zen Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Khota said: Let me put my point forward in another way. Can the same athlete be asked to to do 100 m dash and marathon? No. Similarly batting and bowling are different skillsets. One person cannot do both. Thanks for the comic relief express bowling 1 Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 8 minutes ago, Khota said: Pandya in all instances should have been replaced by a real bowler. Except for tests the batting depth was never called upon. Any real bowler could have done more damage. But our batting fell short in test cricket wht was the need of extra bowler and ur extra batsman rohit was awful on whole tour 8 minutes ago, Khota said: It goes back to what I have been saying . Allrounders do not exist. Let me put my point forward in another way. Can the same athlete be asked to to do 100 m dash and marathon? No. For the love of god stop comparing cricket with other sport, i dnt knw other sport goes for 5 days 8 minutes ago, Khota said: Similarly batting and bowling are different skillsets. One person cannot do both. ha imran , kapil, kallis, sober, cairns, klusner, flintoff to mazak krte the na Link to comment
Khota Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, zen said: Thanks for the comic relief I am glad you are relieved. Link to comment
zen Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: For the love of god stop comparing cricket with other sport, i dnt knw other sport goes for 5 days ha imran , kapil, kallis, sober, cairns, klusner, flintoff to mazak krte the na For many, the law of diminishing returns can be hard to understand. For them, if eating is good, eating more is better For e.g, if you play your best players based on form and conditions, the question is what return is playing that extra batsmen or bowler going to provide In test, the extra bowler is likely to be underbowled, while the extra batsmen could not have a desired impact. In LOIs, since RR is a key factor, you are likely to see wkts fall as batsmen fall in trying to up/maintain the tempo. The all-rounder provides that cushion Then you also have to consider, the bell curve, where 68% fall within 1 SD. So it is likely that the team is not playing an outlier as the extra batsman or bowler. The quality difference b/w the extra batsmen/bowler and the all rounder may not be too significant On the other hand, a good all- rounder is already an outlier in his domain, closer to those within the 1 SD. Which provides the team with a Swiss Army knife option Additionally, All rounders tend to be power hitters too, which gives the team extra flexibility Pandya, unlike other options such as Binny, can bowl with pace. While his batting is very good for the lower middle order position. Making him a no brainer selection. And he is yet to reach his peak. Only way, he can be overlooked is if his performances go downhill The guy looks to contribute with the bat and ball, while keeping Ind in the game or changing the game with his fielding, an often overlooked factor! Edited March 21, 2018 by zen Ankit_sharma03, RAZPOR and ThePhenomenal1 3 Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 2 hours ago, zen said: For many, the law of diminishing returns can be hard to understand. For them, if eating is good, eating more is better For e.g, if you play your best players based on form and conditions, the question is what return is playing that extra batsmen or bowler going to provide In test, the extra bowler is likely to be underbowled, while the extra batsmen could not have a desired impact. In LOIs, since RR is a key factor, you are likely to see wkts fall as batsmen fall in trying to up/maintain the tempo. The all-rounder provides that cushion Then you also have to consider, the bell curve, where 68% fall within 1 SD. So it is likely that the team is not playing an outlier as the extra batsman or bowler. The quality difference b/w the extra batsmen/bowler and the all rounder may not be too significant On the other hand, a good all- rounder is already an outlier in his domain, closer to those within the 1 SD. Which provides the team with a Swiss Army knife option Additionally, All rounders tend to be power hitters too, which gives the team extra flexibility Pandya, unlike other options such as Binny, can bowl with pace. While his batting is very good for the lower middle order position. Making him a no brainer selection. And he is yet to reach his peak. Only way, he can be overlooked is if his performances go downhill True, at the end of the day we need to look at what our team needs After ages we have bowlers who bowl 140+ and in order to make them bowl at full steam we have to give them that 12-15 over rest which is provided by a 5th bowler. Now u cant use part timers as 12-15 overs are enough time to take a game away. Neither we have sachin, sehwag, ganguly to fill up over so a 5th bowler need is must So many can say lets play a complete bowler Well imagine saha, ashwin, jadeja, bhuvi , bumrah, shami ........thats a long tail specially when u have inconsistent players like vijay, rahul, rahane and one more batsman like pujara who has question mark over his overseas perfomance. A balance is needed so in comes pandya and he has done better then our 6th batsman rohit sharma 2 hours ago, zen said: The guy looks to contribute with the bat and ball, while keeping Ind in the game or changing the game with his fielding, an often overlooked factor! Also in the field, that runout of amla...... its all about 20 wkts and if a fielder like pandya can create 1-2 wkts due to excellent fielding.....its a bonus zen 1 Link to comment
Khota Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: But our batting fell short in test cricket wht was the need of extra bowler and ur extra batsman rohit was awful on whole tour For the love of god stop comparing cricket with other sport, i dnt knw other sport goes for 5 days ha imran , kapil, kallis, sober, cairns, klusner, flintoff to mazak krte the na A true batsman in SA would have easily outperformed pandya. Why is that difficult for you to understand I really dont know. Cricket is similar to most other team sports. All cars have the same compression ignition engine though some may have more cylinders than others. In the last part you have answered my question better than I ever could. So according to you and correctly so in last one hundred years of Indian cricket history there was one allrounder kapil Dev. So if one comes along in 100 years why waste time looking ofr one. Always go with specialist not part timers. Link to comment
Khota Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 4 hours ago, zen said: For many, the law of diminishing returns can be hard to understand. For them, if eating is good, eating more is better For e.g, if you play your best players based on form and conditions, the question is what return is playing that extra batsmen or bowler going to provide In test, the extra bowler is likely to be underbowled, while the extra batsmen could not have a desired impact. In LOIs, since RR is a key factor, you are likely to see wkts fall as batsmen fall in trying to up/maintain the tempo. The all-rounder provides that cushion Then you also have to consider, the bell curve, where 68% fall within 1 SD. So it is likely that the team is not playing an outlier as the extra batsman or bowler. The quality difference b/w the extra batsmen/bowler and the all rounder may not be too significant On the other hand, a good all- rounder is already an outlier in his domain, closer to those within the 1 SD. Which provides the team with a Swiss Army knife option Additionally, All rounders tend to be power hitters too, which gives the team extra flexibility Pandya, unlike other options such as Binny, can bowl with pace. While his batting is very good for the lower middle order position. Making him a no brainer selection. And he is yet to reach his peak. Only way, he can be overlooked is if his performances go downhill The guy looks to contribute with the bat and ball, while keeping Ind in the game or changing the game with his fielding, an often overlooked factor! For me this is also a case of law of diminishing returns. In one hundred years if we get one all rounder why should we spend energy looking for one? Link to comment
Khota Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, zen said: For many, the law of diminishing returns can be hard to understand. For them, if eating is good, eating more is better For e.g, if you play your best players based on form and conditions, the question is what return is playing that extra batsmen or bowler going to provide In test, the extra bowler is likely to be underbowled, while the extra batsmen could not have a desired impact. In LOIs, since RR is a key factor, you are likely to see wkts fall as batsmen fall in trying to up/maintain the tempo. The all-rounder provides that cushion Then you also have to consider, the bell curve, where 68% fall within 1 SD. So it is likely that the team is not playing an outlier as the extra batsman or bowler. The quality difference b/w the extra batsmen/bowler and the all rounder may not be too significant On the other hand, a good all- rounder is already an outlier in his domain, closer to those within the 1 SD. Which provides the team with a Swiss Army knife option Additionally, All rounders tend to be power hitters too, which gives the team extra flexibility Pandya, unlike other options such as Binny, can bowl with pace. While his batting is very good for the lower middle order position. Making him a no brainer selection. And he is yet to reach his peak. Only way, he can be overlooked is if his performances go downhill The guy looks to contribute with the bat and ball, while keeping Ind in the game or changing the game with his fielding, an often overlooked factor! Batsman and bowlers if selected as the best in their profession shoild be well within one sigma. Pandya may be within 1 std devd but that is almost like 68% which is very loose tolerance. If he is true alronder he should be contributing within few percentages of a average bowler and a batsman. That is just not possible day in day out. Edited March 21, 2018 by Khota Link to comment
ThePhenomenal1 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 We'll get pace allrounders only if we back Hardik and people see there is space for them in the team aka DEMAND! Just like now we've got an abundance of pace bowlers, we'll get pace all rounders once we build that culture express bowling 1 Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Khota said: A true batsman in SA would have easily outperformed pandya. Why is that difficult for you to understand I really dont know. Rohit sharma Murali vijay Pujara Kl rahul Dhawan All true batsman who came close to his score of 90+ 1 hour ago, Khota said: Cricket is similar to most other team sports. All cars have the same compression ignition engine though some may have more cylinders than others. Yet cricket requires a whole lot of different n many many skills 1 hour ago, Khota said: In the last part you have answered my question better than I ever could. So according to you and correctly so in last one hundred years of Indian cricket history there was one allrounder kapil Dev. So if one comes along in 100 years why waste time looking ofr one. Always go with specialist not part timers. Kapil dev didnt become The kapil dev overnight ....he was given chance and played for many yrs and then he became kapil Pandya has performed really well and has contributed in most games and more then specialist ............why shudnt he deserve a place A lot of times specialist dont give u the balance, and u ahve the see the team and its problems No two team in same sport or different sport will have same problem so why same solution. Jaisi marz waisi dawa, this team needs all rounder or say bits n pieces for the right balance. If disagree form me a team to show how does a specialist give balance n ill; question it Link to comment
zen Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Khota said: For me this is also a case of law of diminishing returns. In one hundred years if we get one all rounder why should we spend energy looking for one? Law of diminishing returns works when you have a reasonable amount already .... Your point is like saying that since Ind has usually had trundlers, why should we spend time looking for a fast bowler (or a quality wrist spinner for that matter)! Edited March 21, 2018 by zen Unstable Joe, express bowling, Ankit_sharma03 and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Khota Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 4 hours ago, zen said: Law of diminishing returns works when you have a reasonable amount already .... Your point is like saying that since Ind has usually had trundlers, why should we spend time looking for a fast bowler (or a quality wrist spinner for that matter)! Not really. If you expend lot of effort for no return then that is law of diminshing returns. There is so much time looking for allrounder and if you find one in 100 years then it is best to quit looking. Link to comment
Khota Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: Rohit sharma Murali vijay Pujara Kl rahul Dhawan All true batsman who came close to his score of 90+ Yet cricket requires a whole lot of different n many many skills Kapil dev didnt become The kapil dev overnight ....he was given chance and played for many yrs and then he became kapil Pandya has performed really well and has contributed in most games and more then specialist ............why shudnt he deserve a place A lot of times specialist dont give u the balance, and u ahve the see the team and its problems No two team in same sport or different sport will have same problem so why same solution. Jaisi marz waisi dawa, this team needs all rounder or say bits n pieces for the right balance. If disagree form me a team to show how does a specialist give balance n ill; question it How long you can milk that 90. rest of the time he was an abject failure. He was failure as a bowler and a batsman. Cricket does not require any extra skill compared to any other sports. let me go a step further and tell you cricket players are probably the worst athletes of any modern sports. I dont know if you remember kapil Devs debut or not. You could feel something different about him. I get no such feeling from Pandya. Edited March 22, 2018 by Khota Link to comment
zen Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Khota said: Not really. If you expend lot of effort for no return then that is law of diminshing returns. There is so much time looking for allrounder and if you find one in 100 years then it is best to quit looking. We have one good AR already, giving Ind good returns as discussed and pointed out by many. And when he peaks, he would potentially become even better It does not change the fact that teams look for quality fast bowlers / wrist spinners / ARs even if they have not gone one in 100 years or whatever. Not many teams would want a Vinay Kumar as its opening bowler Thank you for the comedy though! Edited March 22, 2018 by zen Link to comment
Khota Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 14 minutes ago, zen said: We have one good AR already, giving Ind good returns as discussed and pointed out by many. And when he peaks, he would potentially become even better It does not change the fact that teams look for quality fast bowlers / wrist spinners / ARs even if they have not gone one in 100 years or whatever. Not many teams would want a Vinay Kumar as its opening bowler Thank you for the comedy though! I never said Vinay Kumar should be opening bowler. All I am saying is one person cannot excel in two disciplines. Link to comment
zen Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, Khota said: I never said Vinay Kumar should be opening bowler. All I am saying is one person cannot excel in two disciplines. Your comedy continues .... I drew parallel using Vinay Kumar as an example You can say whatever you want. It does not change the fact that ARs exist Link to comment
Khota Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, zen said: Your comedy continues .... I drew parallel using Vinay Kumar as an example You can say whatever you want. It does not change the fact that ARs exist When you find one let me know. Link to comment
zen Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Just now, Khota said: When you find one let me know. Do you know what an allrounder is? Link to comment
Khota Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 14 minutes ago, zen said: Do you know what an allrounder is? One who can neither bat or bowl. That is what I see now a days. Link to comment
zen Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Khota said: One who can neither bat or bowl. That is what I see now a days. Based on your comments here, I won't be surprised that if you watched hockey thinking it to be cricket You don't know how to read stats, but you want to comment on it. You don't know what an allrounder is, but want to comment on it .... There is a saying - "look before you leap" Edited March 22, 2018 by zen Link to comment
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