'Vested Interest Of The Congress' :Remnants of Indira Gandhi's autocratic style

[sandtest]

*yawn* Too late to indulge in this round and round thing.....good night folks.

[kumble_rocks]

which was a question in response to my question in Post # 36 with no connection to the Tippu topic ... (even then I did answer it I think but you didnt like the answer ) Which means you still owe me an answer ... to Post # 36. And remeber we are discussing this Tippu issue way before any Thackeray issue was being discussed.

You did not answer point 2 .

[Lurker]

Whats this then ? (see your quoted postes below) and where am I discussing BT with you ? I asked you to comment on Tippu.

Those were all straight-to-the-point observations. Here is how it flows: 1) You have little knowledge about recent history, and you admit that yourself. 2) I have given atleast 3 examples to show observation 1. 3) If someone has little knowledge about history of his time, is blind to what happens around him, why would I waste time discussing another thing that happened 300 years back? You cant expect me to take you seriously when it comes to Historical discussions when your very credentials about recent history is under serious question. Clear now?

[kumble_rocks]

You did not Answer questions in Post # 36 ... which was before that ...

When did I say that I will answer point 36 ? I clearly stated that you got take a stand at especially point No 2 of post 38 to be taken seriously as a honest broker. Otherwise , the tag "Pseudo Nationalist " will be apt ...

[kumble_rocks]

If you dont like to answer then dont demand answers ... You made this into a popularity contest not me .... this has nothing to do with me or my opinions or my stand on Forum posters and who I supoprt and who I dont .... same applies to you ... I am not asking you to criticize any other posters ..for their views nor am I trying to enforce the concept of balanced views ... the facts as presented by neutral parties are there for you to see on this topic of Tippu ... if you want to debate on that topic you need to comment on the contents presented in those links and references as per debating ettiquettes.

Saar, the topic was never meant to be that of Tipu . Again , I still maintain , you will be scrutinized much more because you tend to wear your nationality up your sleeve along with DR and Sandy . Hence , I expect you to take a stand when a self proclaimed Hindutva like Sandy starts to eulogize a known South Indian hater like Thackeray ignoring his past crimes which by the way or on the same scale as Raj and then proceeds to selective criticize Raj . In fact , he started a thread to drive his point.

[CC1981]

But dont try and tell me that my views and the facts that accompany them will be of no consequence unless and untill I balance that out .. in this case by denouncing BT.

Sorry but that is rubbish. One of the FUNDAMENTAL points of advocacy is establishing credibility/neutrality. You are pronouncing a verdict/perpetuating a singular perspective on a religion. You therefore, *MUST* establish your neutrality/bias before your commentary can be given any credibility- that is the first doctrine of religious discussions, mate. For otherwise, there is no standard- you will say one thing, an islamist another, a bible thumper another and an atheist yet another. If any view is to claim 'truthfulness', which you are certainly trying to do, you *MUST* establish your own level of bias/neutrality and how that affects YOUR own viewpoints. That is not only logical, that is also called having intellectual integrity- something you quite obviously lack.

[CC1981]

Last time I checked Packard Humanities had nothing to do with VHP, RSS or VOD ... or for that matter Tippu himself ... (Never mind poor me)

I am not talking with a representative/founder of Packard Humanities- i am talking with *YOU*. The context and the focus *YOU* provide is the critical issue here. If quoting sources is all it takes to establish veracity, people can potray a zillion different angles as the 'truth' and quote sources in agreement, while ignoring sources which do not agree. Since you are a programmer, i will put it in 'your lingo' : There is a difference between data-mining and analysis. You engage in the former when discussing religion- and until you rectify that, it is tough to take anything you say seriously.

[CC1981]

wake-up...nobody is Islam obssessed

Oh hell yes you are and it is rather easy to prove too: You can have my entire ICF$ collection if you can go atleast 50 posts without mentioning 'islam' or talking about Islam. Hell i will give you a few extra posting margins too- lets see if you can go from 2100 posts to 2150 without mentioning Islam.

we are aware about the real danger faced by our nation in past, in present and in future

You are not aware of ANYTHING remotely close to being the 'real dangers facing our nation' or else you wouldn't be focussing on a chest-thumping ego-boosting ideological battle of pointless futility with your hinduvta superiorist attitude. And it is fairly easy to prove too- The NUMBER ONE danger facing India today - and possibly the BIGGEST factor why India is such a cesspool of mediocrity & ethnic/religious tensions is overpopulation. The NUMBER TWO problem is illiteracy followed closely by NUMBER THREE- climate change. In 50-100 years, Gangotri, Jamunotri and possibly even the glaciers feeding Indus and Brahmaputra are going to disappear. Gangotri has been receeding for decades- it has 100 more years at most before it disappears at current rate. Less i think, because climate change has consistently proven to be warmer than anticipated by the meteorologists. And when that happens, the problems India will face is of such epic proportions that it will make your descendants wish that their forefathers hadn't pointlessly wasted resources and energy in stupid religion-related issues, completely obsessed by one retarded concept of God or another. For if you think Ganga drying up isn't going to completely change India forever, cause MILLIONS of people to die due to starvation, relocation,migrations & water shortages, think again. But yes, you fundamentalist morons can keep proclaiming from the highest balconies on how you look after India's interests, how you know what the 'real perils' facing India are and how we sorry lil turncoat 'western-educated cretins' are trying to destroy India and our 'superior world-civilizing culture'. And in a sense you are correct- mera kuch nahi bigartaa hai. You cretins can destroy India by closing your eyes and ears to the world, being completely self-obsessed with stupid concepts of God like Ram or Krishna or Allah or Jehovah (there- i insulted 5 major religions- dont you ever f*cking dare call me a ROP-er). I am in Canada, i will live here, i will travel the world, visit India but always come back here- where people are saner, society is actually civilized ( unlike India, where it is one big cesspool of barbarism,living in the shadow of a civilization long dead) and my descendants will live in a nation that won't be devastated by climate change. People like you will definitely lead India to its ruin- but kyaa kare ? It won't be the first civilization to go up in a big puff of smoke due to some retarded people obsessing about 'dharma/karma/God/jannat' etc. Humanity will go on- long after India is dead- and that is all that matters, ultimately.

[CC1981]

which is why I provide links ... if people cannot take whats written in them its a problem with that person .... Iam merely the messenger.

You are a messenger carrying a message that is only one side of the story. Therefore, your message cannot be taken seriously. Learn to bear a balanced message if you want your message to make an impact. What you provided in your 'links' prove very little, really, since you pick only a certain type of links and certain type of narrow-minded topic on religion to focus on. Since we are questioning the messenger's neutrality/fairplay at the core, how can we take the message without a massive chunk of salt ? Sorry boss, but this is the dastoor of humanity- when the messenger is Hitler or Hitler-like( which you have been proven to be), the message gets ignored/fails to make an impression except that 'oh look, the Nazi is hyperventilating again!'. Unless you can do tapasya/penance for your Nazi-attitude, your message is irrelevant, i am sorry to say.

[kumble_rocks]

What is the other side of the Story in this discussion of Tippu ?

Huh ?? http://www.tipusultan.org. Did you even bother to read ? Tons of Newspaper articles praising Tipu http://www.tipusultan.org/even.htm or here - where other historians/authors speak his praise and present a totally different picture http://www.tipusultan.org/writ.htm or here to http://www.tipusultan.org/even.htm , one such example is http://www.tipusultan.org/VijayTimes_Tipu_22sep6.pdf So , in summary their are as many references to contradict Voice of Dharma. Then the question begs , which is authentic ?

[kumble_rocks]

Most of those are explained in those references ... did you bother to read ? For the Last time .. What heck has Packard Humanitties got to do with RSS , or VOD ... Are you saying that those letters written by Tippu are fake or are you trying to act dense on purpose ... what sort of debate is this KR .. as you seem to conveniently ignore answering this question everytime its brought up ?

Same can be said about you ... If you understand English then this statement was a retort to your quote

What is the other side of the Story in this discussion of Tippu ?

which implies that their is other side as can be found in www.tipusultan.org. Whether it is right or wrong is a different issue ..

[CC1981]

What is the other side of the Story in this discussion of Tippu ?

not Tippu, but Islam and religion. You have, quite marvellously,if i may add, established yourself to be a fanatic propagating such Nazi-like ideas as 'boot all muslims out of India, by force if necessary'. As such, the prime arc to the Tippu debate is Islam/religion. Until you can establish yourself as a neutral instead of a blatant one-eyed hinduvta, how can your views on Tippu, which is fundamentally a religious debate (since the debate itself focusses on religion, not his administration or war exploits), be taken seriously ?!?

Bump that thread .. lets see whats in there ..

Why ? In that thread, i called you out no less than HALF A DOZEN TIMES to explain the links provided by Swetabh, which PROVES you to be a nazi making Nazi-like comments about booting all muslims out of India. Yet, you ran away from addressing those points, instead replying only with your misinterpretated and mispotrayed versions of what *I* supposedly said. So what will bumping that thread accomplish ? We already established that you are a Nazi with your Nazi like comments. The evidence was provided by Swetabh and the defence ( ie, you), went missing on addressing those points. The prosecution(me) has rested its case- in legal parlayance, it is win-by-default, since defence is a no-show. I have nothing more to accomplish/gain by bumping that thread. If *YOU* wish to challenge your Nazi-monicker, the onus is on *YOU* to bump that thread and provide clarification/retraction to the half-a-dozen hails for 'defence haazir hoon'. I hope it is clear- and next time, do try not to take this circular route of logical fallacy with me.

[CC1981]

WHAT HAS RSS OR VOD got to do with Packard Humanities Are the Letters written by Tippu fake ? Straight answer.

Straight answer is, you present evidence but that is inconclusive, since you are not a neutral source. I am not debating Packard humanities or RSS or VOD- i am debating *YOU*. Thus *YOUR* credibility must be established before your sources can be entertained. This is normal procedure/logic in this matter- otherwise, as i said before, there is no benchmark for intellectual integrity. You keep missing the point, really. You want me to critique/entertain your sources. Yet, i have made it amply clear that I cannot do that without *YOUR* integrity in the issue being established.

[kumble_rocks]

WHAT HAS RSS OR VOD got to do with Packard Humanities Are the Letters written by Tippu fake ? Straight answer.

How do I know ... Their are other letters too , the ones he wrote to Shankararchya and his actions in protecting Singeri Mutt ...

[kumble_rocks]

Jesus ! Get a grip , you two. This has a potential to become ugly in a jiffy...

[kumble_rocks]

Ahh finally an answer ... Good. Yes he did that but that was towards the end of his reign when things got hot and he didnt want to create more enemeies than he already had. I had explained this to you many times earlier but as usual you conveniently choose to ignore it. Now either those letters that I pointed out to you on the packhum site are fake or you have someother excuse ? In any case I would like to see an explanation from some independent site.

Boy , you hardly are a straight shooter express ....It's a futile to get into discussion with you guys because you refuse to see from neutral perspective ..

[CC1981]

Shwetabh decided to well how should I put it ... back off after I sent him a PM

No shyte, sherlock. Your hissy-fits, particularly on the moderator forum, are well known and legendary. Swetabh has far better things to do than deal with your rants. He did exactly what he was required to: I levelled an allegation on you ( that you made comments about all muslims booted out of India, by force if necessary), you denied the allegation and Swetabh simply showed us the evidence that destroyed your denial. Swetabh has nothing to do with this, since he did not engage in the conversation, barring posting the evidence. It is the EVIDENCE you should be battling, champ.

there was a choice between him standing up to the cross questioning with me bumping up that thread and editing the posts

That is precisely the reason he split and i have nothing to gain from bumping that thread- for you lack all manners and protocol of debating. I alleged something, Swetabh showed the evidence and you remained silent on the DIRECT EVIDENCE. *YOU* are not only out of line, you are also out of turn to 'cross-question' anyone. The defence does not get the luxury of cross-questioning before answering the questions posed to it first. That is the dastoor of not only debates, but also court proceedings. Since you cannot stay in line, Swetabh obviously decieded to entertain your verbal rantings that do not address the points.

heres the thread on your comments on how we need to wait for Kalki to deal with the Islamic nonsense

Yet again you are quoting me out of context- in the previous posts, i've already put in a disclaimer on the notion- the disclaimer being that 'this is what hinduism says must happen before 'sat-dharma' is restored, therefore, you cannot be drawing a hindu-angle AND advocating a Nazi-like action plan against Muslims, since it does NOT corroborrate to hinduism's own expectations'. In simpler words, Hinduism *ITSELF* proclaims that the days of 'good guys' will be restored only after Kalki rises. Thus,until Kalki rises, your point is moot from a hinduism perspective. Thus you need to divorce the idea of 'hinduism' and 'boot all muslims out of india for hinduism/India's sake' notions, due to the kalki inconsistency in YOUR OWN religion!

And on the old board you said the whole Middle east needs to be wiped out

False.

[kumble_rocks]

I wrote to Shwetabh and Bumps as per the protocol about this more than once ... contact them for further details .... I aint backing off ... sheet begets sheet ...

What's the point in calling out on each other's parents ? You guys have known each other for long time now .. The least you both can do is not to invoke each other's families ...

[CC1981]

Yes he did that but that was towards the end of his reign when things got hot and he didnt want to create more enemeies than he already had

That is an interpretation, not fact. I can allege precisely the SAME thing about his previous supposedly anti-hindu behaviour. Tippu was weaker when he came to power- he needed to establish his authority and hegemony, therefore he took some actions against hindus to consolidate his position in what was a Muslim kingdom with predominantly Muslim aristocracy. Once Tippu established himself, he could let the humanitarian in him out and treat Hindus in the fair and consistent manner that the latter days of his reign shows. What do you say now, champ ? Perhaps you should try to discern hypotheticals and 'ifs'/'maybes' from facts. Fact is, Tippu was not very nice in the early parts of his reign and pretty decent near the end of his reign- same thing that Ashoka or Akbar did. So if you want to judge Tippu by only one segment of his rule, perhaps we should all pi$$ on the Ashoka-Chakra based on the first 10 years of Ashoka's tyrannical rule.

[CC1981]

The least you both can do is not to invoke families ...

It doesn't bother me, really. Afterall, i didn't go crying to the moderators like a wimp demanding BB's banning coz of something as docile as using a family person in neutral reference to personally demean BB and BB only ( never have i directly insulted any of his family members). His words of insult is like water off a duck's back- which is precisely why i didn't bat an eyelash when he called my mother a whore and worse. But i have made a commitment not to invoke family member's names in any circumstances, lest the cissies and linguistically challenged amongst us creates more nonsense whining,begging and pleading for permanent bans.