King Kohli vs Sir Viv in ODIs

[FischerTal]

i know many oldies will gasp in shock at this comparison but looking at his figures, i believe King Kohli will either overtake Sir Viv as the greatest ODI batsman of all time or end up directly behind him at second place at the end of his career. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by FischerTal

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, FischerTal said:

i know many oldies will gasp in shock at this comparison but looking at his figures, i believe King Kohli will either overtake Sir Viv as the greatest ODI batsman of all time or end up directly behind him at second place at the end of his career. 

Viv had a big decline in the second half of his career. Currently, we are seeing Kohli's peak years. It's likely that his record will climb down. Another point is that Kohli is not that far ahead of his competition - in his playing days, around 5-6 players have avgd over 50. ABDV, Amla, Tuk-Tuk Dhoni, Babar Azam, Jonathan Trott, and VK himself. Lastly, Viv was a true King in ODI knockouts, whereas Kohli's "best" is a couple of useful 30s and 40s. He will, however, have a chance to rectify it in 2019.

[Vk1]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

Viv had a big decline in the second half of his career. Currently, we are seeing Kohli's peak years. It's likely that his record will climb down. Another point is that Kohli is not that far ahead of his competition - in his playing days, around 5-6 players have avgd over 50. ABDV, Amla, Tuk-Tuk Dhoni, Babar Azam, Jonathan Trott, and VK himself. Lastly, Viv was a true King in ODI knockouts, whereas Kohli's "best" is a couple of useful 30s and 40s. He will, however, have a chance to rectify it in 2019.

Absolutely... Never saw him bat but going by the records and opinions Viv is on another level.

[MechEng]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Viv had a big decline in the second half of his career. Currently, we are seeing Kohli's peak years. It's likely that his record will climb down. Another point is that Kohli is not that far ahead of his competition - in his playing days, around 5-6 players have avgd over 50. ABDV, Amla, Tuk-Tuk Dhoni, Babar Azam, Jonathan Trott, and VK himself. Lastly, Viv was a true King in ODI knockouts, whereas Kohli's "best" is a couple of useful 30s and 40s. He will, however, have a chance to rectify it in 2019.

Viv's decline was in tests, in ODIs he was still awesome. He got his highest ODI score in 1987 World Cup.

[kruiser]

Why do we need to compare? Both are undoubted greats who would have been great in any era! 

[kira]

7 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Viv had a big decline in the second half of his career. Currently, we are seeing Kohli's peak years. It's likely that his record will climb down. Another point is that Kohli is not that far ahead of his competition - in his playing days, around 5-6 players have avgd over 50. ABDV, Amla, Tuk-Tuk Dhoni, Babar Azam, Jonathan Trott, and VK himself. Lastly, Viv was a true King in ODI knockouts, whereas Kohli's "best" is a couple of useful 30s and 40s. He will, however, have a chance to rectify it in 2019.

Who were the great Odi bowlers that viv faced? Odi cricket was still in infancy during viv's time, and viv struggled big time against spin, he won't have survived in the warne-murali era

[MechEng]

In Viv's era bowlers had test match approach to bowling, they wanted to get the team all out instead of restricting the scoring rate. Sure the bigger advantage here was that batsmen could easily find the gaps to hit fours but it involved risk since you knew that the bowler wanted your wicket instead of restricting run scoring rate.

[velu]

2 minutes ago, kira said:

Who were the great Odi bowlers that viv faced? Odi cricket was still in infancy during viv's time, and viv struggled big time against spin, he won't have survived in the warne-murali era

thompson , lillie , botham etc ..

without helmet  

[kira]

1 minute ago, velu said:

thompson , lillie , botham etc ..

without helmet  

Elaborate on the etc.? And even the three you mentioned are no where near the quality of ambrose, mcgrath, warne murali, starc, pollock, donald, etc. Let's face it, viv played in an era when there weren't many great odi players, viv's odi record is similar to bradman's test record, both were greats but they also benefitted from playing in an era when the standard of cricket was not upto the mark ( only talking about odi cricket in viv's case, test cricket was top class in his era)

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, kira said:

Who were the great Odi bowlers that viv faced? Odi cricket was still in infancy during viv's time, and viv struggled big time against spin, he won't have survived in the warne-murali era

There are not many "great" bowlers than VK has faced. My own opinion is that ODI bowling peaked from late 80s to early 2000s. In the period that Viv played, and in the one that VK plays, there have not been that many great bowlers compared to the 1990s to early 2000s.

 

The main difference is that Viv played in an era where the balance between bat and ball was a lot more equitable. Pitches, bats, fielding restrictions, rules, etc. have all tilted in favour of batsmen - even if we assume that the bowling was "worse" then compared to now, these factors more than compensate. But, this is my subjective opinion, and each person will have their own take.

[velu]

5 minutes ago, kira said:

Elaborate on the etc.? And even the three you mentioned are no where near the quality of ambrose, mcgrath, warne murali, starc, pollock, donald, etc. Let's face it, viv played in an era when there weren't many great odi players, viv's odi record is similar to bradman's test record, both were greats but they also benefitted from playing in an era when the standard of cricket was not upto the mark ( only talking about odi cricket in viv's case, test cricket was top class in his era)

 

he never dominated ambrose , mcgrtah , donald etc ..

not sure abt who won in the contest between pollack , murali etc

he clearly won agsint warne ..

 

viv at one point had average of 50++ woth SR of 100 when 35 average and 65 SR is the norm ..

 

[Vijy]

11 minutes ago, BeardedAladdin said:

You forgot Ambati Rayudu and Ryan ten doeschate. They're also in your elite group of "true King" players that "avgd over 50".

Yes, I did forget these two. It bolsters my point that avg 50 in this era was not just restricted to ATG players. For instance, of this crowd, I would not consider ten doeschate, Rayudu, and even Trott as ATGs. Babar's career is too raw to make any call either way.

[rtmohanlal]

The eras Viv played and Virat is playing now are chalk and cheese apart on different aspects.Naturally it is really really difficult to reach on a conclusion  based on pure stats.But the fact that Viv never wore a helmet( a unique factor) and being so far ahead of his contemporaries  gives Viv the clear edge. Similar is the case with Sachin. 'Huge pressure of expectations' factor,clearly better performances in world cups and tournament finals  and  being  better batsman(chaser too) against  high quality bowling makes Sachin the better still for me.    

[SLICKR392]

Viv never wore a helmet, Viv played the game in a different era, quality of opposition...STFU! What Kohli is doing is not being repeated by anyone else in the 'current' era is enough to prove how effing good the guy is. Sports change, you adapt to it, and every era has it's own hardship and pressure.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, BeardedAladdin said:

lol, then why even mention them in the first place

 

 

 

to note that avg above 50 is quite easy these days compared to the 1990s and 1980s.

[Gollum]

Viv was much ahead of his peers than any other ODI batsman. In an era where 220 was the norm and top order aggressive batsmen like Greenidge and Srikanth had SR of 65-72 the GOAT averaged 47+ at SR 90+.

 

During his time Viv had to contend with

1. 2/3 bouncers per over.

2. Red dukes/SG ball which doesn't stop moving after 5 overs.

3. No helmet.

4. No fielding restrictions, you could have all 11 players manning the ropes in the death overs in case the batsman was going bonkers.

5. Balance between bat and ball, 90s era peaked in ODI bowling department but 70s and 80s had better balance to make up, green tops were not the exception and even trundlers had their day in the sun......no way is a bowling attack we fielded in 1983 ever going to compete in modern day cricket, but times were different then and even a Madan Lal could get extravagant movement off the pitch.

6. Better ODI teams (% wise) like India, Pak, Eng, Aus, NZ. 90s had more strong teams but modern day cricket scene has may be 5 decent teams and 5 minnows. No Bangladesh-Zimbabwe to boost stats either and the then minnows Lanka wouldn't get to play much against the big boys during Viv's career (except WCs).

 

Viv is the GOAT in my book. Kohli has a gaping record in WC knockouts, 70 odd in 5 innings is pathetic irrespective of how you spin it, he has taken mental midgetry to the next level whenever the team needs him. Recall the CT F when Amir violated him twice in 2 balls, Kohli was smiling and giggling like a star struck kid while Amir was mouthing him off. Put a Viv in his place and Amir would have gone home crying after that, such level of shamelessness and chicken heartedness has never been witnessed before on a cricket field. I would choose Shikhar Dhawan over Kohli 10 times out of 10 in a big match, irrespective of technical shortcomings or less talent compared to his peers, man's got balls and you need balls out there when the heat is on. Kohli may put an end to all of this in 2019 WC but even if he scores a match winning 100 in the F like Viv, he will need to maintain this average and SR till he retires to be mentioned as co-GOAT. He needs to distinguish himself statistically from his peers his entire career like Viv did during his time. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Gollum

[MechEng]

I don't understand the not wearing a helmet factor for Viv. It's not that he was forced not to wear one, he never wore a helmet by choice. His team mates Greenidge and Haynes wore a helmet though.

 

Especially after the Phillip Hughes incident we must stop glorifying not wearing protection gears, it's a game not a war.

Edited February 8, 2018 by MechEng

[Gollum]

44 minutes ago, BeardedAladdin said:

 

"Anna apne yeh lukky charm!"

 

 

What's the point of this post?

[vvvslaxman]

Viv Richards defensive shots would go all the way to boundary. That guy had this aura. chewing bubble gum and taking the attack to the opposition. There are lot of similarities i observe. He had incredible reflex, hand eye coordination. Where i would put Kohli ahead of Viv is Kohli is in different league against spin.  Kohli has more gears than Viv Richards in the sense the way he constructs the innings is a lesson for young players.  There are many common traits. They both are fearless. They play shots all around the wicket. They both stick to conventional shots rather than fancy shots. We can compare their skills. But you cannot say one is better than other conclusively

[Jimmy Cliff]

There is no comparison as of now. Viv is the GOAT. Kohli is the 2nd best batsman of his era with AB slightly ahead.