle memory to his ODI games.

Sachin had no such advantages going into ODI games.

 

but Kohli was not good in IPL for first 3-4 years.  

[Muloghonto]

Just now, velu said:

 

my standard is bit high for world class mulo bhai ..

for me that attack was below world class ..

 

now plz dont ask whats worldclass bowling unit

your standard does not exist outside of few dozen matches out of 2000+ here ro there then, since combo of 1 ATG + 1 World Class + 2-3 Par bowlers are extremely rare in teams that have actually played cricket. 

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Anwar scored 194 in 1999, SRT himself 186 and Ganguly 183 before that. Viv 189. 6 runs more does not make much of a difference.  it is just getting those more balls to play.  

Irrelevant. One off Big scores here or there does not change the fact that its way easier to score runs in general today than in the mid 90s. 

[rkt.india]

2 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

but the swinging new ball  brought about   early dismissals even for digital scores as well. So things even out.

white ball is still the same.  They did not use some special ball for swing.  

[velu]

7 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Yes but it was the first and compared to all the 200s scores since it was the strongest attack.

 

look at the attacks of Rohit,Gayle,Sehwag and Zaman’s 200s

 

in comparison To those attack, Sachin’s knock looks at a different stratosphere all together.

 

Obviously Rohit doing it 3 times when all it takes is one bad shot after getting to 100 is what makes that feat incredible :)

 

sachins 200 is better than sehwag and few of rohits ..

feel rohits 264 is better than sachins though the opposition bowling was crappy 

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

but Kohli was not good in IPL for first 3-4 years.  

Irrelevant. Maryam is saying that Kohli honed his ODI skills in IPL, which is correct: 20/20 skills translate to ODIs far more than Test cricket does to ODIs in any era. Sachin didn't hit the ground running in ODIs, he is still a first and foremost test-prioritizing batsman as developed and well into his career. 

 

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

white ball is still the same.  They did not use some special ball for swing.  

White ball ODIs were a lot less common too. 

[rkt.india]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Irrelevant. One off Big scores here or there does not change the fact that its way easier to score runs in general today than in the mid 90s. 

batsmen have made it easier by being getting better with stroke play.  Batsmen are more audacious. They are just the product of their era.

[Global.Baba]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

yes. But that is more or less irrelevant, because Tendulkar towers over every other opener of his era when average + strike rate is combined. 94-2004 or so, when Tendulkar's ODI peak happened, the only legit good opener to out-pace Tendulkar was Jayasurya. But Tendulkar's average towered over Jayasurya's at that time to the point of absurdity: 48.98 to less than 35. That is nearly a 30% differential. Those who were close to him in average- like Mark Waugh for eg, were significantly slower than him- striking at 14% slower. That is basically scoring 40 less runs per completed innings of 300 balls. 

His comparables are also mostly his opening contemporaries. Bevan is an outlier due to the abovementioned reasons and even today, he'd be averaging 50+, probably closer to 60. Its easier today to score runs by running and that was how Bevan scored more runs than anyone else in ODIs- by running around like a maniac. 

To be fair to Bevan getting the team over the line in 200-250 type targets with 6 rpo asking rate in the end was an incredible feat in itself  in those days. Unfair to compare him with Hussey and Dhoni on that basis. However I rate both Hussey and Dhoni over Bevan based on the fact that they have a much more well rounded game than him.

 

When it comes to Sachin and Kohli same thing, Sachin played across a lot more eras and stood out. Kohli is the best of this generation while Sachin is of all time.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Global.Baba

[velu]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Kallis in ODIs is  worldclass bowler.

As i said, there hasn't been a 5th bowler nearly as good as him ever, for any team, in ODIs. That fact alone, makes him a worldclass bowler, since a 5th bowler is a mandatory function in ODIs. 

 

world class 5th bowler bhai .. 

probably he might have got a chance to open the bowling with us , but not for the teams like sa , aus 

[rtmohanlal]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

yes. But that is more or less irrelevant, because Tendulkar towers over every other opener of his era when average + strike rate is combined. 94-2004 or so, when Tendulkar's ODI peak happened, the only legit good opener to out-pace Tendulkar was Jayasurya. But Tendulkar's average towered over Jayasurya's at that time to the point of absurdity: 48.98 to less than 35. That is nearly a 30% differential. Those who were close to him in average- like Mark Waugh for eg, were significantly slower than him- striking at 14% slower. That is basically scoring 40 less runs per completed innings of 300 balls. 

His comparables are also mostly his opening contemporaries. Bevan is an outlier due to the abovementioned reasons and even today, he'd be averaging 50+, probably closer to 60. Its easier today to score runs by running and that was how Bevan scored more runs than anyone else in ODIs- by running around like a maniac.  

still remember some commentators speaking about the technical aspects of Bevan's running  that was so effective in enabling him to convert 1s to 2s and 2s to 3s.

[rkt.india]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

Irrelevant. Maryam is saying that Kohli honed his ODI skills in IPL, which is correct: 20/20 skills translate to ODIs far more than Test cricket does to ODIs in any era. Sachin didn't hit the ground running in ODIs, he is still a first and foremost test-prioritizing batsman as developed and well into his career. 

 

but kohli was poor in IPL so how he honed his skills in IPL?  

[velu]

16 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

your standard does not exist outside of few dozen matches out of 2000+ here ro there then, since combo of 1 ATG + 1 World Class + 2-3 Par bowlers are extremely rare in teams that have actually played cricket. 

 

australi and south africa had world class bowling unit for decades ..

 

edit:-

missed pakistan ..

 

wasim

waqar

akhtar

saqlain

razzaq / azar mohammed

 

probably the best odi bowling lineup for me ..

 

sachin bashed this lineup in 2003 wc though .. probably the best innings by sachin for me

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by velu

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

White ball ODIs were a lot less common too. 

i thin use of white ball started in early 90s itself.

[velu]

8 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

but the swinging new ball  brought about   early dismissals even for digital scores as well. So things even out.

 

as a sachin fan , i thought you guys will figure out another thing about powerplays ..

sachin favored hitting along the ground rather than going aerial 

 

looks like i watched sachin more than some of the fans here  

[Suhaan]

Just as any batsmen of 90s era i admired Sachin,

There were batsmen of huge calibre like Ponting,Lara,Kallis, Inzimam,Dravid,Kirsten,Mark Waugh, etc 

I used to put Sachin in the league of Lara,Ponting

But that innings of complete Annihilation at Centurion 2003 wc against the deadliest attack made me his fan

The type authority he showed that day against our arch enemies chasing a big

target(back in those against that attack)

He made that chase ridiculously easy for the others to follow

Would go one step further ,he rediculed one of the most dangerous attack that day

Since that day till now have seen many innings but can't find any match for that one(innings) against half as good attack like that one

 

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Suhaan