Sachin Tendulkar vs Steve Smith - Comparative Analysis

[mishra]

5 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Fair enough. 

Exactly, There you go. Just did a google to check current status. ECB trying its best to ensure justice is done in "Compensation to victim".  And thats the mark of pottential great player. Board will go any length. Like BCCI for our Kohli

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/28/england-ben-stokes-ashes-not-charged-cricket-new-zealand

Quote

England could fast-track Ben Stokes into Ashes side if he is not charged by police

England may fast-track Ben Stokes into the Ashes if he avoids police charges. He appears set to play for Canterbury Kings in New Zealand’s Ford Trophy this weekend, while his England team-mates are contesting the second Ashes Test with Australia in Adelaide.

 

[jalebi_bhai]

5 minutes ago, mishra said:

Exactly, There you go. Just did a google to check current status. ECB trying its best to ensure justice is done in "Compensation to victim".  And thats the mark of pottential great player. Board will go any length. Like BCCI for our Kohli

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/28/england-ben-stokes-ashes-not-charged-cricket-new-zealand

 

Hardly surprising. He could've been the difference in the first test.

[cricketpitch]

9 hours ago, jalebi_bhai said:

I'm not questioning those players' greatness. Rather, I'm questioning your conclusions on them being collectively better than the bowlers of this era. It's definitely a matter of discussion. In addition to pitches being more conducive to bowling in the 90s, the game has evolved in other ways, particularly with regards to equipment and technology, that have tilted the balance in batsmen's favour. The bowlers of this era do not have the luxury of bowling on the pitches of the 90s.  

 

Let me take a specific example here since you mentioned the West Indies in one of your previous posts. The pitches in the Caribbean used to be hard and bouncy in the 90s as compared to the Caribbean pitches nowadays that are much slower in nature. In lieu of such developments, would the likes of Walsh, Ambrose and Bishop have such stellar records in the current era? I don't think it's a foregone conclusion and it's definitely a question worth asking.  

 

Ok, fair point. Numbers don't give us the whole picture. So can/should we not compare cricketers from different eras at all?

 

If comparing cricketers across different eras is not on, then I don't think we should bother calling any player an 'All Time Great'. Let us alter the nomenclature if we are not going to entertain cross era comparisons. 

There is no single all time great. Viv Richards, Sachin Tendulkar, Sunil Gavaskar, Glenn McGrath, Brian Lara, Shane Warne, Muttaih Muralitharan are all considered ATG. They are considered ATG not because they were compared to people from different eras but by what they achieved on the field during their playing time. It is also determined by watching a lot of cricket and see how a player actually plays and handles tough situations and conditions he encounters during his playing time. That is how you determine someone is an ATG or not. If averages are the only method to determine an ATG, anyone who averages 50 in tests can be called ATG. That is not how it is determined. Smith might end up as ATG not because he averages 60 in tests but because he plays innings like the one he did at the Gabba. That's what ATG's are made of. If we consider only averages, even Thilan Samaraweera or Maheela Jayawardane can be called ATG as well. Were these two players better than the Chappell brothers, David Gower, Clive Lloyd, Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes, Vishwanath et all? Just based on average? Why don't we call Matthew Hayden an ATG while he averages same a Sunil Gavaskar? Think about it and you will get your answer.

[Rasgulla]

On 26/11/2017 at 4:46 PM, putrevus said:

You are talking as if consistency or that long time is easy.Smith/Kohli are not even half way to Sachin's playing career.

 

Smith will have to take 100 births to match the excitement which Sachin brought.Sachin had his short comings but make no mistake that guy is  the greatest batsman after Bradman to have played this game.

They are breaking his records in 1/4 matches sachin played.. that's the point.... Smith will never match sachin kind of excitement cause AUS is developed country doesn't have these 3rd class extreme level of fanboys in 90s like India had for cricketers or film actors. It decreased a lot compared to 90s..JUST A FACT and no he is not the Grestest after bradman no where near close.. if it's the list of match winners. He wouldn't even make top 10 list. 

[Jimmy Cliff]

1 hour ago, Rasgulla said:

They are breaking his records in 1/4 matches sachin played.. that's the point.... Smith will never match sachin kind of excitement cause AUS is developed country doesn't have these 3rd class extreme level of fanboys in 90s like India had for cricketers or film actors. It decreased a lot compared to 90s..JUST A FACT and no he is not the Grestest after bradman no where near close.. if it's the list of match winners. He wouldn't even make top 10 list. 

We still have those in India. These days they are arguing for Dhoni to be included in the T20I side even though he has 1 50 and 0 MOTM awards in 80 odd games. Sad.

[rkt.india]

6 hours ago, cricketpitch said:

There is no single all time great. Viv Richards, Sachin Tendulkar, Sunil Gavaskar, Glenn McGrath, Brian Lara, Shane Warne, Muttaih Muralitharan are all considered ATG. They are considered ATG not because they were compared to people from different eras but by what they achieved on the field during their playing time. It is also determined by watching a lot of cricket and see how a player actually plays and handles tough situations and conditions he encounters during his playing time. That is how you determine someone is an ATG or not. If averages are the only method to determine an ATG, anyone who averages 50 in tests can be called ATG. That is not how it is determined. Smith might end up as ATG not because he averages 60 in tests but because he plays innings like the one he did at the Gabba. That's what ATG's are made of. If we consider only averages, even Thilan Samaraweera or Maheela Jayawardane can be called ATG as well. Were these two players better than the Chappell brothers, David Gower, Clive Lloyd, Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes, Vishwanath et all? Just based on average? Why don't we call Matthew Hayden an ATG while he averages same a Sunil Gavaskar? Think about it and you will get your answer.

Matthew Hayden is certainly an ATG. Regarding Gabba, I dont think Gabba inning was anything special. Looked special because others failed and it was his home conditions on very much a flat pitch.

[cricketpitch]

12 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Matthew Hayden is certainly an ATG. Regarding Gabba, I dont think Gabba inning was anything special. Looked special because others failed and it was his home conditions on very much a flat pitch.

We are not talking about the quality of the innings. Please read again. It does not matter what pitch the innings comes in. Steven Smith showed lots of mental resolve to play that innings. If he had gotten out at that time, England would have ended up with a Sizeable lead and the game could have been different. He dragged his team from 84/4 to 20 odd runs lead. England tried to frustrate him but he still remained unfazed. That is what is called a great innings. It is strange that you think that the Gabba innings wasn't special.

[rkt.india]

35 minutes ago, cricketpitch said:

We are not talking about the quality of the innings. Please read again. It does not matter what pitch the innings comes in. Steven Smith showed lots of mental resolve to play that innings. If he had gotten out at that time, England would have ended up with a Sizeable lead and the game could have been different. He dragged his team from 84/4 to 20 odd runs lead. England tried to frustrate him but he still remained unfazed. That is what is called a great innings. It is strange that you think that the Gabba innings wasn't special.

So same yardstick should be for other players too. When I talk about Ashwin how he scored a 100 batting at 6 when we were 125/5 in WI on not so much of a flat pitch. that was as good an innings as any alrounder could play in that situation.

Edited November 29, 2017 by rkt.india

[cricketpitch]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

So same yardstick should be for other players too. When I talk about Ashwin how he scored a 100 batting at 6 when we were 125/5 in WI on not so much of a flat pitch. that was as good an innings as any alrounder could play in that situation.

Who said it was not a good innings? Ashwin's 100 in that game was a very good innings which helped India to good total. Even though a physical game, cricket is played between the ears too. The innings like the one Smith played in extreme pressure situation needs to be lauded. Same with Ashwin, even though the opposition was not great, that innings was crucial for India. Kapil's 175 no is still talked about even now even though it was played against Zimbabwe as it came when India were tottering at 17/5. If Kapil had gotten out, India would have faced their most embarrassing defeats in a long time. 

[mishra]

5 hours ago, Rasgulla said:

They are breaking his records in 1/4 matches sachin played.. that's the point.... Smith will never match sachin kind of excitement cause AUS is developed country doesn't have these 3rd class extreme level of fanboys in 90s like India had for cricketers or film actors. It decreased a lot compared to 90s..JUST A FACT and no he is not the Grestest after bradman no where near close.. if it's the list of match winners. He wouldn't even make top 10 list. 

What is this developed country mentality is? Care to explain? Last time i chkd, There is still same idol worshipping  for football superstars in allmost every western country. 

How is indian attitude/behaviour different?

[Rasgulla]

10 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

We still have those in India. These days they are arguing for Dhoni to be included in the T20I side even though he has 1 50 and 0 MOTM awards in 80 odd games. Sad.

You ll even ask for Dhawan to pick up 5er one day... He doesn't get to face much balls in T20 to make a 50.. check average no. Of balls he faced in those 80 odd games( which is around 13). rehne de.. Mighty as well ask why kohli could never get a 100 when people like shehzad has it  Personal milestones are long gone when sachin was kicked out in 2012. Rather win matches with odd 20 or 30 than scoring a 100 or 50 and lose India matches like he did in past..

[Jimmy Cliff]

43 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

You ll even ask for Dhawan to pick up 5er one day... He doesn't get to face much balls in T20 to make a 50.. check average no. Of balls he faced in those 80 odd games( which is around 13). rehne de.. Mighty as well ask why kohli could never get a 100 when people like shehzad has it  

So expecting Dhoni to make a T20I 50 is comparable to Dhawan taking a 5-fer? Fascinating. As for the average no. of balls he faces, that is indeed on the lower side, but he's had 22 innings where he's faced 20 balls or more, that's enough opportunities to score a handful of 50s and yet he's only scored 1.

 

59 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Personal milestones are long gone when sachin was kicked out in 2012. Rather win matches with odd 20 or 30 than scoring a 100 or 50 and lose India matches like he did in past..

Well if he were actually winning matches with quickfire 20s and 30s, no one would be complaining. The problem is he has barely won any (his best knocks in T20Is were way back in the 2007 WC, that too in a supporting role to the likes of Rohit and Utthappa). Not too long ago, someone pointed out that when he has scored 25+ while chasing, India have lost 7 out of 8 times! Btw, I see you haven't responded to his 0 MOTMs in 80 odd games. Is it reasonable to expect MSD to be the MOTM in an Indian win in a decade long career(as even the likes of Karthik and Badrinath have done it) or is it as likely as Kohli taking a couple of hat tricks or something?

[Rasgulla]

36 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

So expecting Dhoni to make a T20I 50 is comparable to Dhawan taking a 5-fer? Fascinating. As for the average no. of balls he faces, that is indeed on the lower side, but he's had 22 innings where he's faced 20 balls or more, that's enough opportunities to score a handful of 50s and yet he's only scored 1.

Indeed especially for a player who bats at 6 in a 20 over game who faces 13 balls in average. When he was promoted #4 he has his first 50 alone.. Like I said he plays for team unlike somebody who only cares about his personal milestones. 

 

42 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Well if he were actually winning matches with quickfire 20s and 30s, no one would be complaining. The problem is he has barely won any (his best knocks in T20Is were way back in the 2007 WC, that too in a supporting role to the likes of Rohit and Utthappa). Not too long ago, someone pointed out that when he has scored 25+ while chasing, India have lost 7 out of 8 times! Btw, I see you haven't responded to his 0 MOTMs in 80 odd games. Is it reasonable to expect MSD to be the MOTM in an Indian win in a decade long career(as even the likes of Karthik and Badrinath have done it) or is it as likely as Kohli taking a couple of hat tricks or something?

Selective stats from people with agenda..Might as well check his 100s in Odis for winning matches which would be  far less . They came from situations when India were 23-5 ...like the match against pak in 2013  and aus.. You expect him to win matches like that with tail on other side. Cant argue with something like that. MOM ? Other people contributions are overlooked like Gambhir innings in 2011 final when Dhoni was given MOM.. Since Gambhir didn't win it he is no good that day according to you since he for no MOM ? Karthik and bardinath has done it from no.6 ? Stats would be great to back up your argument. You talk lot of milestone game play which was fed to you by sachin for all those years unlike modern day era where selfless players try to hit even on 49 not taking a single off last ball to get to their milestones. Thats the difference between players like Kohli and Dhoni compared to sachin. 

[Jimmy Cliff]

26 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Indeed especially for a player who bats at 6 in a 20 over game who faces 13 balls in average. When he was promoted #4 he has his first 50 alone.. Like I said he plays for team unlike somebody who only cares about his personal milestones. 

He has batted at 3, 4 and 5 for half of his T20I career (36 innings out of 72) with only 1 50. Not good enough I am afraid .  Even the likes of Utthappa managed a 50+ score in 1/3rd of the innings

 

42 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Like I said he plays for team unlike somebody who only cares about his personal milestones.

If he is playing for the team by scoring 1 50+ score in 36 innings at 3-5 with 0 MOTMs, he isn't doing a particularly good job of it.

 

36 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Selective stats from people with agenda..Might as well check his 100s in Odis for winning matches which would be  far less . They came from situations when India were 23-5 ...like the match against pak in 2013  and aus.. You expect him to win matches like that with tail on other side. Cant argue with something like that.

His ODI performances are irrelevant to this discussion. I suggest sticking to T20Is for the time being.

 

43 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Other people contributions are overlooked like Gambhir innings in 2011 final when Dhoni was given MOM.. Since Gambhir didn't win it he is no good that day according to you since he for no MOM ?

No idea what Gambhir's 97 in the WC final has to do with Dhoni's poor T20 record. Are you suggesting Dhoni has performances in T20Is comparable to Gambhir's 97? I only recall him scoring 6(10) and 4(7) in 2 T20WC finals. If I have missed out on any of his great T20 final performances, please let me know.

 

47 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Karthik and bardinath has done it from no.6 ? Stats would be great to back up your argument.

Karthik has done it batting at no.5 in a game where Dhoni batted at 4 and got out for a duck . Badrinath did it in his only game batting at 4. Dhoni has batted 22 times at 5 and 14 times at 3 and 4 put together and we are still waiting for a MOTM performance from him.

 

59 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

You talk lot of milestone game play which was fed to you by sachin for all those years unlike modern day era where selfless players try to hit even on 49 not taking a single off last ball to get to their milestones. Thats the difference between players like Kohli and Dhoni compared to sachin.

Kohli beech mein kahaan se aa gaya? Kohli is a serial match-winner in T20Is who wins matches for fun and has more MOTM awards than just about anyone in T20Is. I have no idea how he is being paired with a guy who is yet to deliver a MOTM worthy performance after playing for more than a decade. It's almost like pairing SRT and Mongia together in ODIs.

[Laaloo]

Geez what a pathetic troll. Cant even troll properly. Time to go back to school.

[Rasgulla]

56 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

He has batted at 3, 4 and 5 for half of his T20I career (36 innings out of 72) with only 1 50. Not good enough I am afraid .  Even the likes of Utthappa managed a 50+ score in

4 innings at no.3 ...10 innings at no.4 with 148 SR.. 6 times he was not out...He batted even #7 9 times. Rest #5#6. Its a funny comparison to Uttapata who was no.3 batsmen and never played at #5 or #6. You are trying very hard now. 

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

No idea what Gambhir's 97 in the WC final has to do with Dhoni's poor T20 record. Are you suggesting Dhoni has performances in T20Is comparable to Gambhir's 97? 

It was reply to your obsession with MOMs.. Either you missed the point or trying to deliberately ignore it. MOMs doesn't show other peoples contribution in the match.. only one of them can be choosen. 

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11913/game/647251/India-vs-Australia-2nd-ODI-australia-tour-of-india-2013-14

 

This match for example... Virat 52 ball 100 was equally important to Rohit tuk tuk 141.. Rohit was given man of the match... On many occasions players have missed out MOMs like that. Won't look much into it.

 

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Karthik has done it batting at no.5 in a game where Dhoni batted at 4 and got out for a duck . Badrinath did it in his only game batting at 4. Dhoni has batted 22 times at 5 and 14 times at 3 and 4 put together and we are still waiting for a MOTM performance from him.

Dhoni batted at #4 and has a 50 but karthik doesn't.. your point ? Since its about milestone virus for you.. I am not sure what your last point even is..

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Kohli beech mein kahaan se aa gaya? Kohli is a serial match-winner in T20Is who wins matches for fun and has more MOTM awards than just about anyone in T20Is. I have no idea how he is being paired with a guy who is yet to deliver a MOTM worthy performance after playing for more than a decade. It's almost like pairing SRT and Mongia together in ODIs

Missed main point again.. You are still stuck on your MOMs and Milestones that you can't see anything above that..  Indian players these days are selfless unlike sachin where he used to take 10 balls to get that 1 run for his 50 or 100.. That's the point and on many occasions Dhoni and Kohli got out playing big shot unlike  sachin who used to take his time.. slowly and slowly and slowly and I even remember a match where he took a run of last ball of the innings to complete his 100 where he didn't even try to hit the ball for six or 4 so that he could complete his 100 and ofcourse his team ended up losing that match like always... once again not talking about MOM its about being selfless which sachin fans ll never understand... 

 

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

It's almost like pairing SRT and Mongia together in ODIs.

Going by your logic it won't be wrong... you can compare a guy who opened and batted at #3 to a guy who batted to #6 and #7..  Prob mongia has better stats than sachin if proper indepth research was done.. Mongia has to keep and bat where as  sachin is a very slow fielder who used to go to dressing rooms and sent in subs to field. Lets not forget he a flop in t20s and I remember a match in england where Dravid hit 3 666s where sachin was below average as always in T20s. 

[Rasgulla]

GOAT smith winning this poll by large margin... If we take off votes of those extreme sachin chamchas like laaloo maniac lanni and co. in that poll... Not a shock always had faith in neutruals to speak out the truth. 

 

So we are convinced how smith is a better player.. Since it was Indian forum probably few of us felt bad for sachin and voted. If it was done on social networking sites.. Smith would be leading by large margin. 

 

All hail king Smith..  Always delivers when it matters @velu you know he has 50*+ in world cup finals 2015 as well!!

 

[velu]

1 hour ago, Rasgulla said:

GOAT smith winning this poll by large margin... If we take off votes of those extreme sachin chamchas like laaloo maniac lanni and co. in that poll... Not a shock always had faith in neutruals to speak out the truth. 

 

So we are convinced how smith is a better player.. Since it was Indian forum probably few of us felt bad for sachin and voted. If it was done on social networking sites.. Smith would be leading by large margin. 

 

All hail king Smith..  Always delivers when it matters @velu you know he has 50*+ in world cup finals 2015 as well!!

 

captain cool got a 50 in his only game .. and stayed not out as well

 

[Rasgulla]

14 minutes ago, velu said:

captain cool got a 50 in his only game .. and stayed not out as well

 

Who can forget that WC winning innings... And then we got.... You know the rest 

[mishra]

44 minutes ago, velu said:

captain cool got a 50 in his only game .. and stayed not out as well

 

+1. That was extreme situation. No one is cooler then him