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Better captain: Ganguly or Dhoni?


Better captain (All formats)  

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  1. 1. Who was the better India captain: Ganguly or Dhoni?



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11 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

No one mentioned, how Indian team under Ganguly suddenly developed a mental block in finals. Indian  team which used to win some finals with inferior set of players in 1990s was suddenly struggling to win any. No one can say that team didn't have capability, as sometimes they used to best team only to lose the last game

 

The way ODI team regressed suddenly was alaraming and was probably overshowed by overhyping shirt waving victory at Lords. We lost 4-3 to WI in 2002 at home and then 5-2 in NZ. Batting was down on confidence and SRT saved us in World cup.

 

In this regards Dhoni is way better than any other Indian captain. 

 

Although Ganguly took over during bas phase, he got best set of players. Dravid hit his peak in 2002 and continued same form till 2006. He was like Smith during this phase scoring truckloads of runs. SRT wasn't at peak, but still he managed to average 63 this phase.

 

Dravid - 73

SRT - 63

Sehwag - 52

Laxman - 52

 

How many captains have luxury of 4 batsman averaging over 52 with 1 in 70s and 1 in 60s. This was one of the strongest batting line up in history of Indian cricket and reason why we managed to save so many games overseas.

 

How can anyone credit Ganguly for greatness of Dravid, SRT and Laxman?

 

Along with that he got 2 spinners at peak under him - Kumble and Bhajji. Lack of pace options meant he couldn't many games away.

 

Ganguly certainly did well to hold the team together during initial years when there was too much discontent after match fixing saga. Situation was completely opposite to what it is now. Jayant Lele had no faith in Kapil Dev as coach who was busy taking care of his own group. Kapil Dev tried to hide Jadeja's injury to help him get into team and despite his efforts. Tendulkar was caught between all this and he wasn't happy about team selections. There was sense of mutual distrust on all sides. Team was low on confidence and when Ganguly took over many people were wondering whether he would be allowed to do his work freely. 

 

Luckily we got rid of Kapil Dev quickly and changes in adminstration/selection panel ensured a better relationship everywhere. Appointing John Wright was probably best thing to happen at that time as he left politics and all to others and focussed on the game. Ganguly certainly did very well ensuring that friction is reduced everywhere and everyone is limited to their intended roles only. He was a better man manager than any other captain.

 

Ganguly was the person who took capable people up the mountain and was suceesful in that, while on the other hand Dhoni took over when same people were going downhill. Sehwag, Dravid, Laxman, all players started declining after 2009-10 and there was no easy way to phase them out as they were great players. No wonder most those batsmen have low averages under him. However he got Zak at prime albeit for very few matches and was able maximise those resources to achieve great results both at home and away.

 

Once they all hit bottom at once, he was left with worst team we have seen so far. No batsman or bowler was ranked among top 10 in 2012 for India. This was extraordinary situation compounded by Dhoni's own lack of ideas. He didn't try anything at all when team was losing in England or Australia. However forced by conditions, he backed young players like Ashwin and Jadeja who turned out to be match winners later.

 

Almost everyone called Vijay and Jadeja as CSK picks, but those have been our best turn arounds in test cricket in last 5 years. Especially Jadeja who has been winning for us on flat pitches. He didn't give on any other batsmen easily either. This is something most of Indian captains have failed to manage.

 

Dhoni maximised ODI potential of the team. He was helped by the consistent use of same pattern which worked for him for long time. 

 

We didn't regressed under ganguly in odis ,it was only the finals where we had a mental block.cant see our previous teams reaching 3 consecutive finals of major icc events which we did from 2000-2003.we were average at home in odis but we were decent away from home,we won an odi series in Windies,pak,England .that nzl side was a strong one at home ,they even thrashed saf next year 5-1 ,we could have won an odi or two but for massive chokes ,even under dhoni we have got smashed in nzl,England and saf 

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43 minutes ago, adi B said:

We didn't regressed under ganguly in odis ,it was only the finals where we had a mental block.cant see our previous teams reaching 3 consecutive finals of major icc events which we did from 2000-2003.we were average at home in odis but we were decent away from home,we won an odi series in Windies,pak,England .that nzl side was a strong one at home ,they even thrashed saf next year 5-1 ,we could have won an odi or two but for massive chokes ,even under dhoni we have got smashed in nzl,England and saf 

Then how come team had better W/L ratio under Azhar along with multiple wins in finals.

 

Better team, lower win loss ratio to go with 9 losses in final. How is that improvement?

 

Overall figures
Captain Teams Span Mat Won Lost Tied NR W/LDescending Ave RPO Inns HS LS  
*V Kohli 1 2013-2017 43 33 9 0 1 3.666 49.03 5.81 43 404 158 investigate this query
*MS Dhoni 1 2007-2016 199 110 74 4 11 1.486 36.86 5.58 195 414 88 investigate this query
*R Dravid 1 2000-2007 79 42 33 0 4 1.272 33.86 5.15 78 413 91 investigate this query
*M Azharuddin 1 1990-1999 174 90 76 2 6 1.184 32.29 4.71 173 373 100 investigate this query
*N Kapil Dev 1 1982-1987 74 39 33 0 2 1.181 30.76 4.60 74 299 78 investigate this query
*SC Ganguly 1 1999-2005 146 76 65 0 5 1.169 32.79 5.13 145 356 54 investigate this query

 

 

Ganguly isn't in top 5 in ODIs for a reason.

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16 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Then how come team had better W/L ratio under Azhar along with multiple wins in finals.

 

Better team, lower win loss ratio to go with 9 losses in final. How is that improvement?

 

Overall figures
Captain Teams Span Mat Won Lost Tied NR W/LDescending Ave RPO Inns HS LS  
*V Kohli 1 2013-2017 43 33 9 0 1 3.666 49.03 5.81 43 404 158 investigate this query
*MS Dhoni 1 2007-2016 199 110 74 4 11 1.486 36.86 5.58 195 414 88 investigate this query
*R Dravid 1 2000-2007 79 42 33 0 4 1.272 33.86 5.15 78 413 91 investigate this query
*M Azharuddin 1 1990-1999 174 90 76 2 6 1.184 32.29 4.71 173 373 100 investigate this query
*N Kapil Dev 1 1982-1987 74 39 33 0 2 1.181 30.76 4.60 74 299 78 investigate this query
*SC Ganguly 1 1999-2005 146 76 65 0 5 1.169 32.79 5.13 145 356 54 investigate this query

 

 

Ganguly isn't in top 5 in ODIs for a reason.

If you are going purely by win/loss ratio then kohli is the greatest odi captain in history, way better than dhoni, isn't he :aha:?

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14 minutes ago, kira said:

If you are going purely by win/loss ratio then kohli is the greatest odi captain in history, way better than dhoni, isn't he :aha:?

No, let's ignore win loss ratio.

 

Ignore losses in so many finals.

 

Ignore that team had much better players.

 

Ignore all facts and go for flimsy fighting like tiger, leading from front statements and declare that performances improved under Ganguly.

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46 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Then how come team had better W/L ratio under Azhar along with multiple wins in finals.

 

Better team, lower win loss ratio to go with 9 losses in final. How is that improvement?

 

Overall figures
Captain Teams Span Mat Won Lost Tied NR W/LDescending Ave RPO Inns HS LS  
*V Kohli 1 2013-2017 43 33 9 0 1 3.666 49.03 5.81 43 404 158 investigate this query
*MS Dhoni 1 2007-2016 199 110 74 4 11 1.486 36.86 5.58 195 414 88 investigate this query
*R Dravid 1 2000-2007 79 42 33 0 4 1.272 33.86 5.15 78 413 91 investigate this query
*M Azharuddin 1 1990-1999 174 90 76 2 6 1.184 32.29 4.71 173 373 100 investigate this query
*N Kapil Dev 1 1982-1987 74 39 33 0 2 1.181 30.76 4.60 74 299 78 investigate this query
*SC Ganguly 1 1999-2005 146 76 65 0 5 1.169 32.79 5.13 145 356 54 investigate this query

 

 

Ganguly isn't in top 5 in ODIs for a reason.

Reason that doesn't matter in Dada's case is ICC CT 2000, CT 2002 and CWC 2003. In 2000 CT even though we lost the final we beat an ATG Aus and a super strong SA in our path to the F. In 2003 even an all time combined Indian XI would have fallen short against that Australia. 

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19 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

No, let's ignore win loss ratio.

 

Ignore losses in so many finals.

 

Ignore that team had much better players.

 

Ignore all facts and go for flimsy fighting like tiger, leading from front statements and declare that performances improved under Ganguly.

When you compare two captains of different generations or different time period stats are irrelevant, coz game changes as time changes for example this current Australia is not Australia of past, so need to be more practical than theoretical in such matters, so gangully wins it hands down.

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9 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Reason that doesn't matter in Dada's case is ICC CT 2000, CT 2002 and CWC 2003. In 2000 CT even though we lost the final we beat an ATG Aus and a super strong SA in our path to the F. In 2003 even an all time combined Indian XI would have fallen short against that Australia. 

What about other finals and losses even at home? One can say that team didn't perform bad under him, but when comparing with other best captains of India, performance was definitely better under all other captains.

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1 minute ago, speedheat said:

When you compare two captains of different generations or different time period stats are irrelevant, coz game changes as time changes for example this current Australia is not Australia of past, so need to be more practical than theoretical in such matters, so gangully wins it hands down.

How come there aren't facts supporting him and only theories in support of how it was better. It was not that we were facing Aus in all matches and all finals.

 

How come team lost 4-3 to WI at home and then 5-2 in NZ? Ganguly had better resources at his disposal. Did we have better finishers than Dhoni and Yuvi? Did we have better openers than SRT and Sehwag earlier? Still we lost 4-2 to Pakistan at home in 2005. We were leading 2-0 in that series and then lost 4 consecutive matches. No other Indian captain would have lost 4 consecutive matches to that team.

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Finals under Ganguly

 

Career summary
GroupingAscending Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
v Australia 2003-2004 3 3 0 33 24 11.00 61 54.09 0 0 0 3 1 view innings
v England 2002-2002 1 1 0 60 60 60.00 43 139.53 0 1 0 10 1 view innings
v New Zealand 2000-2005 2 2 0 148 117 74.00 174 85.05 1 0 0 14 4 view innings
v South Africa 2001-2003 2 2 1 20 11* 20.00 53 37.73 0 0 0 2 0 view innings
v Sri Lanka 2000-2004 5 3 0 8 4 2.66 40 20.00 0 0 0 0 0 view innings
v West Indies 2001-2001 1 1 0 28 28 28.00 32 87.50 0 0 0 3 1 view innings

 

We won 1 against England and lost to all other teams. 10 losses out of 14. 

 

Probably Ganguly's own performance was reason for those losses, averaged 27 just like current captain who is averaging 22.

 

When he scored 60 and led from front with attacking knock, we did win the match. 

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Lowest W/L ratio among top 5 captains.

 

Worst performance in finals 

 

Overall figures
Captain Teams Span Mat Won Lost Tied NR W/LDescending Ave RPO Inns HS LS  
*SM Gavaskar 1 1985-1985 1 1 0 0 0 - 88.50 3.75 1 177 - investigate this query
*RJ Shastri 1 1988-1988 1 1 0 0 0 - 35.71 5.00 1 250 - investigate this query
*DB Vengsarkar 1 1988-1988 1 1 0 0 0 - 45.00 4.84 1 180 - investigate this query
*MS Dhoni 1 2008-2013 11 7 4 0 0 1.750 31.29 5.29 11 319 173 investigate this query
*M Azharuddin 1 1991-1999 19 11 8 0 0 1.375 34.56 4.87 19 316 125 investigate this query
*N Kapil Dev 1 1983-1986 5 2 3 0 0 0.666 20.77 3.84 5 245 159 investigate this query
*SR Tendulkar 1 1996-1999 6 1 3 0 2 0.333 28.60 4.63 6 254 234 investigate this query
*SC Ganguly 1 2000-2005 14 1 10 0 3 0.100 23.41 4.72 14 326 54 investigate this query

 

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12 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

How come team lost 4-3 to WI at home and then 5-2 in NZ? Ganguly had better resources at his disposal. Did we have better finishers than Dhoni and Yuvi? Did we have better openers than SRT and Sehwag earlier? Still we lost 4-2 to Pakistan at home in 2005. We were leading 2-0 in that series and then lost 4 consecutive matches. No other Indian captain would have lost 4 consecutive matches to that team.

Actually dhoni was batting at 3 in that series, and he was not a finisher then and yuvi wasnt the same yuvraj.......he was very inconsistent then . Its under dravid when he got to bat at 4....he became a diff player

 

Also last 2 games were captained by dravid, ganguly was banned due to overrate

 

Still remember that time , people were asking for his throat like people go after dhoni today. Ganguly was woefully out of form where he cudnt even touch the ball . 

 

16 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

What about other finals and losses even at home? One can say that team didn't perform bad under him, but when comparing with other best captans of India, performance was definitely better under all other captains.

yup like that Ind-Wi-zimb tri series where we were at top in whole series and crumbled in final

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35 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Reason that doesn't matter in Dada's case is ICC CT 2000, CT 2002 and CWC 2003. In 2000 CT even though we lost the final we beat an ATG Aus and a super strong SA in our path to the F. In 2003 even an all time combined Indian XI would have fallen short against that Australia. 

That aussie team vs all time indian XI can be an interesting  topic specially when we knw the pitch , match and opposition

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@Trichromatic Peak UV and peak Dhoni entered the picture only after 2005, Gangu's team didn't have many matchwinners. Even SRT wasn't a matchwinner (unlike 90s) in that period because of tennis elbow and dip in form. I agree his record is atrocious in the finals even taking into account the fact that we played some very good teams then. But since when have we cared about Kitply and Hajmola Cups over CT/WC? In 2000, 2002 and 2003 he delivered our best 3 consecutive ICC runs and that is good enough for me. Dhoni did zilch in WCs/WT20s/CT except that 2011 F, yet was rescued time and again by much better, more clutch players than him. Gangu didn't have that luxury. In tests there is no comparison and finally Gangu left the team in much better shape while Dhoni destroyed the future of Indian cricket and cost us min 2 years time in rebuilding, in ODIs it has taken a turn for the worse under the inept Kohli. 

Edited by Gollum
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5 minutes ago, Gollum said:

@Trichromatic Peak UV and peak Dhoni entered the picture only after 2005, Gangu's team didn't have many matchwinners. Even SRT wasn't a matchwinner (unlike 90s) in that period because of tennis elbow and dip in form. I agree his record is atrocious in the finals even taking into account the fact that we played some very good teams then. But since when have we cared about Kitply and Hajmola Cups over CT/WC? In 2000, 2002 and 2003 he delivered our best 3 consecutive ICC runs and that is good enough for me. Dhoni did zilch in WCs/WT20s/CT except that 2011 F, yet was rescued time and again by much better, more clutch players than him. Gangu didn't have that luxury. In tests there is no comparison and finally Gangu left the team in much better shape while Dhoni destroyed the future of Indian cricket and cost us min 2 years time in rebuilding, in ODIs it has taken a turn for the worse under the inept Kohli. 

Gangu use to bottle down in finals, like even kohli does now . Final is all about pressure and dhoni was much better at it

Dhoni won Aus CB series which is the toughest with quite a new team

Dhoni won CT 2013 again with a new team

200t20WC- again no seniors of that time

 

So that luxury word is a lil overrated

Gangu use to waste yuvraj at 6, in final azhar was a better captain then him 

 

Gangu didnt leave didnt in good shape it was in bad shape....just check his record in last 2 yrs. Its actually dravid n chappel that got many new players and under them yuvi n dhoni became better players. 

 

How did dhoni destroy the future????? The whole team is quite same its just that we now have bumrah , yuzi, n pandya n much improved bhuvi . Now if i use the word luxury 

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Stephen Fleming has win % of 48.04 in ODIs with a good NZ team. Ranatunga 48.37 with a good Lankan team. Martin Crowe=48.83

 

Azhar=54.16

Ganguly=53.52

Dravid=56

Misbah=53.48

Angelo Mathews=51.07

Cook=54.47

Steve Smith=55.81

Kohli=78.57

 

Can't base everything on winning %.

 

source: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283747.html

 

Edited by Gollum
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49 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

How come there aren't facts supporting him and only theories in support of how it was better. It was not that we were facing Aus in all matches and all finals.

 

How come team lost 4-3 to WI at home and then 5-2 in NZ? Ganguly had better resources at his disposal. Did we have better finishers than Dhoni and Yuvi? Did we have better openers than SRT and Sehwag earlier? Still we lost 4-2 to Pakistan at home in 2005. We were leading 2-0 in that series and then lost 4 consecutive matches. No other Indian captain would have lost 4 consecutive matches to that team.

Nop ganguly didn't had better resource, first of all ganguly was himself a poor odi bat

1. lets look at 4-3 loss to windies, apart from sehwgh and sachin who we had?? Laxman, dravid, mongia, bangar, kaif were average odi  cricketers, youraj( was developing but still youraj was not youraj in 2002) and I rate bowling attack of srinath(past his prime) agarkar nehra bangur and harbhajan as poor! 

2. In 2005  4-2 Loss, again the bowling of balaji pathan even though they did wel in 2004 Pakistan tour were down in pace and looked exhausted Zak too was coming out of injury  in that series vs pak so I rate bowling attack as poor too, middle order again with ganguly,laxman,dravid, kaif in to it was poor/average  only dhoni was the positive of  series with that brilliant 148.

 

By the time yuvi and dhoni hit the peak gangullys captaincy was taken away from him, so he did well with limited potential and team  he had which stats don't show also standards of Aussie, pak, west indies was still high and it degraded by the dhoni became captain.

Edited by speedheat
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Just now, New guy said:

If the same poll was conducted during 2012, dhoni would have won by big margin. How the mighty have fallen

If the same poll was conducted in 2005, people wud have asked for anyone else......ganguly life was quite hell during his last phase

Happens with all captain......kohli ka to abhi se ye haal hone laga hai that we are asking for rohit (including me who was against rohit n in favour of kohli)

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40 minutes ago, New guy said:

If the same poll was conducted during 2012, dhoni would have won by big margin. How the mighty have fallen

lol...teri hi kami thi bhai

Ganguly is great because he won the mighty POLL on ICF as compared to lowly ICC trophies and no#1 rankings won under Dhoni in real Cricket. :phehe:

 

Edited by Shunya
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