Why have Indian pacers, over the decades, bowled so few deliveries on the the off-stump to 5th stump lines ?

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

They don't bowl on leg intentionally.

 

Bumrah is a very accurate bowler ... can bowl perfect yorkers under pressure, with the batsman attacking

 

When he bowls 30% or more deliveries on the leg stump, it is a deliberate attempt to dry up runs or bowl that magical delivery.

Edited December 10, 2017 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

because they are used to attack the stumps on Indian pitches in search of LBW and bowled.  Indian pitches mostly lack bounce and attacking 5th stump does not reward them as edges do not carry.

[maniac]

If the ball is not reversing and you are going for an inswinging yorker 

 

or

 

if the ball is seaming and swinging  like crazy and you are going for a leg cutter or outswinging delivery 

 

are  the only 2 instances when a bowler can be excused for drifting on a leg stump line.

 

apart from this unless you have brain damage you bowl the offstump or 4th stump line 10/10

times....basic cricket 101.

 

Look at Umesh Yadav he tries for that booming outswinger too many times and hence drifts on the pads regularly...you need to account for cricketing acumen too at times. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by maniac

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

because they are used to attack the stumps on Indian pitches in search of LBW and bowled.  Indian pitches mostly lack bounce and attacking 5th stump does not reward them as edges do not carry.

So ....

 

why so many 7th stump to 10th stump deliveries  which the batters can leave or slash viciously  ?  Why are batsmen not made to play enough.

 

why so few top of off-stump and off-stump line deliveries  ?

 

why have older Pakistani pacers , used to bowling on similar surfaces, bowled a higher % of off-stump to 5th stump deliveries compared to us  ?  Check Imran, Akram, Asif, Aqib, Shoaib's lines.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by express bowling

[bhakum20]

Manjrekar thinks the returns will be low even if they bowl on offstump line due to our catching:

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/21743273/why-shami-yadav-need-change-their-line

 

Seeing our recent slip catching makes me want to agree with him.

 

Can imagine the quandary of the bowling coach:

 

Instructs to bowl on middle: bowler strays to legside and gives away boundaries

 

Tells them to bowl in the ‘channel’: slips drop dollies

[mishra]

On 12/11/2017 at 6:29 AM, express bowling said:

So ....

 

why so many 7th stump to 10th stump deliveries  which the batters can leave or slash viciously  ?  Why are batsmen not made to play enough.

 

why so few top of off-stump and off-stump line deliveries  ?

 

why have older Pakistani pacers , used to bowling on similar surfaces, bowled a higher % of off-stump to 5th stump deliveries compared to us  ?  Check Imran, Akram, Asif, Aqib, Shoaib's lines.

 

 

I think I know few things about pace bowling and why ball drifts to middle stump or leg stump. Its very simple. Try it in the nets. But rest requires loads of practice and may be another guy who can tell you too.

 

1. As a righthand bowler, you must know that, everytime you ball, Your ball if it pitches outside offstump, it will naturally drift towards batsmans pads.

2. It will drift further depending upon seam position and landing.

3. It will drift even further if head falls away from umpire. Like Kapil paaji.

 

So how to reverse it and get rid of this drifting. i.e. ball on off stump or 4th stump and ball goes away, stays straight or just drift slightly on off stump. or increase the accuracy. So you will sacrifice your speed for few days but once perfected you can bowl at same speed

 

1. Right at release point you must watch the spot where ball is going to land.

2. Bowl from a line close to stump. Too far off stump and ball is actually bowled as angled in. Everyone would have observed allmost every bowler if he has bowled on 6th/7th stump ball goes further

3. Keep your head straight. at the point of release.

 

If you do above three, its just matter of seam position that will determine which way ball goes past landing.

 

There is some swinging technique too. Its slightly more complicated to write. Even above three is easy said than done. In my team I have tried to help a lot of bowlers and most havent achieved it. It requires a lot of practice. TV commentators and youtube vides dont help much. You require a coach for it. 2 month session with someone who understand the dynamics of ball and I am certain all our bowlers can achieve it.

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by mishra

[mishra]

Only caveat I will add to above it, once ball gets slightly wet cos of drizzle, I dont get the seam movement anymore.

[express bowling]

6 hours ago, mishra said:

I think I know few things about pace bowling and why ball drifts to middle stump or leg stump. Its very simple. Try it in the nets. But rest requires loads of practice and may be another guy who can tell you too.

 

1. As a righthand bowler, you must know that, everytime you ball, Your ball if it pitches outside offstump, it will naturally drift towards batsmans pads.

2. It will drift further depending upon seam position and landing.

3. It will drift even further if head falls away from umpire. Like Kapil paaji.

 

So how to reverse it and get rid of this drifting. i.e. ball on off stump or 4th stump and ball goes away, stays straight or just drift slightly on off stump. or increase the accuracy. So you will sacrifice your speed for few days but once perfected you can bowl at same speed

 

1. Right at release point you must watch the spot where ball is going to land.

2. Bowl from a line close to stump. Too far off stump and ball is actually bowled as angled in. Everyone would have observed allmost every bowler if he has bowled on 6th/7th stump ball goes further

3. Keep your head straight. at the point of release.

 

If you do above three, its just matter of seam position that will determine which way ball goes past landing.

 

There is some swinging technique too. Its slightly more complicated to write. Even above three is easy said than done. In my team I have tried to help a lot of bowlers and most havent achieved it. It requires a lot of practice. TV commentators and youtube vides dont help much. You require a coach for it. 2 month session with someone who understand the dynamics of ball and I am certain all our bowlers can achieve it.

 

 

 

What you have discussed above are techniques that rookie pacers should use to control their lines.

 

This thread is about the best pacers from India, many of whom have been playing international cricket for 3, 5 or even 10 years. Basically the highest level pacers in our country.

 

When they don't bowl attacking or wicket-taking lines, it is often a matter of trying more complicated or defensive strategies ........ or defensive field placement by captains .......  or lack of mental discipline to try something over and over again without instant gratification. All this is the result of lack of pace bowling culture in our country till say 2012.

 

The Youtube videos were to showcase the lines that are actually getting wickets.

 

p.s - I was not talking about myself. When I played cricket, I did not have much problems controlling bowling lines.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by express bowling

[mishra]

13 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

What you have discussed above are techniques that rookie pacers should use to control their lines.

 

This thread is about the best pacers from India, many of whom have been playing international cricket for 3, 5 or even 10 years. Basically the highest level pacers in our country.

 

When they don't bowl attacking or wicket-taking lines, it is often a matter of trying more complicated or defensive strategies ........ or defensive field placement by captains .......  or lack of mental discipline to try something over and over again without instant gratification. All this is the result of lack of pace bowling culture in our country till say 2012.

 

The Youtube videos were to showcase the lines that are actually getting wickets.

 

p.s - I was not talking about myself. When I played cricket, I did not have much problems controlling bowling lines.

 

 

 

Nahi Sir. If a batsman doesnt sees the ball at the time of impact with bat, Its regarded as cardinal sin. Indian team management will immediately chuck him out. However our pacers are totally driven by speed The points I made was one of the very basic mistakes our pacers do. Let me take each one individually.
1. Shami: His head goes two feet away from body. So he can not bowl and keep on offstump. Infact if he bowls abit open chested, He will have even better high arm and absolutely lethal. Also notice his eyes in below video

2. Umesh: He doesn't see the landing point at time of delivery. I saw it was improving under Kumble but, It has gone back to same old. So never gonna be accurate

3. Ishant: His action is very smooth. But he takes eyes off the landing area quite often. But biggest problem is he bowls 10 feet away from stump and in a straigt line. So ball stays 10 feet away from off stump. He needs to come closer to stump

4. Bhumrah: Less said is better. He is everywhere.

 

Now compare that with ball release point of say Sultan of swing like Akram or Kapil paaji or Srinath. image below from Akram.

 

Akram: His bowling hand shoulder is not blocking his view to landing point and His head used to move depending on what he wanted to achieve

 

Kapil: Shoulder is not blocking the view. If am am to guess, Right at jump he would have seen the landing spot and then swung it in. Right from 4th stump to middle stump. He used to bowl a lot fuller hence more often then not his deliveries would have crashed on off/middle.

 

 

Now why this happens. Because our pacers arent picked at very young age. Identify them at 9-10 years age and work with them. I played a lot of cricket in my prime age in galli mohalla and then in local clubs of England. But once my body started giving up, I went back to gym. But I knew thats not enough. So for past 4-5 years I have been executing and researching with the cricket ball in nets. And have figured out exactly how to get bana swing even at 60-65 mph. But i cant bowl them more than 2-3 overs as my back goes.

 

PS: Clouderson is completely different beast in swinging conditions. He does something which not many can do with his guiding fingers right at release point (Not capturable even with cameras). Its absolutely unique. Its his trade secret. I will leave it that way

Edited December 13, 2017 by mishra

[express bowling]

@mishra

 

Interesting post above.  Agree with the points regarding Akram, Kapil, Ishant and Umesh.

 

However, Bumrah is one of the most accurate bowlers we have despite his action.

 

Shami's action has changed after his knee operation and he is more chest on now. The video above has picked different parts of his run-up and action from different phases of his career.  Yes, his head falls away still but he is our 2nd most accurate test bowler we have now and can bowl quite accurately when he wants.

 

Action, technique etc. are important .... but sufficient practice can bring about effectiveness of a player inspite of shortcomings in technique.  Plus, there is a matter of personal comfort.  Akram once said that his grip was totally wrong and his coach had told him that he will never be a swing bowler with that grip, but he did. Who would have believed 5 years ago that Steve Smith will average 62 after 56 tests, batting with that technique. 

 

Team India pacers need to want to bowl wicket-taking lines, practice doing this hard and they will do it much better than they are doing now, despite technical issues.

Edited December 14, 2017 by express bowling

[mishra]

@express bowlingI can understand the angle you are putting to. Yes, I agree,  few can understand text book bowling and sparingly few can implement it after understanding.

 

But my point is different. I am blaming the roots. Take the case of South African, Australian, English, Jamaican bowlers. Not one of them will show the short comings which can be attributed to coaching. India is a country of over billion cricket loving nations, Hence we will keep on getting raw talents who will defy and come trumps against all odds (example Bhumrah).

 

Our academies, state coaches and even national coaches who arent even arsed about catching/fixing such lil things . How do you hope them to go a step ahead and improve our bowlers. If I may draw a analogy, I will say its Sarakari Baboo attitude.

 

May be, there is a silver lining like the case of Pandya, Zak, Bhuvi, Nehra where you could see that  someone is doing things right.

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, mishra said:

@express bowlingI can understand the angle you are putting to. Yes, I agree,  few can understand text book bowling and sparingly few can implement it after understanding.

 

But my point is different. I am blaming the roots. Take the case of South African, Australian, English, Jamaican bowlers. Not one of them will show the short comings which can be attributed to coaching. India is a country of over billion cricket loving nations, Hence we will keep on getting raw talents who will defy and come trumps against all odds (example Bhumrah).

 

Our academies, state coaches and even national coaches who arent even arsed about catching/fixing such lil things . How do you hope them to go a step ahead and improve our bowlers. If I may draw a analogy, I will say its Sarakari Baboo attitude.

 

May be, there is a silver lining like the case of Pandya, Zak, Bhuvi, Nehra where you could see that  someone is doing things right.

Overall, you make a very valid point about bad coaching fundamentals at the lower level in India, when it comes to pace bowling.  Its the polar opposite when it comes to batting, where the culture of proper batting technique is widespread and deeply ingrained.  The knowledge levels on the pace bowling front are quite poor in comparison.  Particularly at the lower levels.  And when it comes to pace bowling, misinformation and wrong guidance can not only prevent the proper blossoming of talent, it can lead to injuries and pre-mature end of careers. 

 

The problem is not just at the lower levels either - look at Irfan Pathan - he got completely screwed up mid-career, when he followed the wrong path to increase his pace.   The objective was correct, but his methods were flawed, and the results are there for all to see.  Irfan had the potential to be a legit 2-skill 10 year player for us.  But it was not to be.

 

 

[rkt.india]

21 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

The problem is not just at the lower levels either - look at Irfan Pathan - he got completely screwed up mid-career, when he followed the wrong path to increase his pace.   The objective was correct, but his methods were flawed, and the results are there for all to see.  Irfan had the potential to be a legit 2-skill 10 year player for us.  But it was not to be.

 

 

Irfan is a wrong example.  He had enough pace when he debuted around 135. he did not lost his way because he wanted to increase pace. he suffered a back injury around 2005 and after that changed his action form side-on to semi-side-on front on.  IN that process, he lost his pace, was bowling 125K. he still had swing but pace wasn't there. 

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Irfan is a wrong example.  He had enough pace when he debuted around 135. he did not lost his way because he wanted to increase pace. he suffered a back injury around 2005 and after that changed his action form side-on to semi-side-on front on.  IN that process, he lost his pace, was bowling 125K. he still had swing but pace wasn't there. 

Yes, but with better guidance regarding training, rehab, and action changes, he could have potentially done better. The raw skill and athleticism was there.   And the guy was a decent bat too.  

[Rightarmfast]

There are various reasons, however tbh, India doesnt have a sports culture. Zaheer Khan started playing cricket when he was well over 16-17 I think. So did Venky Prasad and Agarkar. I think even lads like Umesh Yadav picked up cricket late in their life. They haven't had enough exposure. Also, most of them can't use their brain for their life. 

Besides, we have had absolutely clueless coaches giving them hilarious advises. All of this adds up. But the moment you have a few educated smart youngsters like Bumrah playing, they understand the intricacies. I think there are a handful of bowlers who had the ability of doing a simple task, using their brain. Kapil Dev, Agarkar, Zaheer Khan, Nehra, Shami and Bumrah are the only bowlers from India who have known that there's a body part called brain. 

 

We can discuss a whole lot of issues like not having talent to bowl off stump consistently, Indian pitches being bad and hence trying to find the perfect length etc etc etc. But for me, using common sense, having that maturity as an athlete is most important. 

Most of the top athletes start practice at an early age around 8-9ish.. So by the time they are about 15-16, they already know their art like the back of their hand. They know the techniques, and are matured as athletes. But if you start playing at the age of 15-16, you will start understanding your art and you will start maturing by the age of 22-24. And that's too late, coz you are already thrown into the international arena then, which is not a place to experiment and learn, rather just to do the tried and tested methods. 

[Vijy]

On 12/14/2017 at 11:34 AM, sandeep said:

Yes, but with better guidance regarding training, rehab, and action changes, he could have potentially done better. The raw skill and athleticism was there.   And the guy was a decent bat too.  

methinks he was made to focus too much on this aspect which disrupted his bowling to some degree.

[speedheat]

  @express bowling     What do you think is the correct length to target that off stump?? Is it good length or fuller length considering that bounce is evn off the pitch?? I have argued it with my friends so many time but never came to  conclusion, some say its good some full  your views might help, thanks!!

[rkt.india]

25 minutes ago, speedheat said:

  @express bowling     What do you think is the correct length to target that off stump?? Is it good length or fuller length considering that bounce is evn off the pitch?? I have argued it with my friends so many time but never came to  conclusion, some say its good some full  your views might help, thanks!!

check hawkeye graphs on BCCI or ICC site or cricinfo. Need to hit the length that gets most wickets and that is moslty good length. Usually, good length is also called full length in layman's term.  A much taller bowler like Morkel can bowl a bit fuller because of his bounce.

[Tattieboy]

One of the reasons in my view is that seam bowlers from an early age upto even Ranji Trophy players will  have mainly  practised / played on concrete and now artificial wickets.

With virtually no seam movement on these wickets Indian batsmen at a  very early age are confident of just hitting through the line of those balls . Indian seam bowlers are then forced to bowl more wicket to wicket . 

At first class Ranji Trophy level wickets are batting friendly and seamers still struggle to get much from offstump and outside line. 

 

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, Tattieboy said:

One of the reasons in my view is that seam bowlers from an early age upto even Ranji Trophy players will  have mainly  practised / played on concrete and now artificial wickets.

With virtually no seam movement on these wickets Indian batsmen at a  very early age are confident of just hitting through the line of those balls . Indian seam bowlers are then forced to bowl more wicket to wicket . 

At first class Ranji Trophy level wickets are batting friendly and seamers still struggle to get much from offstump and outside line. 

 

This is very true.  What would be a probing line and length on a helpful track, will mercilessly get thwacked to the boundary by the likes of Sehwag and co. on Indian tracks.  So Indian pacers become habituated to bowl different lines...