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Was Alastair Cook's 2010 Ashes performance just an aberration?

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Series averages
Series Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s Start DateAscending   Winner  
The Ashes (England in Australia), 2006/07
  5 10 0 276 116 27.60 644 42.85 1 0 0 24 0 23 Nov 2006   Australia view innings
The Ashes (Australia in England), 2009
  5 9 0 222 95 24.66 426 52.11 0 1 1 34 0 8 Jul 2009   England view innings
The Ashes (England in Australia), 2010/11
  5 7 1 766 235* 127.66 1438 53.26 3 2 0 81 1 25 Nov 2010   England view innings
The Ashes (Australia in England), 2013
  5 10 0 277 62 27.70 761 36.39 0 3 1 32 0 10 Jul 2013   England view innings
The Ashes (England in Australia), 2013/14
  5 10 0 246 72 24.60 539 45.64 0 3 1 27 0 21 Nov 2013   Australia view innings
The Ashes (Australia in England), 2015
  5 9 0 330 96 36.66 732 45.08 0 2 0 46 0 8 Jul 2015   England view innings
The Ashes (England in Australia), 2017/18
  1 1 0 2 2 2.00 10 20.00 0 0 0 0 0 23 Nov 2017   - view innings

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He has been poor in Ashes, but what you want them to mention? Cook has been a champion player over all, just like many players who have failed in certain countries or against certain opposition. He will go down in history as one of the great players of modern era, and surely the top ranked English player. So whats up with the thread, I am trying to find.

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Just now, New guy said:

Cook is just another English over-hyped player. Will reach the very good stage but never legendary which is like English players in every single sports

Overhyped for someone over 10k runs? You are kidding. He might suck now days, but he is not overhyped. No one is who has scored over 10k runs.

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5 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Overhyped for someone over 10k runs? You are kidding. He might suck now days, but he is not overhyped. No one is who has scored over 10k runs.

You play enough cricket you will eventually reach there. He used to be compared to the likes of Sachin which he never deserved. Root, Smith are way better

Edited by New guy

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20 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

That a horrific ashes record . Yet eng comms never mention it even once . Nor roots awful record in oz 

 

but with kohli 4 test in eng mention every 15 mins religiously ! 

It's poor but not horrific. Horrific is someone failing to average 13 in 10 innings and confirming himself as the worst ever batsman to set foot in UK. Worst is being outscored by Jimmy Anderson in a 5 test series, the one and only Kohli !!!! Ponting was in a similar place before he set the record right in 2008 tour of India, still his uselessness in India placed him below Lara and SRT for eternity. 

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5 minutes ago, New guy said:

You play enough cricket you will eventually reach there. He used to be compared to the likes of Sachin which he never deserved. Root, Smith are way better

But how is somene termed “overhyped” if he has 10k runs. No one with 10k runs can be called overhyped. He has performd for England a lot of times even if he might have failed against Australia. 

 

If you don’t like him being compared to Tendulkar then its fine, even I don’t like the comparison, but you should’t call a player overhyped. He is one of the modern greats who just had a slump or had poor run against Australia. 

 

Not many people get to 10k runs. He is a rare case from England and is in elite club. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Gollum said:

An opener who has scored 10k runs with more than half of them coming in England and Wales (toughest place for openers) is over rated. Yeah sure. 

 

Give me a Cook any day over the likes of Warner, Sehwag and Haydos. 

 

 

making merry against weak attacks. Aussie attack is probably the best along with SA and he struggled.

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Those figures prove why people should never go by stats alone. Australia had their worst ever bowling attack of modern times during that series Cook went big. Bollinger, Doherty, Spray gun version of Mitch Johnson, Michael beer...wtf? Cook took advantage of a tired and worn Aussie attack, all credit to him, but I don't think he can boast a good record against Australia until he performs against one of their accomplished attack. 

 

Incidently the same thing happened in 2012 vs India. Worst Indian test side of recent times and cook capatilised. The funny things is, those two series will go down as his best ever by the end of his career...says it all. 

 

 Summary- good player but NOT GREAT 

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2011-12 Aus attack was just as weak, what did our maharathis do in that tour? Our combined 11 players getting outscored by Clarke and Ponting individually in most of the tests. Cook was outstanding in 2010-11, no matter which way you put it. SRT has never scored 500+ runs in a series in his entire lifetime, Cook got 761 (albeit in 5 tests)...give credit where it is due. 

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4 hours ago, New guy said:

You play enough cricket you will eventually reach there. He used to be compared to the likes of Sachin which he never deserved. Root, Smith are way better

He won a series for England in India in 13.. What did sachin win for Indìa outside LOL Even Dhoni has 51 average  in that 07 series under Legend Dravid. Where sachin averaged in 30s:phehe: Cook has average of 80 in that 2013 series and Top scorer.

 

 

So cook  > sachin

 

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14 minutes ago, mancalledsting said:

Incidently the same thing happened in 2012 vs India. Worst Indian test side of recent times and cook capatilised. The funny things is, those two series will go down as his best ever by the end of his career...says it all. 

 

 Summary- good player but NOT GREAT 

Nah, we just got outplayed by the 2nd greatest visiting team to India since the turn of the millennium. We massacred Aussies next year and brushed away all challengers at home in the 2011-2014 period. Cook was splendid in that series, I would place that on par with Smith's 2017 series here. Only the 2007-10 Indian cricket team or the 2015-17 team would have given them a fight, probably winning by the narrowest margin imaginable. Any Indian cricket team apart from these 2 (post 2000) would get beaten by Cook and co.

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4 hours ago, Cricketics said:

But how is somene termed “overhyped” if he has 10k runs. No one with 10k runs can be called overhyped. He has performd for England a lot of times even if he might have failed against Australia. 

 

If you don’t like him being compared to Tendulkar then its fine, even I don’t like the comparison, but you should’t call a player overhyped. He is one of the modern greats who just had a slump or had poor run against Australia. 

 

Not many people get to 10k runs. He is a rare case from England and is in elite club. 

 

Rather have than overhyped guy who won a series for a england in 2013 :phehe: in India. He is more of a  impact player than his gawddd where we haven't won anything in Aus and RSA till now. 

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Even Poms don't count Cook as a GOAT contender, we guys are jealous because he is nearing Sachin's tally. Ofc Sachin will always be GOAT and Cook an ATG, stats aren't the be all end all. Is Jayawardene(11k+ runs) better than Viv and Gavaskar? Similarly Cook will never be even within touching distance of SRT, Lara, Kallis etc. 

 

But you can't downplay such an iconic player, he along with G. Smith is the best opener post SunnyG, ahead of Haydos and Viru 2 other ATGs. Among Indian ATGs I guess only Sunny, SRT, Dravid will be ahead of Cook. Vishy, Vengsarkar, Merchant, Hazare, Jimmy, VVS, Viru etc were special in their own ways but I will rate all of them below Cook. 

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56 minutes ago, Gollum said:

2011-12 Aus attack was just as weak, what did our maharathis do in that tour? Our combined 11 players getting outscored by Clarke and Ponting individually in most of the tests. Cook was outstanding in 2010-11, no matter which way you put it. SRT has never scored 500+ runs in a series in his entire lifetime, Cook got 761 (albeit in 5 tests)...give credit where it is due. 

No that was not a weak attack. Pattinson, hilfenhaus, siddle. Especially Pattinson alone made that a notch above 2010 attack.

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Cook was a very good player. For someone who plays lot of test matches in England as an opener and have that average is prolific. He is one of the best openers in modern era. Also they play lot of tests in Australia and Australia has good strike opening bowlers. Cook is the highest foreign run scorer ever in India. He has succeeded against swing, pace and spin.

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6 hours ago, mancalledsting said:

Those figures prove why people should never go by stats alone. Australia had their worst ever bowling attack of modern times during that series Cook went big. Bollinger, Doherty, Spray gun version of Mitch Johnson, Michael beer...wtf? Cook took advantage of a tired and worn Aussie attack, all credit to him, but I don't think he can boast a good record against Australia until he performs against one of their accomplished attack. 

 

Incidently the same thing happened in 2012 vs India. Worst Indian test side of recent times and cook capatilised. The funny things is, those two series will go down as his best ever by the end of his career...says it all. 

 

 Summary- good player but NOT GREAT 

Dude Hilfenhaus and Siddle were bowling at their best that time, this same Himfenhaus troubled us when he toured.

 

That English team was just playing well and Cook was playing great that time. Its not that he scored aginst Beer and al. I mean Beer did not even play all

the games.

 

If you calling Hilfenhaus and Siddle bat in 2019, then you should know these guys were llaying regularly then and Hilfenhaus was considered the best Shirld bowler then who had also the best Aussie domestic bowler.  

 

This same English side thrashed pretty much bea India too 4-0.

 

Cook was playing fantastiic and not that he was scoring against just Beer and co.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Nonbeliever said:

Only player in world cricket who is not hyped is Kohli.  Rest all from Bradman to Sachin to Smith are overrated.

Some Indian fans apparently behave like that. Guys like Amla, Cook,  you like them or not, they might not be the most liked or followed or not stulish etc, but  they are not overhyped.

 

 

This will go down as chanpions of the modern era.

 

 

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All these posts reinforce my initial points further...if stats alone were the sole determinant of a good player, BCCI should get PWC to pick their squads!

 

Anyways, if cook scoring so many runs in a single series is a feat that SRT has never been able to match...how about considering the number of 5 match test series Sachin got to play in his prime as compared to cook. Cook played for a test centred board and sachin played an ODI centred board. Have some posters stooped so low that they are comparing cook to sachin?? Yaar this is cricketing forum, not a comedy show. 

 

Cook has been lucky as for most of his career his  poor front foot fundamentals (lack of stride, weight transfer towards pitch of the ball) to full balls outside off stump have gone below the radar. Teams would not extensively prepare for him as he was not a perceived threat. Whereas Sachin and Lara types get every aspect of their techniques extensively analysed. Now the cat is out of the bag, just bowl fast and full to cook outside off stump and he can't score. See his wicket is this current test match- full ball and his body weight is back/neutral. 

 

2010/2011 Ashes bowlers 

 

Siddle

Hilfenhaus

Mitch Johnson- spray gun version 

Doherty 

Shane Watson 

Marcus North

Doug Bollinger (unfit at that time and his own captain said that he had hit the wall in Adelaide) 

Michael Beer (who played in Sydney)

Steve Smith (considered a bowler at the time) 

Ryan Harris (not yet established as a test regular and had questionable fitness at the time- twice that summer had fluid aspiration from his knee) 

 

This was comprehensively the poorest Aussie bowling attack I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

The next summer when India visited, the bowling attack had been spiced up.

 

Pattinson- he was on fire this time- bowling 90mph plus with movement- he had a phenomenal game against NZ at Brisbane just before the India series

 

Nathan Lyon (Australia's greatest ever finger spinner)

 

Mitchell Starc

 

Ryan Harris- rejuvenated version 

 

plus Siddle and hilfenhaus....spot the difference? Therefore do not make equivalence between 2011 Aus attack and 2012. If 2011 attack was so good, why had they debuted 3 front line bowlers in 2012. Even if I accepted the argument that they were the same bowling attacks, your comparing cook in his prime to Sehwag (near retirement), gambhir (post freak weird loss of form), Dravid (retired that series), VVS (retired that series), sachin (aged and near retirement). Has cook played the 50 over World Cup and IPL prior to his tour of aus in 2010- as a test only player, obviously not. All sensible Indian fans agree those players should have retired by that series...what's your point? If Viv Richards had played that same aus attack in 2010 he would have been worse than cook...does that mean cook is a better test player than viv? Please look at where players are in their career. 

 

Please don't make jokes that 2012 England team would have beaten any Indian team. That same engalnd team lost to Pakistan's spin bowling 3-0 in the UAE the season before! Are you all in agreement that that pak team was better than any Indian team? Indian test team in 2012 had ailing Viru, Sachin, Bhai, Zak and gauti (Please see how many further tests they played for India), rookie Kohli/ashwin combined with test greats like Yuvraj, ohja and Chawla. Also there as no DRS and cook would have been given out much earlier in his big innings. When you work hard you get lucky and cook got lucky. But lucky is lucky and not pure skill. 

 

Also we don't judge viv Richards career by his poor record in the late eighties, you look at the overall career. Yes Indian batsmen flopped in 2012 Australia series, but look at their career in Australia as a whole...same for cook

 

PS are there any tests series where Dhoni has a high average without scoring his classic and beloved 'NOT OUT'. I know bechara puts high price on his wicket as he is a classical test cricketer who learned batting from the MCC manual....whilst reading it upside down 

Edited by mancalledsting

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10 hours ago, adi B said:

Cook has been a failure in ashes ,he actually genuinely struggles against quality quicks but his records in subcontinent is why he is regarded as an ATG 

He has done well against SA which too has a high quality fast bowling unit. Sometimes these things happen, everyone has a bogey team. I don't remember Lara doing much against us or Dravid against SA but both were legends.

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3 minutes ago, Gollum said:

He has done well against SA which too has a high quality fast bowling unit. Sometimes these things happen, everyone has a bogey team. I don't remember Lara doing much against us or Dravid against SA but both were legends.

Dravid too apart from 2003/04 tour of Australia has not done very well there. And probably that 2003/04 attack we faced was the weakest of all bowling units our batters batted against in Australia.

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28 minutes ago, Gollum said:

He has done well against SA which too has a high quality fast bowling unit. Sometimes these things happen, everyone has a bogey team. I don't remember Lara doing much against us or Dravid against SA but both were legends.

No. He averages 35 against SA. 

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On 11/24/2017 at 6:07 PM, Gollum said:

2011-12 Aus attack was just as weak, what did our maharathis do in that tour? Our combined 11 players getting outscored by Clarke and Ponting individually in most of the tests. Cook was outstanding in 2010-11, no matter which way you put it. SRT has never scored 500+ runs in a series in his entire lifetime, Cook got 761 (albeit in 5 tests)...give credit where it is due. 

SRT scored 493 in a 4 match series. You really think one more match and he couldn't score 7 runs? In his prime we never played more than 2-3 match series. He has crossed 400 many times in a 3 match series and scored 402 in a 2 match series

Edited by New guy

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the thing is

 

England have had 3-4 big away series wins in the past 15 years.

 

2011 v Aus

2013 v India

and a couple of test series wins away to SA.

 

He has always performed in those memorable series. Gets more credit than whats due

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1 hour ago, New guy said:

SRT scored 493 in a 4 match series. You really think one more match and he couldn't score 7 runs? In his prime we never played more than 2-3 match series. He has crossed 400 many times in a 3 match series and scored 402 in a 2 match series

It will be interesting to see how many 400+ series does tendulkar have in his entire career..

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4 hours ago, G_B_ said:

the thing is

 

England have had 3-4 big away series wins in the past 15 years.

 

2011 v Aus

2013 v India

and a couple of test series wins away to SA.

 

He has always performed in those memorable series. Gets more credit than whats due

Agree- what was common in nearly all those (except first one against SA) historic series? The opposition was in disarray! 

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4 hours ago, sarcastic said:

It will be interesting to see how many 400+ series does tendulkar have in his entire career..

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Must say, I am surprised SRT does not have as many series of 400+ as I would expect from a master of his caliber. Only 7 out of so many series. Even if we make the cutoff to be 350, it will just be another 5 with a total of 12 out of nearly 40 series. 

 

Untitled2.png

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6 minutes ago, sarcastic said:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=series

Must say, I am surprised SRT does not have as many series of 400+ as I would expect from a master of his caliber. Only 7 out of so many series. Even if we make the cutoff to be 350, it will just be another 5 with a total of 12 out of nearly 40 series. 

 

Untitled2.png

Why are surprised his avg is in 50. If he scores 400+ it would have been close to 70. 

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16 minutes ago, gattaca said:

Why are surprised his avg is in 50. If he scores 400+ it would have been close to 70. 

There is no direct link between 400+ and average of 70. But yes, if a batsman as consistent as SRT has many 400+ scores, he will have an average of 70+. 

I am stating that although SRT was very very consistent in a long career, he did not have heaving scoring series like some other great batsmen seemed to have although those others are not that consistent as SRT was. 

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36 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

7. Same as Dravid.

Sehwag - 4

VVS - 3

Ganguly - 1

Gavaskar - 10 :adore:(6 back to back 400+ series between 77/78 and 79/80.

 

 

There are many West Indian umpires in USA who umpire in the leagues here and almost all of them have the most respect for two guys - Richard Hadlee and Sunil Gavaskar. These guys have watched their Caribbean heros play live in 70s-80s and always have no shame in accepting that it was hard to to see their bowlers get Gavaskar out.

 

Must have been one classy batsman. 

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2 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

There are many West Indian umpires in USA who umpire in the leagues here and almost all of them have the most respect for two guys - Richard Hadlee and Sunil Gavaskar. These guys have watched their Caribbean heros play live in 70s-80s and always have no shame in accepting that it was hard to to see their bowlers get Gavaskar out.

 

Must have been one classy batsman. 

He was a legend alright. Best Test opener in the last 50 years AFAIC.

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1 hour ago, Cricketics said:

There are many West Indian umpires in USA who umpire in the leagues here and almost all of them have the most respect for two guys - Richard Hadlee and Sunil Gavaskar. These guys have watched their Caribbean heros play live in 70s-80s and always have no shame in accepting that it was hard to to see their bowlers get Gavaskar out.

 

Must have been one classy batsman. 

Gavaskar is the classic case of misleading stats against WI. 

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1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Gavaskar is the classic case of misleading stats against WI. 

This has nothing to do with stats. This is just about how Gavaskar built his reputation by being a tough cricketer.

 

Gavaskar was a tough competitor, who was well respected for his game among the Caribbean players and spectators just because he used to not give away his wicket easily compared to other great players who weren’t as prepared to tackle Windies bowlers of that era.

 

 

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On 11/24/2017 at 3:41 AM, Gollum said:

An opener who has scored 10k runs with more than half of them coming in England and Wales (toughest place for openers) is over rated. Yeah sure. 

 

Give me a Cook any day over the likes of Warner, Sehwag and Haydos. 

 

 

cook has done badly away in general - avg of 46 in Oz because of one daddy series, 34 in NZ, 31 in SA (quite bad). Eng may be hard for openers but at least he is used to it. the point I'm trying to make is that ATG openers are much rarer than ATG middle order bats. After Hutton, I don't know if anyone true ATG opener exists, except Sunny G I guess.

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On 11/26/2017 at 9:10 AM, Cricketics said:

This has nothing to do with stats. This is just about how Gavaskar built his reputation by being a tough cricketer.

 

Gavaskar was a tough competitor, who was well respected for his game among the Caribbean players and spectators just because he used to not give away his wicket easily compared to other great players who weren’t as prepared to tackle Windies bowlers of that era.

 

 

most times, Gavaskar did not even play against the best WI fast bowlers. The series he played, he failed.

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