Can Muslims be ever "reformed"? Could they ever come out of the religious brainwashing?

[Singh bling]

30 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

also correct that may be internet could bring some awareness after some generations. 

This is B.S .Just spend times in some groups of FB and you will realise that internet is actually making people more fanatic.It has become tool of mass propaganda , what a mullah can do to few students now could be done to thousands, thanks to internet

[velu]

31 minutes ago, cric_fan said:

 

How often do you hear about someone killed because they left Islam?

 

 

frequently

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, cric_fan said:

How often do you hear about someone killed because they left Islam?

 

During Sahaba period, all such people had been killed. Today all such people will be killed in Saudia, Iran, Taliban area, or any place where Muslims have the power. 

 

If today some people are not killed, then it is not due to the Islam, but it is due to the fact that Muslims are not strong enough in that area etc. 

 

Let us leave other discussion, and let us concentrate only upon this point that indeed humanity within your is guiding you clearly that any such act is against the humanity. If you feel it, you could reform yourself. 

 

1 hour ago, cric_fan said:

The bold part- l’ve never heard such bullshit before. Of course the boy and girl are aloud to speak to eachother- post facts not fantasies.

You are totally right when you ask me for the proofs. 

I will do it in details at the appropriate place. For time being, please check the fatwa of Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia Sheikh Uthamayeen upon Falling in LOVE being forbidden, and also talking to your future wife is forbidden. Link:

 

Please also note: 

 

* Aisha didn't talk to Muhammad before her marriage. 

 

* And she didn't give her consent at the age of 6 years. But her father married her to the Muhammad at his own, and then sent her to him at the age of 9.

 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Alam_dar

[Alam_dar]

Returning to the topic: Could Muslims be reformed?

 

My answer is:  "YES".

 

I have personally gone through each and every process (being staunch Muslim, felt collision between Humanity and Islam, discovered those realities of Islam after long research which Mullah never let the normal Muslims know, discussed extensively with the Muslim, Seen many Muslims leaving Islam, I know the reasons why they did it. I know there is still a path which is open to success. 

 

=====

 

One very important facts: 

 

* There are millions of Muslims, who are "unsatisfied" with the religion. 

 

* These millions of unsatisfied Muslims are able to feel the collision between the Religion and the Humanity. And they have doubts in the religion. 

 

I am personally one of them. I was able to see this collision (i.e. Religion vs Humanity) in my teens. The brainwashing by my teachers, Mullahs, family didn't succeed to take my doubts away from me. 

 

But still I stayed Muslim for the next whole Decade, and despite the doubts became more and more religious. 

 

It continued, till the time I met my atheist Teacher, who guided me to those topics about Islam which Mullah have very very successfully hidden from the normal Muslims. Only after this guidance, I became successful in getting rid of the religion. 

 

Conclusion:

 

* Positive sing is millions of Muslims do feel the war between Humanity and Islam. 

Bad news is, still they are not going to leave their religion.  We are not Buddhas. We need some one to guide us. This first kick from any teacher/guide is very necessary.

 

* (The Biggest Factor) There is a Total Absence of Books, which could shed correct light upon Islam. This is the biggest bad luck. No one among the Muslim community itself was able to write such books, as Muslims have killed all such people. And no Non Muslim also showed the scholarship to fulfil this task. 

 

* Even if there are few books (which are not of the satisfactory level), then they are only in English language. 

And they are written only by the Christians. And their writings loose their effect when Muslims start criticizing their own books ( i.e. New and the old testament which are full of problems). 

 

* Due to the absence of quality books, not only Muslim Public are unaware of real Islam, but also whole world is lacking in knowledge, and they could not counter the Muslims satisfactory in the debates. 

Whole world could easily feel that Islam has problematic teachings, they absolutely hate Islam, but still they fail in countering it successfully. But I want to tell them that it is possible to counter the Muslims in debates very very successfully, but whole world should recognise the basic problem i.e. lac of quality books by those who criticize Islam. 

 

Last Point:

======

Remember, Humanity is the biggest weapon against the Islam. 

Also remember, in this century we have got our 2nd biggest weapon too against the Islam. And that 2nd weapon is "Modern Science". 

Islam is contradicting not only the Humanity, but it is also badly contradicting the Modern Science. 

 

Very positive news is this that Islam has no chance to refute the arguments of Humanity and the Modern Science. It will take some time, but ultimately these 2 weapons are going to destroy the Islam sooner or later. 

[cric_fan]

You are totally right when you ask me for the proofs. 

I will do it in details at the appropriate place. For time being, please check the fatwa of Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia Sheikh Uthamayeen upon Falling in LOVE being forbidden, and also talking to your future wife is forbidden. Link:

 

Please also note: 

 

* Aisha didn't talk to Muhammad before her marriage. 

 

* And she didn't give her consent at the age of 6 years. But her father married her to the Muhammad at his own, and then sent her to him at the age of 9.

 

 

 

You are taking the word of the grand mufti? A nobody. Hilarious.

[cric_fan]

Returning to the topic: Could Muslims be reformed?
 
My answer is:  "YES".
 
I have personally gone through each and every process (being staunch Muslim, felt collision between Humanity and Islam, discovered those realities of Islam after long research which Mullah never let the normal Muslims know, discussed extensively with the Muslim, Seen many Muslims leaving Islam, I know the reasons why they did it. I know there is still a path which is open to success. 
 
=====
 
One very important facts: 
 
* There are millions of Muslims, who are "unsatisfied" with the religion. 
 
* These millions of unsatisfied Muslims are able to feel the collision between the Religion and the Humanity. And they have doubts in the religion. 
 
I am personally one of them. I was able to see this collision (i.e. Religion vs Humanity) in my teens. The brainwashing by my teachers, Mullahs, family didn't succeed to take my doubts away from me. 
 
But still I stayed Muslim for the next whole Decade, and despite the doubts became more and more religious. 
 
It continued, till the time I met my atheist Teacher, who guided me to those topics about Islam which Mullah have very very successfully hidden from the normal Muslims. Only after this guidance, I became successful in getting rid of the religion. 
 
Conclusion:
 
* Positive sing is millions of Muslims do feel the war between Humanity and Islam. 
Bad news is, still they are not going to leave their religion.  We are not Buddhas. We need some one to guide us. This first kick from any teacher/guide is very necessary.
 
* (The Biggest Factor) There is a Total Absence of Books, which could shed correct light upon Islam. This is the biggest bad luck. No one among the Muslim community itself was able to write such books, as Muslims have killed all such people. And no Non Muslim also showed the scholarship to fulfil this task. 
 
* Even if there are few books (which are not of the satisfactory level), then they are only in English language. 
And they are written only by the Christians. And their writings loose their effect when Muslims start criticizing their own books ( i.e. New and the old testament which are full of problems). 
 
* Due to the absence of quality books, not only Muslim Public are unaware of real Islam, but also whole world is lacking in knowledge, and they could not counter the Muslims satisfactory in the debates. 
Whole world could easily feel that Islam has problematic teachings, they absolutely hate Islam, but still they fail in countering it successfully. But I want to tell them that it is possible to counter the Muslims in debates very very successfully, but whole world should recognise the basic problem i.e. lac of quality books by those who criticize Islam. 
 
Last Point:
======
Remember, Humanity is the biggest weapon against the Islam. 
Also remember, in this century we have got our 2nd biggest weapon too against the Islam. And that 2nd weapon is "Modern Science". 
Islam is contradicting not only the Humanity, but it is also badly contradicting the Modern Science. 
 
Very positive news is this that Islam has no chance to refute the arguments of Humanity and the Modern Science. It will take some time, but ultimately these 2 weapons are going to destroy the Islam sooner or later. 

If you let the mullah’s brainwash you...then you are weak.

[Alam_dar]

47 minutes ago, Singh bling said:

This is B.S .Just spend times in some groups of FB and you will realise that internet is actually making people more fanatic.It has become tool of mass propaganda , what a mullah can do to few students now could be done to thousands, thanks to internet

100% Correct bro. 

 

But in my opinion if we use FB wisely, then Muslim success could only be temporary. This same FB and internet is also going to help the world to refute Muslims sooner or later. 

 

The weapon of Muslim Mullah like Zakir Naik is "Deception". They published the books about "Science in Islam", which are full of lies and deceptions and they caused the brainwashing of millions of Muslims and thousands of non-Muslims accepted Islam due to those deceptions in science. 

 

But now the reverse phenomenon has started. This same facebook has been used successfully in showing the contradictions between Islam and the science. Now I see Muslims on the run. 

 

And although not many Muslims left Islam due to this up till now, but indeed there are thousands of Non-Muslims who found the truth and they didn't accept Islam, or they even left Islam in big numbers after firstly accepting it. 

[cric_fan]

Returning to the topic: Could Muslims be reformed?
 
My answer is:  "YES".
 
I have personally gone through each and every process (being staunch Muslim, felt collision between Humanity and Islam, discovered those realities of Islam after long research which Mullah never let the normal Muslims know, discussed extensively with the Muslim, Seen many Muslims leaving Islam, I know the reasons why they did it. I know there is still a path which is open to success. 
 
=====
 
One very important facts: 
 
* There are millions of Muslims, who are "unsatisfied" with the religion. 
 
* These millions of unsatisfied Muslims are able to feel the collision between the Religion and the Humanity. And they have doubts in the religion. 
 
I am personally one of them. I was able to see this collision (i.e. Religion vs Humanity) in my teens. The brainwashing by my teachers, Mullahs, family didn't succeed to take my doubts away from me. 
 
But still I stayed Muslim for the next whole Decade, and despite the doubts became more and more religious. 
 
It continued, till the time I met my atheist Teacher, who guided me to those topics about Islam which Mullah have very very successfully hidden from the normal Muslims. Only after this guidance, I became successful in getting rid of the religion. 
 
Conclusion:
 
* Positive sing is millions of Muslims do feel the war between Humanity and Islam. 
Bad news is, still they are not going to leave their religion.  We are not Buddhas. We need some one to guide us. This first kick from any teacher/guide is very necessary.
 
* (The Biggest Factor) There is a Total Absence of Books, which could shed correct light upon Islam. This is the biggest bad luck. No one among the Muslim community itself was able to write such books, as Muslims have killed all such people. And no Non Muslim also showed the scholarship to fulfil this task. 
 
* Even if there are few books (which are not of the satisfactory level), then they are only in English language. 
And they are written only by the Christians. And their writings loose their effect when Muslims start criticizing their own books ( i.e. New and the old testament which are full of problems). 
 
* Due to the absence of quality books, not only Muslim Public are unaware of real Islam, but also whole world is lacking in knowledge, and they could not counter the Muslims satisfactory in the debates. 
Whole world could easily feel that Islam has problematic teachings, they absolutely hate Islam, but still they fail in countering it successfully. But I want to tell them that it is possible to counter the Muslims in debates very very successfully, but whole world should recognise the basic problem i.e. lac of quality books by those who criticize Islam. 
 
Last Point:
======
Remember, Humanity is the biggest weapon against the Islam. 
Also remember, in this century we have got our 2nd biggest weapon too against the Islam. And that 2nd weapon is "Modern Science". 
Islam is contradicting not only the Humanity, but it is also badly contradicting the Modern Science. 
 
Very positive news is this that Islam has no chance to refute the arguments of Humanity and the Modern Science. It will take some time, but ultimately these 2 weapons are going to destroy the Islam sooner or later. 

Sorry but Islam will never be destroyed. Nor will any other religion.

Talking about science, the Quran contains many science related facts.

I think you are going on a rant without any backing.

[Ranvir]

Well Christians were pretty fanatical in the Middle Ages and they evolved from that but even they didn’t seem to follow their religion that much as modern muslims tend to do.

 

The problem with Muslims is that they exploit any weakness or kindness in other cultures. The only way to defeat them is by putting on a united front and not letting them get away with things that they wouldn’t let you.

[Alam_dar]

8 minutes ago, cric_fan said:

I think you are going on a rant without any backing.

May I request you to be please be patient. I will address your questions with proper references at the appropriate place. 

 

This particular thread is not for the debate with the Muslims, but it is a discussion basically with the Non Muslims about Islam. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Alam_dar

[kira]

1 hour ago, cric_fan said:

 

Sorry but Islam will never be destroyed. Nor will any other religion.

Talking about science, the Quran contains many science related facts.

I think you are going on a rant without any backing.

 

 And you were calling alam dar weak for being brainwashed, oh the irony

[cric_fan]

:hysterical: And you were calling alam dar weak for being brainwashed, oh the irony:rotfl:

Tu rehnde

You defo need reforming from your current state :giggle:

[MechEng]

6 hours ago, randomGuy said:

1. I was thinking if everyone becomes vegetarian, there's very less chance of conflict... Par ye mankind ke bas ka nahi hai, people are too weak to quit it... So in future if lab grown meat (no animal is killed or harmed in lab grown meat, it is same as animal meat) becomes mainstream.... Startups like Memphis meats (started by an Indian American, backed by Bill gates) are working on this.... I see chance of reconciliation of Islam with other religions.. 

 

2. With internet, awareness etc., in a couple of generations, Islam should/may become a lot weaker hopefully. 

Oh come on! stop flattering us ghaas phoos eaters 

[panther]

2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

May I request you to be please be patient. I will address your questions with proper references at the appropriate place. 

 

This particular thread is not for the debate with the Muslims, but it is a discussion basically with the Non Muslims about Islam. 

Muslims are the final frontier, the Hindus, Buddhist and christians have all been castrated, the other religions are too insignificant to bother with.

[randomGuy]

1 hour ago, MechEng said:

Oh come on! stop flattering us ghaas phoos eaters 

I know you feel pain in similar way as I do and I have vegetarian options as well, but I will kill you for a single meal of mine, or for my footwear/belt/bag/cricket balls.... That's the world philosophy right now.... 

 

Such kind of thinking makes one group of people suspicious of other groups all the time and makes everyone believe that people are very selfish. 

 

Also, the conflict of 1. whether or not kill the animal (vegetarians, vegans vs non-vegetarian) 2. Which animal to kill or to spare (cow, pig...) 3. How to kill them (halal, jhatka, kosher).....

 

[Alam_dar]

34 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

you will probably need a couple of world wars ,the way it destroyed the right wings of europe,otherwise not much is going to change.

I would say, don't loose your hopes yet. This is still doable. 

 

World wars are another option which sometimes bring the desired results (e.g. when Muslims become politically weak, only then one gets the basic human right of criticizing Islam without getting murdered. And it is also the time when Muslims themselves ask for Democracy instead of imposition of Sharia law, just as Pakistani Muslims are 90% for Sharia, while Indian Muslims cry for the democracy).

 

Wars are unfortunate, but life is not ideal and the realities of life are very hard. 

 

[Vilander]

10 hours ago, cric_fan said:

How do you want me to reform..do you want me to start going to the pub every Friday & come home drunk..

Explain reform.

Do you accept that what is said in Quran can be delibrated upon and refined reformed?  And is not the ultimate truth that can not be changed. 

[Alam_dar]

The Power of Knowledge:

 

Question was: "If Muslims could be reformed"? 

Many thought "No", while I believed "Yes"

 

Then comes the 2nd stage:

Many think it is "Very Difficult". But I believe it is "Easy" (rather Very Easy). 

 

Why is this difference of opinion here? 

 

Many debated with the Muslims and they didn't get the positive results. I also debated with Muslims, but I got the "Excellent Success". 

 

Difference was:

 

* I got the knowledgeable ex-Muslim teacher who guided me to that material in Islam, which is hidden even from the 99% of the Muslims. 

 

* There is material available in Urdu, which is not present in other languages.

 

Thus, I got the "Power of Knowledge" at my hands, which made this difference. If you have knowledge, then you are confident. And due to this confidence, I believe that successful Discussion with Muslims is easy, rather "Very Easy". 

 

Sure, there are Muslims who are biased. They have lost  their humanity and have become the "blind followers". Thus they would never accept the truth, even if it is clear to them. 

 

But there are also Muslims who have not yet not lost their Humanity. They do ponder over the things. Humanity guides them that they are not discussing in order to defend Islam at every cost, but they are discussing in order to get the knowledge and to do the JUSTICE with the truth. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Alam_dar

[Alam_dar]

22 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

Communists and leftists with all their ussr and chinese backed resources,groups and invasions failed to take over islamic countries .Now the liberal democrats /conservatives are trying ,i think they will fail as well .

The question is not about democracy but what type of democracy you want ,someone like you will prefer a liberal democracy .Muslims in india dont want a liberal democracy ,they are uncomfortable voting even for congress or other regional parties ,but they have to, to keep out the hindutva elements .

The path that I follows, it is entirely different than what the Communists/Liberal try to do. 

 

Communists/Liberals try to do thing "superficially" and their success is only temporary.

 

While what I am suggesting, it is a change "within". It is a "permanent" change. 

 

There is no chance that I (or my progeny) would ever return to Islam again in 50 or 100 years time (like Islamic Communist countries where Islam once again coming after the failure of Communism). 

 

Not only I am not going to ever return to Islam, but I am at that stage where I will cause many to permanently leave the religion. This is known as "ideological change", as compared to the Communist/Liberal who go for somewhat "cultural change". 

[jusarrived]

11 hours ago, cric_fan said:

How do you want me to reform..do you want me to start going to the pub every Friday & come home drunk..

Explain reform.

Do you really need a book to tell you drinking is bad ? I guess you do ..no wonder most of you think it's ok to smoke cigarettes , weed etc cos the book doesn't mention it . 

Start would be able to think what's good or bad for you on your own , like rest of the world .