China is Indias biggest enemy. They are doing everything possible to harm and undermine India

[surajmal]

6 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

 

Japan had infrastructure that was 25 years ahead of its time in the 80s, yet it got crushed after the asset bubble burst.

 

The fact that they have got everything buillt is a curse. Where are hundreds of millions of Chinese workers who were engaged in this massive infrastructure overhaul over 25 years going to be employed now ? Where are Millions of Chinese workers that rely on Chinese export factory going to be employed as demand growth has absolutely dried out in consumer based North America and Europe.

 

china cannot all of a sudden become a consumer economy to make up for it .

it is a cultural thing and takes atleast a generation to bring about that mindset 

Their consumption is now much higher than exports.

I don't understand the hate towards China from Indians (some). If you are afraid that they will fe ck with Indians, how different is it from goras? Bide your time for a decade or so. Once Indian economy hits 10 trillion, Chinese will start respecting. 

Western universalism expired 100 years. They have just been circling the drain since then. It's about time, the historically preeminent region of the planet assumed its position at the big boy table. 

[Muloghonto]

8 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

 

You clearly have no understanding of how economies function. 

 

When 5 dollars of credit is required to produce 1 dollar of incremental gdp growth ( this was at 1.5 dollars of credit in 2005 and will grow to 7, 8 dollars in 2019) - for a managed gdp growth of 6.5 1 you are just staring at disaster.

 

Any enforced  develeraging effect will produce a negative gdp growth or close to zero now. This addiction to debt has to stop at some point.

 

You can seize all the assets you want - it makes no difference because those assets are 5-6 times their normalized value and the only balancing effect would be massive devaluation of the yuan.

 

 

 

As i said, your economic knowledge means NOTHING when applied to a totalitarian regime towards their INTERNAL economics.

It is disaster for any normal nation. Its not disaster for China. Why ? because as i said, if China faces a capital crunch, they will simply lift that money from PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNTS OF THEIR CITIZENS.

 

Has any of your examples of USA or Japan done that ? ever ? I can give you PLENTY of examples of China having done that in the last 30 years and still doing it NOW.

 

So yes, seizing assets and selling it to foreigners or simply seizing billions of CASH from its citizenry will get them out of that hole. They are not stupid- they know what their authoritarian power gets them. And it gets them free access to personal bank accounts as they see fit.

 

Look, the proof is in the pudding. All these type of analysis over China has been proven wrong over and over and over again. So wake up, smell the coffee and stop living in la-la land regarding China. As long as they keep being a net exporter of manufactured products, their economy will truck along just fine. if it hits the rough waters, the 'emperor will eat a few rich fat billionaires' and carry trucking along. Thats how China works, thats how it has worked and thats why it can carry a debt-to-GDP ration that would sink  even USA.

 

[narenpande1]

10 minutes ago, surajmal said:

Their consumption is now much higher than exports.

I don't understand the hate towards China from Indians (some). If you are afraid that they will fe ck with Indians, how different is it from goras? Bide your time for a decade or so. Once Indian economy hits 10 trillion, Chinese will start respecting. 

Western universalism expired 100 years. They have just been circling the drain since then. It's about time, the historically preeminent region of the planet assumed its position at the big boy table. 

 

Who gives a * about respect from Chinese filth. It’s not like they are Japanese or Germans.

 

they have turned out to be a rogue evil regime that is secretly sending oil and supplies to North Korea in violation to its promises to UN. 

They bark about “ one china “ on Taiwan’s de facto independence, but are doing everything they can to prevent the 2 Korea’s from Uniting because this would mean having US Troops at their door steps.

they behave as if their sovereignty is the most pious thing that must be obeyed by every country while they trample on every other countries soveringty - by claiming land or large swathes of water bodies.

 

i don’t live in the wrong and fanciful Asian century dream to relive history - it cannot happen unless Chinese communists are overthrown 

Edited January 29, 2018 by narenpande1

[Muloghonto]

12 minutes ago, surajmal said:

Their consumption is now much higher than exports.

I don't understand the hate towards China from Indians (some). If you are afraid that they will fe ck with Indians, how different is it from goras? Bide your time for a decade or so. Once Indian economy hits 10 trillion, Chinese will start respecting. 

Western universalism expired 100 years. They have just been circling the drain since then. It's about time, the historically preeminent region of the planet assumed its position at the big boy table. 

Without a lot of education and liberalism, its not going to happen. 
The western world invented the modern world. India or China may've been pre-emminent for a longer period of time, but what the west has invented & discovered in the last 400 years, is orders of magnitude greater than the sum total accomplishment of the Indian civilization or the rest of the world civilizations put together.

That level of knowledge & education is going nowhere and as we transition more and more into the information age, the western superiority in education and systematic governance will keep them at the top for very very long time.

 

Western universalism is still relevant and expanding, not contracting. That is why kids in villages of India listen to western music, they imitate western clothing and they know better english than they know Hindi (unless they are from the Hindi belt).

The western culture is the dominant culture of the globe and their growth is still second to none, aside from the relevant local culture.
 

What India was in the past, is irrelevant. What is relevant, is we have to integrate into the western world if we are to move forward. We don't have the capital (financial, industrial or intellectual) to set up a parallel system and any set up of a parallel system will be met with hostility from the overwhelmingly superior western civilization (in every aspect). Sort of whats happening with China but China is hanging in there due to their totalitarian control of their population (a luxury India does not have in this scenario and will never have).

 

indians are fools to think their best case scenario EVER is going to be a better scenario than Japan's (integrate with the west and retain cultural autonomy).

  And that is far better than a fools quest of parallel systems and 'reclaiming lost glory' spouted by ignorant fools with inferiority complex.

 

[surajmal]

9 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

 

Who gives a * about respect from Chinese filth. It’s not like they are Japanese or Germans.

 

they have turned out to be a rogue evil regime that is secretly sending oil and supplies to North Korea in violation to its promises to UN. 

They bark about “ one china “ on Taiwan’s de facto independence, but are doing everything they can to prevent the 2 Korea’s from Uniting because this would mean having US Troops at their door steps.

they behave as if their sovereignty is the most pious thing that must be obeyed by every country while they trample on every other countries soveringty - by claiming land or large swathes of water bodies.

 

i don’t live in the wrong and fanciful Asian century dream to relive history - it cannot happen unless Chinese communists are overthrown 

And this behaviour is different from other great powers in what way?

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

 

Who gives a * about respect from Chinese filth. It’s not like they are Japanese or Germans.

 

they have turned out to be a rogue evil regime that is secretly sending oil and supplies to North Korea in violation to its promises to UN. 

They bark about “ one china “ on Taiwan’s de facto independence, but are doing everything they can to prevent the 2 Korea’s from Uniting because this would mean having US Troops at their door steps.

they behave as if their sovereignty is the most pious thing that must be obeyed by every country while they trample on every other countries soveringty - by claiming land or large swathes of water bodies.

 

i don’t live in the wrong and fanciful Asian century dream to relive history - it cannot happen unless Chinese communists are overthrown 

China's communists are not going anywhere. Their people lack the ability to oppose them and will not oppose them even in your dream scenario of economic collapse. Because of the simple fact that PLA,PLAN and PLAAF all swear allegience to the communist party of China (and this time, to 11 himself), not to the nation of China.

 

[narenpande1]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

China's communists are not going anywhere. Their people lack the ability to oppose them and will not oppose them even in your dream scenario of economic collapse. Because of the simple fact that PLA,PLAN and PLAAF all swear allegience to the communist party of China (and this time, to 11 himself), not to the nation of China.

 

Chinese collapse not a dream , it is a reality that is being delayed artificially - as accepted even by China’s central bank governor ( who is expected to be a communist party insider ) since unlike normal economies, the central bank in China is not at all independent of the govt

 

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1CO0D6

 

I never said the chinese communists are going anywhere - I said they will provoke a war to divert attention from an imminent economic disaster. 

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by narenpande1

[surajmal]

10 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Without a lot of education and liberalism, its not going to happen. 
The western world invented the modern world. India or China may've been pre-emminent for a longer period of time, but what the west has invented & discovered in the last 400 years, is orders of magnitude greater than the sum total accomplishment of the Indian civilization or the rest of the world civilizations put together.

That level of knowledge & education is going nowhere and as we transition more and more into the information age, the western superiority in education and systematic governance will keep them at the top for very very long time.

 

Western universalism is still relevant and expanding, not contracting. That is why kids in villages of India listen to western music, they imitate western clothing and they know better english than they know Hindi (unless they are from the Hindi belt).

The western culture is the dominant culture of the globe and their growth is still second to none, aside from the relevant local culture.
 

What India was in the past, is irrelevant. What is relevant, is we have to integrate into the western world if we are to move forward. We don't have the capital (financial, industrial or intellectual) to set up a parallel system and any set up of a parallel system will be met with hostility from the overwhelmingly superior western civilization (in every aspect). Sort of whats happening with China but China is hanging in there due to their totalitarian control of their population (a luxury India does not have in this scenario and will never have).

 

indians are fools to think their best case scenario EVER is going to be a better scenario than Japan's (integrate with the west and retain cultural autonomy).

  And that is far better than a fools quest of parallel systems and 'reclaiming lost glory' spouted by ignorant fools with inferiority complex.

 

You could have just stopped there.

Edited January 29, 2018 by surajmal

[Muloghonto]

Just now, narenpande1 said:

Chinese collapse not a dream , it is a reality that is being delayed artificially - as accepted even by China’s central bank governor ( who is expected to be a communist party insider ) since unlike normal economies, the central bank in China is not at all independent 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1CO0D6

 

I never said the chinese communists are going anywhere - I said they will provoke a war to divert attention from an imminent economic disaster. 

 

Chinese are not fighters. They are the 'salami style conquerors in peacetime'. This is why China's peaceful rise has been at the detriment of all its neighbors.

 

[narenpande1]

57 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Chinese are not fighters. They are the 'salami style conquerors in peacetime'. This is why China's peaceful rise has been at the detriment of all its neighbors.

 

And when the salami slicing is stopped and they are shown their place... coupled with a artificial debt fueled “ growth “ , they will all of a sudden become vanguard of Chinese sovereignty and wage a war for which we need to build a massive stockpile of missiles and bolster our air defenses 

 

the disparity between north and South Korea is 50 times more than india and China, if India maintains and aggressive war mongering posture to reduce to flames their entire eastern coastal prosperous belt - they will come to their senses. They are thugs who believe in intimidation and deceit.

 

india must sign a nato like pact with Japan and US who are itching to get into such an arrangement. India must shed its idiotic non aligned policy.

 

japanese navy is a BEAST that can take out all Chinese submarines in 2 hours. US 7th fleet is well.. understood. Together with India , we can blockade malacca strait and put a heavy foot on China’s throat 

[gattaca]

6 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

People taking about 'slowing down of China's economy' makes me shake my head in disbelief.

Yes, their growth rate is slowing down. But they are still pulling AWAY from India.

You know why ? because China's real GDP (nominal) for 2017 is $9376 It grew at 6.7% That means, in 2016, China's per capita (nominal) GDP was $8787. Ie, they added $589 per capita last year.

Now lets look at India: our nominal per-capita GDP is $1989. India grew at 7.2% YAY we grew faster !!! But that means in 2016, India's per capita (nominal) GDP was $1855. Ie, we added $134 per capita to our economy last year.

 

As long as China continues to pull away from us in REAL dollar amount, they will continue to bully us. Simple.

 

Ya why wouldn’t it grow. They make the prisoners work inhumanely and also their own farmers are picked and packed in a room and make them work 18-20 hours. I remember reading letters in cereal boxes and few other stuff online once about the in humane conditions in China and also bypassing all kinds of trade related tariffs by using third countries. I really hope they stop polluting us market place with cheap products. It’s not just toys but agriculture products which can cause dangers to the American population. 

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, narenpande1 said:

And when the salami slicing is stopped and they are shown their place... coupled with a artificial debt fueled “ growth “ , they will all of a sudden become vanguard of Chinese sovereignty and wage a war for which we need to build a massive stockpile of missiles and bolster our air defenses 

Wishful thinking. They are not going to stop their salami-slicing. Neither are they going to commit to a war with a nuclear power unless directly invaded. Think about it- the salami-slicing at peace-time is working for them. Why change a winning formula ?

 

Their debt-fuelled growth will keep going on, as long as they are world leaders in export. Any internal fiscal failure will be balanced by strong-arm tactics, with confiscation of liquidity from whomever they choose. 

1 minute ago, narenpande1 said:

 

the disparity between north and South Korea is 50 times more than india and China, if India maintains and aggressive war mongering posture to reduce to flames their entire eastern coastal prosperous belt - they will come to their senses. They are thugs who believe in intimidation and deceit.

India won't do it because China is better integrated into the global economic system than we are. And threatening China will bring down the rest of the world (read: US and its allies) on us for being a destabilizing force. Their missile tech is better than ours, especially when it comes to ICBMs. So we maintain an aggressive posture and they will reciprocate. And our government will cave first before their's does because nobody likes living under the threat of nuclear war and Indian government is far more likely to listen to its people than China is. 

1 minute ago, narenpande1 said:

 

india must sign a nato like pact with Japan and US who are itching to get into such an arrangement. India must shed its idiotic non aligned policy.

For India to sign a NATO-like agreement, India has to be much, much stronger economically and be in a position to make up for Chinese strong-arming the trade relation with Japan and USA. The reason the quadrilateral alliance has been talked about, is for US-Japan to have leverage against China. But they are not serious about it, because they depend far more on trade with China than India and know India cannot replace China if China starts a trade-war because of military alliance threat. 

 

1 minute ago, narenpande1 said:

japanese navy is a BEAST that can take out all Chinese submarines in 2 hours. US 7th fleet is well.. understood. Together with India , we can blockade malacca strait and put a heavy foot on China’s throat 

They don't need India to deal with China. I don't think you realize the power of the US Navy. The USN fleet, fully mobilized can take out the entire combined world's navy in a month. Why the heck do they need us ? They are fully capable of blockading the Malaccas and strait of Taiwan as they see fit. Does India need Oman in its dispute with Pakistan ? Indian Navy is to the US Navy, what Oman is to our navy. 

[narenpande1]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Wishful thinking. They are not going to stop their salami-slicing. Neither are they going to commit to a war with a nuclear power unless directly invaded. Think about it- the salami-slicing at peace-time is working for them. Why change a winning formula ?

 

Their debt-fuelled growth will keep going on, as long as they are world leaders in export. Any internal fiscal failure will be balanced by strong-arm tactics, with confiscation of liquidity from whomever they choose. 

India won't do it because China is better integrated into the global economic system than we are. And threatening China will bring down the rest of the world (read: US and its allies) on us for being a destabilizing force. Their missile tech is better than ours, especially when it comes to ICBMs. So we maintain an aggressive posture and they will reciprocate. And our government will cave first before their's does because nobody likes living under the threat of nuclear war and Indian government is far more likely to listen to its people than China is. 

For India to sign a NATO-like agreement, India has to be much, much stronger economically and be in a position to make up for Chinese strong-arming the trade relation with Japan and USA. The reason the quadrilateral alliance has been talked about, is for US-Japan to have leverage against China. But they are not serious about it, because they depend far more on trade with China than India and know India cannot replace China if China starts a trade-war because of military alliance threat. 

 

They don't need India to deal with China. I don't think you realize the power of the US Navy. The USN fleet, fully mobilized can take out the entire combined world's navy in a month. Why the heck do they need us ? They are fully capable of blockading the Malaccas and strait of Taiwan as they see fit. Does India need Oman in its dispute with Pakistan ? Indian Navy is to the US Navy, what Oman is to our navy. 

I do realize that you know very little about defense pacts and blocks.

 

if the US was so powerful stand alone, they would not have NATO troops doing half the dirty work in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

India is THE STRONGEST NAVY in the Indian Ocean region by far. The eastern most Andaman Islands are barely 100 miles to malacca strait. We have extremely dense missile and air defense in that area and are in the strongest position to blockade it since it is many thousand miles away from Chinese shores. 

 

All our naval vessels - be it frigates, destroyers or submarines there carry the best of attack and defense missiles - as good or better than US.

 

on the attack front we have each of these vessels equipped with 8 Brahmos missiles  - which are better than any attack cruise missile on the planet.

 

they are also packed with a battery of  Barak8 - the best medium range surface to air missiles ON THE PLANET. 

 

Plus all our naval vessels have the best of Israeli radars that are at par with what US has.

 

We have about a dozen Poseidon submarine trackers that are on 24 hour vigil monitoring Chinese submarine movement in the Indian Ocean region.

 

by any measure we are among the top 5-6 navies in the world. To compare us with Oman even relatively - you must be deluded.

 

 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, narenpande1 said:

I do realize that you know very little about defense pacts and blocks.

 

if the US was so powerful stand alone, they would not have NATO troops doing half the dirty work in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

India is THE STRONGEST NAVY in the Indian Ocean region by far. The eastern most Andaman Islands are barely 100 miles to malacca strait. We have extremely dense missile and air defense in that area and are in the strongest position to blockade it since it is many thousand miles away from Chinese shores. 

 

All our naval vessels - be it frigates, destroyers or submarines there carry the best of attack and defense missiles - as good or better than US.

 

on the attack front we have each of these vessels equipped with 8 Brahmos missiles  - which are better than any attack cruise missile on the planet.

 

they are also packed with a battery of  Barak8 - the best medium range surface to air missiles ON THE PLANET. 

 

Plus all our naval vessels have the best of Israeli radars that are at par with what US has.

 

We have about a dozen Poseidon submarine trackers that are on 24 hour vigil monitoring Chinese submarine movement in the Indian Ocean region.

 

by any measure we are among the top 5-6 navies in the world. To compare us with Oman even relatively - you must be deluded.

 

 

US needs NATO for ground operations. Because that's where western troops get killed. And any amount of non-US NATO partners doing air or naval activity is less $$ spent for the US. But you are a complete idiot if you think the USN needs anyone for anything with a naval objective in mind.

Yes, we know India has a powerful navy. I don't think you understand the simple fact (don't worry, not many do actually) the superiority of the USN. It is by far...by FAAAAR the most powerful arm of the US military apparatus and the USN can sink the entire Indian Navy in 1 week flat, once they get here.

We may be top six Navy in the world, but the trouble is, the 'Naval World' is akin to Sachin Tendulkar and nine high school kids, with Sachin here being USN. 

So all this talk of 'military alliance because they need us' is simple hot air chest thumping from Indians. We need them WAY MORE than they need us and that's a simple fact. 

 

You clearly do not get analogies if you think I actually compared Indian Navy to Oman's navy. 

I said COMPARED TO THE US, we are what Oman is to the IN : small, rusty, out-dated stuff that is quantitatively AND qualitatively inferior. 

We have less than 20 subs. They have 70+. All better than ours FYI. We have 1 carrier built and 1 to go. USN has like 10 carriers (all better than ours) good to go and another 10 they can bring out of moth-ball anytime they wish. We have like 50 naval combat jets, they have like 1000+. They have more destroyers, more cruisers....all better than us. 

Indian Navy is a small mouse compared to the elephant that the USN is. This is not a diss on India- everyone's Navy is floating death-traps waiting to be kicked over by the USN. That's the disparity in naval terms and you see to be ignorant of that. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Muloghonto

[narenpande1]

38 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

US needs NATO for ground operations. Because that's where western troops get killed. And any amount of non-US NATO partners doing air or naval activity is less $$ spent for the US. But you are a complete idiot if you think the USN needs anyone for anything with a naval objective in mind.

Yes, we know India has a powerful navy. I don't think you understand the simple fact (don't worry, not many do actually) the superiority of the USN. It is by far...by FAAAAR the most powerful arm of the US military apparatus and the USN can sink the entire Indian Navy in 1 week flat, once they get here.

We may be top six Navy in the world, but the trouble is, the 'Naval World' is akin to Sachin Tendulkar and nine high school kids, with Sachin here being USN. 

So all this talk of 'military alliance because they need us' is simple hot air chest thumping from Indians. We need them WAY MORE than they need us and that's a simple fact. 

 

You clearly do not get analogies if you think I actually compared Indian Navy to Oman's navy. 

I said COMPARED TO THE US, we are what Oman is to the IN : small, rusty, out-dated stuff that is quantitatively AND qualitatively inferior. 

We have less than 20 subs. They have 70+. All better than ours FYI. We have 1 carrier built and 1 to go. USN has like 10 carriers (all better than ours) good to go and another 10 they can bring out of moth-ball anytime they wish. We have like 50 naval combat jets, they have like 1000+. They have more destroyers, more cruisers....all better than us. 

Indian Navy is a small mouse compared to the elephant that the USN is. This is not a diss on India- everyone's Navy is floating death-traps waiting to be kicked over by the USN. That's the disparity in naval terms and you see to be ignorant of that. 

Everybody knows US has 10 carriers - more than the rest of the world combined. 

 

But wars are not won on weapon count only  but tactics and allies and psychological warfare. 

 

For all its economic strength, South Korea with the best of American technology and 10 times higher defense budget than North Korea would get smoked by North Korea if America did not intervene.

 

I am not comparing numbers and strength with the US. For all their might, they got plundered in Vietnam and Afghanistan. 

 

 

 

They need us as much as we need them. 

China is what it is, because the US and the west outsourced millions of jobs there and allowed china entry into WTO. 

 

We too need military technology economic backing - they need in us a strong countervailing force to China in Asia. And we are the only country in the world who can do that. If china dominates Asia with a free hand, they will venture out of Asia and challenge US. US wants to pin them to Asia and it’s periphery.

 

You know very little if you say Chinese icbm tech is better than ours just by way of distance. Our rockets are solid fuel  based which is  a much much greater advantage over Chinese liquid fuel based icbms.

 

Our Ballstic missiles have much lower circular error probable than any Chinese missile - which means they are way more accurate.

 

also please remember - we had a first try success with mangalyan - an extraordinary feat.  China is not even close to that. 

Our rocket engineering is world clsss and better than theirs at bare minimum.

 

China may be 20 years ahead of us economically, but 20 years are minuscule in the life and destiny of a nation at the same time a lot can change in 20 years.

 

afterall what was china in 1998 ?

 

the reality is India is at a take off stage and china is on a decline. India must play it smart to achieve absolute parity with China by 2050 and then dominate Asia beyond that.

 

as a nation becomes more prosperous, its citizens demand more freedom, especially after seeing the freedom in the western world. The CCP denies freedom, this will most certainly lead to a backlash from its citizens which it will try to crush and bludgeon. But it is impossible to keep 1.4 billion people quite forever. It is a pressure cooker in china, how freedom of speech, right to criticize govt and it’s policies means jail or death— such things can work ONLY in a poor country at best.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by narenpande1

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

Everybody knows US has 10 carriers - more than the rest of the world combined. 

 

But wars are not won on weapon count only  but tactics and allies and psychological warfare. 

Nice changing of the goal-posts. for any war with China, the US does not NEED India. You brought in the naval prowess of India and now you retreat when told the USN doesn't need IN. Thank you for the admission.

 

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

For all its economic strength, South Korea with the best of American technology and 10 times higher defense budget than North Korea would get smoked by North Korea if America did not intervene.

 

Strawman. Completely irrelevant and different scenario. South Korea's simple military reality is, its capital sits 50Kms from the DMZ. Hence Korean Pen is a high-stakes military scenario as their capital is immediately threatened in ANY escalation. 

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

I am not comparing numbers and strength with the US. For all their might, they got plundered in Vietnam and Afghanistan. 

 

 

Their navy did not. Their navy was not really useful there. Completely inapplicable with China, where Chinese string of pearls are super vulnerable to the USN. 

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

 

They need us as much as we need them. 

No. They do not. Stop your jingoism about India. 

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

China is what it is, because the US and the west outsourced millions of jobs there and allowed china entry into WTO. 

 

True. 

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

We too need military technology economic backing - they need in us a strong countervailing force to China in Asia. And we are the only country in the world who can do that. If china dominates Asia with a free hand, they will venture out of Asia and challenge US. US wants to pin them to Asia and it’s periphery.

They don't need us for surveillance on China. Diego Garcia and Phillipines region provides all the surveillance they need. They don't care about Chinas activities in Tibet- the only part India can help in.

And yes, all true. Does not mean they need us more than we need them. CHina's rise is a strategic threat to them, its a far bigger threat to us. 

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

 

You know very little if you say Chinese icbm tech is better than ours just by way of distance. Our rockets are solid fuel  based which is  a much much greater advantage over Chinese liquid fuel based icbms.

It is and it is by some distance. Their ICBM tech is far more proven than ours is. 

 

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

Our Ballstic missiles have much lower circular error probable than any Chinese missile - which means they are way more accurate.

Yeah...no. 

 

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

also please remember - we had a first try success with mangalyan - an extraordinary feat.  China is not even close to that. 

Our rocket engineering is world clsss and better than theirs at bare minimum.

China put up a fricking space station. Way harder and way more sophisticated than a step-well orbitally boosted Mars mission. 

Our rocket engineering is NOT better. Since you know jack$hit of the topic, let me give you a hint : the 'industrial overlap' in rocket engines and air force happens in the design and building of the fan blades and rocket combustion chamber. They build their own jet engines FAR better than we build ours. So no, their rocket tech is far ahead of ours. 

 

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

China may be 20 years ahead of us economically, but 20 years are minuscule in the life and destiny of a nation at the same time a lot can change in 20 years.

China is more like 50 years ahead of us realistically. China started 20 years before us but China has posted more than a decade straight of 10% GDP growth per annum. We can't even put 3 9% years together.

 

3 minutes ago, narenpande1 said:

afterall what was china in 1998 ?

 

the reality is India is at a take off stage and china is on a decline. India must play it smart to achieve absolute parity with China by 2050 and then dominate Asia beyond that.

 

as a nation becomes more prosperous, its citizens demand more freedom, especially after seeing the freedom in the western world. The CCP denies freedom, this will most certainly lead to a backlash from its citizens which it will try to crush and bludgeon. But it is impossible to keep 1.4 billion people quite forever. It is a pressure cooker in china, how freedom of speech, right to criticize govt and it’s policies means jail or death— such things can work ONLY in a poor country at best.

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing more than ignorant, vacuous nonsense coming out of Indian pride. You've clearly not been to China, you know jack $hit about China. People like you are why nobody actually takes India seriously and Indian reputation in diplomatic circles is one of 'tries to pretend stronger than they are'

[narenpande1]

20 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Nice changing of the goal-posts. for any war with China, the US does not NEED India. You brought in the naval prowess of India and now you retreat when told the USN doesn't need IN. Thank you for the admission.

 

 

Strawman. Completely irrelevant and different scenario. South Korea's simple military reality is, its capital sits 50Kms from the DMZ. Hence Korean Pen is a high-stakes military scenario as their capital is immediately threatened in ANY escalation. 

 

Their navy did not. Their navy was not really useful there. Completely inapplicable with China, where Chinese string of pearls are super vulnerable to the USN. 

No. They do not. Stop your jingoism about India. 

 

True. 

They don't need us for surveillance on China. Diego Garcia and Phillipines region provides all the surveillance they need. They don't care about Chinas activities in Tibet- the only part India can help in.

And yes, all true. Does not mean they need us more than we need them. CHina's rise is a strategic threat to them, its a far bigger threat to us. 

It is and it is by some distance. Their ICBM tech is far more proven than ours is. 

 

Yeah...no. 

 

China put up a fricking space station. Way harder and way more sophisticated than a step-well orbitally boosted Mars mission. 

Our rocket engineering is NOT better. Since you know jack$hit of the topic, let me give you a hint : the 'industrial overlap' in rocket engines and air force happens in the design and building of the fan blades and rocket combustion chamber. They build their own jet engines FAR better than we build ours. So no, their rocket tech is far ahead of ours. 

 

China is more like 50 years ahead of us realistically. China started 20 years before us but China has posted more than a decade straight of 10% GDP growth per annum. We can't even put 3 9% years together.

 

Nothing more than ignorant, vacuous nonsense coming out of Indian pride. You've clearly not been to China, you know jack $hit about China. People like you are why nobody actually takes India seriously and Indian reputation in diplomatic circles is one of 'tries to pretend stronger than they are'

 And dimwit - prove that chinese icbm tech is better than ours or stfu.

 

yes we can’t string together 3 9 % years because we can’t demolish towns upon towns and lay a red carpet for overseas manufacturing without a political backlash and common man revolt. No democracy can dimwit.

 

do you have first hand experience of their jet engines ? Are they combat proven ? Hell no, so shut the F up. 

 

A space station is ridiculously expensive to build. It is not about capability but ISROs budget. China is atleast 10 years away from a successful mars orbital mission. 

 

You must be a real thick head in geopolitical understanding. A puny Philippines can do nothing. India is the only long term economic power weight that dna match and exceed China this century.

 

chinas nominal gdp in 2006 is same as ours at the start of 2018. That’s 12 years, let’s say 15 years or even 20 years to make a dimwit like you happy. 50 years ? You must be a real thick head brainwashed dude

 

 

If the US does not need us, they would not be courting us. 

 

For any nation to succeed in a geopolitical battle strong allies and economy is a must.

the former USSR was a military monster, they could smash the current china 10 times over for fun. Yet they were brought to their knees by smart US geopolitical play.

 

china stands all alone by itself. Most of the west wants to see China go down. 

 

They can shut the import tap when push comes to shove. They shut the oil import tap from USSR and destroyed it.

 

it is for India to play its geopolitical cards well, and lay a platform for 2 decades of

7.5 % to 8 % growth and Watch China stagnate in its excess production capacity for which there are no takers. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by narenpande1

[narenpande1]

Talk about great minds thinking alike..

 

A China expert and one of India’s greatest diplomatic brain Shyam Saran echos my thoughts exactly.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economictimes.com/news/defence/india-needs-to-be-concerned-about-chinas-inroads-shyam-saran/amp_articleshow/62692732.cms

[chewy]

Having been to China several times and both to urban and rural areas, what ever argument regarding Chinese growth built on deck of cards or all those ghost cities, but from first hand experience Chinese cities and infra are way way way ahead of anything India currently has to offer, much cleaner and better organised.

 

easy to get around major Chinese cities, the train network is amazing, sense of security and safety is on par with other developed countries 

[narenpande1]

44 minutes ago, chewy said:

Having been to China several times and both to urban and rural areas, what ever argument regarding Chinese growth built on deck of cards or all those ghost cities, but from first hand experience Chinese cities and infra are way way way ahead of anything India currently has to offer, much cleaner and better organised.

 

easy to get around major Chinese cities, the train network is amazing, sense of security and safety is on par with other developed countries 

 Have been to China in 2014 and I don’t disagree. 

 

The point is they have exhausted venues of growth and they are an enormously leveraged economy. Even the most nationalistic Chinese economists feel they are one pin prick away from an economic fallout. Never has any country escaped the perils of an enormous debt fueled asset bubble. And there is only one outcome to bubbles - they burst sooner or later.

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-04/china-headed-1929-style-depression

 

First world infrastructure but emerging market, middle income salary - this is a classic case of middle income trap and has happened in Latin America before. China built everything new , so it looks great, but 

Brazil and Argentina have been through that phase in the 80s already and are perpetually stuck in a middle income trap.

so too will china .. due to policies that lead to extraordinary unprecedented growth  but it has run its course 

 

Building great roads, rails and high speed connectivity cannot guarantee growth beyond a period of time. 

 

I went to Osaka and Tokyo the same here in 2014, and they are 10 times better connected than shenzhen, Shanghai or Beijing. Incredibly more cleaner and efficient. You just have to visit there once to know what I am talking about.

 

but japan is barely growing at 1 %.

 

the median age in China due to their 1 child policy is 37. As much or greater than US, when the per capita income is 1/6th that of the US. 20% of their population is above 65 and increasing at a first clip as population growth is 0.5 % or less.

 

Add 33 Trillion dollars of debt and slowing export to the mix and you have a complete recipe of an economic hard landing 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by narenpande1