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King Kohli vs Sir Viv in ODIs


FischerTal

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@vvvslaxman You have to account for inflated ODI scores in the current era. ODI Batsmen have their stats inflated while bowlers should be rated better than what their stats seem to suggest. You followed 80s cricket, I did not. Surely the average scores then were meagre. I saw cricket in the late 90s and then 260 was a winning total, now even 350 isn't safe.

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Just now, Gollum said:

@vvvslaxman You have to account for inflated ODI scores in the current era. ODI Batsmen have their stats inflated while bowlers should be rated better than what their stats seem to suggest. You followed 80s cricket, I did not. Surely the average scores then were meagre. I saw cricket in the late 90s and then 260 was a winning total, now even 350 isn't safe.

Yes Meagre. I don't deny he was far and ahead of his contemporaries.  But we cannot trivialize Kohli's outrageous consistency by comparing with Viv. We are comparing Richards with Kohli when Kohli is 29 years old. Most of the batsmen hit their peak at 30. Imagine what this guy is going to unleash once he hits the peak. He is going to leave Viv, Sachin everyone way behind once he gets there. 

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23 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Yes Meagre. I don't deny he was far and ahead of his contemporaries.  But we cannot trivialize Kohli's outrageous consistency by comparing with Viv. We are comparing Richards with Kohli when Kohli is 29 years old. Most of the batsmen hit their peak at 30. Imagine what this guy is going to unleash once he hits the peak. He is going to leave Viv, Sachin everyone way behind once he gets there. 

Hope so, more importantly let us hope he wins a few big ICC trophies. It is irritating to know that post 2003 WI has as many ICC tourneys as us and Pak just 1 less. We have been consistently very good in white ball cricket the last 15 years or so, yet the trophy cabinet doesn't show. 

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27 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Hope so, more importantly let us hope he wins a few big ICC trophies. It is irritating to know that post 2003 WI has as many ICC tourneys as us and Pak just 1 less. We have been consistently very good in white ball cricket the last 15 years or so, yet the trophy cabinet doesn't show. 

Playing the key innings is very crucial to win the top ODI tournaments. That is when the opponents are fielding their best 11, rather than resting their top players. It becomes a very tough task to win a major tournament as compared to bilateral series. 

 

In 2011 there were 4 Indian batsmen in top 10 batters list and 2 Indian bowlers in Top 10 wicket takers.

 

Key people starred in kncokouts. Sachin scoring 85 in semis. Once the runs are onboard against Pak then they usually crumble under scoreboard pressure. All 5 bowlers took 2 wickets each. There was no bowler who released the pressure as no bowler gave over 6 runs per over. Sachin played a match winning 85, when other batsmen were not able to convert their starts.

 

In finals too, the bowlers did a fairly good job by restricting SL to 274. Gauti played match winning 97 and Dhoni a match winning 91.

 

Hope the forthcoming WC, we will see key players play the match winning knocks or bowl well in key matches. That is what we have lacked since the 2011 WC. Somehow the new players have to handle the key matches in top tournaments well. Hope this lot can show that they can do it like the 2011 WC winning squad.

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14 hours ago, Gollum said:

@vvvslaxman England wasn't a weak team in the mid 70s-80s (Viv's career timeline). They had a seriously good ODI team then that made 3 finals in the 1st 5 WCs, they also won 2 test series' in India..some genuine ATGs in 80s England, only in a couple of phases after that, under Vaughan and Strauss have the post 2000 England been comparable to 80s England. Put that England team in today's era and I can see them competing for the test mace.

 

Aus was very very good in the 1st half of Viv's career, then entered a slump before showing signs of resurgence under Border. Viv played against some seriously deadly Aus bowling and came up on top. 

 

India was mediocre during Viv's career but we had our spin quartet (1st half of Viv's career) and scoring against them was going to a challenge for anyone. Besides for a few years in the middle, we were a damn good ODI side. 

LOL, you seem to exponentially magnify Viv's achievements, scores, outfits while at the same time exponentially minimize Virat's achievements. 

 

Here's the comparison for you: Virat averages over 40 against EVERY single team he has played against. Viv struggled to maintain an average of 30 against the ONLY other pace attack that one could consider equal to the West Indies.  

 

If Virat were to retire tomorrow, he has already achieved more than Viv had in his career by any metric. Virat has about 2700 more runs in 30 more innings. We won't even touch 22 more centuries. Which by itself is 3 times of your Caribbean legend and might be the grand total of 3 of their legends put together playing in the 80s, LOL. 

 

If Richards wanted to catch up to Virat in terms of runs he'd have to score at least 90 runs in the each and every next thirty innings he were to play to get to a par score of where Virat stands now. 

 

Your homerism for Viv cannot and should not cloud your judgement and realization that what you're viewing currently is perhaps the greatest one day batsman ever to play this game, rivaled by only one other stalwart. 

 

Tendlya.

Edited by urnotserious
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6 hours ago, urnotserious said:

5a7dfb711eeab_ScreenShot2018-02-09at1_49_42PM.thumb.png.463c4cebfe66711cd520d6cc7409df2e.png

LOL, you seem to exponentially magnify Viv's achievements, scores, outfits while at the same time exponentially minimize Virat's achievements. 

 

Here's the comparison for you: Virat averages over 40 against EVERY single team he has played against. Viv struggled to maintain an average of 30 against the ONLY other pace attack that one could consider equal to the West Indies.  

 

If Virat were to retire tomorrow, he has already achieved more than Viv had in his career by any metric. Virat has about 2700 more runs in 30 more innings. We won't even touch 22 more centuries. Which by itself is 3 times of your Caribbean legend and might be the grand total of 3 of their legends put together playing in the 80s, LOL. 

 

If Richards wanted to catch up to Virat in terms of runs he'd have to score at least 90 runs in the each and every next thirty innings he were to play to get to a par score of where Virat stands now. 

 

Your homerism for Viv cannot and should not cloud your judgement and realization that what you're viewing currently is perhaps the greatest one day batsman ever to play this game, rivaled by only one other stalwart. 

 

Tendlya.

Yup average ODI scores in 80s, 90s and now are same. Kudos for your brilliant understanding of cricket. 

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4 hours ago, Gollum said:

Yup average ODI scores in 80s, 90s and now are same. Kudos for your brilliant understanding of cricket. 

Yep, its harder today than it was then especially considering the amount of analysis and cricket being played. Not to mention, Viv struggled against Pak and didn't have to face his own bowling attack makes his average of "47" kinda hollow. 

 

Those Caribbean glasses you have on make you look and sound ignorant about cricket. Take'em off. 

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10 minutes ago, urnotserious said:

Yep, its harder today than it was then especially considering the amount of analysis and cricket being played. Not to mention, Viv struggled against Pak and didn't have to face his own bowling attack makes his average of "47" kinda hollow. 

 

Those Caribbean glasses you have on make you look and sound ignorant about cricket. Take'em off. 

You couldn't have picked a more apt username. 

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5 minutes ago, Gollum said:

You couldn't have picked a more apt username. 

Personal attacks, cute. LOL. 

 

I guess repeating Viv is the best ad nauseum while having evidence thrown in your face to the contrary can result into frustration. Viv isn't even the second best ODI batsman. Let that sink in. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Some of the arguments here :facepalm:. I am ready to accept Kohli as better than Viv if the usual suspects agree that Shakib al Hasan is a better A/R than Kapil Dev. 

He has half of Kapil's test wickets and not enough runs. In ODI, you may have a point. 

 

Virat on the other hand has 2700 more runs than Viv in 30 more innings. Viv would have to score at least 90 runs/innings in his next 30 to innings around the world at a quicker pace than he ever has to equal Virat. 

 

Its highly unlikely though given Viv's inability or limited ability to hit one day hundreds. Even Dhoni an almost washed out wicket keeper has 10 centuries. 

 

You can't be the best ODI batsman of all time with a mediocre record of 11 centuries. LOL. 

Edited by urnotserious
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5 hours ago, kira said:

Viv is the second most overrated player in history of cricket after Bradman, I pity the people who fall for the propaganda of nostalgia faggots instead of using their own brain

Viv over rated??? Do you sincerely feel that the likes of Sachin & Kohli would have been as successful as they turned out to be with out helmets????

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Just now, rtmohanlal said:

Viv over rated??? Do you sincerely feel that the likes of Sachin & Kohli would have been as successful as they turned out to be with out helmets????

Of course, sachin is a league above viv, it is highly offensive to even question sachin's success. 

Regarding kohli, yeah he would have been successful, no helmets is so overhyped that it has become ridiculous, even tailenders use to bat without helmets in that era, many mediocre bats batted without helmet in those days and many mediocre players played some great innings without helmets, so yeah a champion player like kohli would have succeeded without helmet as well.

 

Like I said before, nostaliga faggots keep overrating players from the past 

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A 16 year old sachin got hit square in the face from a fast and furious delivery from waqar younis and he still got up and made a match saving fifty and here some people are questioning whether sachin GOD tendulkar would have succeeded without helmet LOL 

Edited by kira
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36 minutes ago, kira said:

Of course, sachin is a league above viv, it is highly offensive to even question sachin's success. 

You do realize Viv averages more than Sachin at higher SR in an era of lower average scores. 90s Sachin was inferior in these 2 parameters, 2000s Sachin was inferior in these 2 parameters. Assuming Kohli is better than Viv because of better stats, how is Sachin a league above Viv with inferior stats? Moreover Viv scored a match winning 100 in a WC F while Sachin choked in both his finals. 

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17 minutes ago, FischerTal said:

even sunny g batted without helmets no?

He is rated very very highly, no? Viru, Smith, Cook, Langer, Warner may have similar stats as him and Hayden better stats but no one ever disputes Gavaskar's position in an all time XI. 

 

And he wore skull caps, not helmets. Ofc lesser protection than helmet but still not enough protection, Marshall almost killed him with a bouncer once. Imran pleaded before him after that incident to switch to helmets because he was a good friend of Sunny and seriously concerned, Sunny said every great batsman has one such incident and he had had his. Very difficult to bat without helmet no matter what ICF experts here say...when there is a real fear of getting killed your feet stop moving after a few bouncers and btw bouncers were liberally used back then, none of this bouncer limit nonsense we have these days. And it is not just helmet, many of the old timers wore no chest guard, arm guard, thigh pad, shin pad either. 

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52 minutes ago, kira said:

A 16 year old sachin got hit square in the face from a fast and furious delivery from waqar younis and he still got up and made a match saving fifty and here some people are questioning whether sachin GOD tendulkar would have succeeded without helmet LOL 

It is not as to whether Sachin would not have succeeded with out helmets or not. It is as to whether he would have succeeded in the levels that turned out to be  in the end.That is the question.Keep in mind Viv's era was much more bowler friendly in every sense.I think you are well aware of the treatment ENG batsmen especially Brian Close got from the 1976 Windies bowlers.My  opinions on Viv and Sachin are based on those sorts of matters.

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