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Priyanka Chopra gets flak for ‘Hindu terror’ plot in Quantico

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17 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Dalits are Hindus as well.

Dalits are like dwarves of the family: hated by the family but only called family in the face of outsiders.

Most Hindus don't consider Dalits to be hindus by the religious practice of being hindu, neither do the hindu texts. 

 

Even then the statement 'hindus have murdered and raped dalits for 2000 years' is correct, even if Dalits are subsets of Hindus. X can kill Y, even if Y is subset of X and we can still say X is killing Y.

 

If you don't like it, then what about this:
" Non-Dalit Hindus have been murdering and raping Dalit hindus for thousands of years"

So are you okay with that statement ?

 

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1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Again, if you are going to taint millions of liberals by the most extreme 5-6 people, then we are going to start using the most extreme rapist sadhu hindus to represent all the hindus. Fair ?

My point being FoE should be absolute, and liberals use it to defend their ilk, while call the other side bigots. The same is being done for Trump supporters as well. 

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

 

You think a Chef in Dubai got fired for uttering anti-Muslim statements because atheist liberals whined about it ??? Thats the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. He got fired because muslims in Dubai saw his tweet and the establishment is doing the right thing by firing a bigot who'd tarnish their image. 

Atul would be fired from any decent company for expressing bigotry like that. 

Not everywhere, only in muslim dominated countries. 

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9 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

My point being FoE should be absolute, and liberals use it to defend their ilk, while call the other side bigots. The same is being done for Trump supporters as well. 

Again, if you wanna use half a dozen radical liberals to smear the millions of us, can we start using rapist Sadhus to represent all hindus ? 

FoE is never absolute. The moment you commit libel, its  crime in every single nation and it should be. You don't get the right to make up false claims about me and damage my reputation or income under the guise of FoE, its simple libel, period.

9 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Not everywhere, only in muslim dominated countries. 

He would be fired pretty much anywhere in the west except for deep south or red states in the US. 

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35 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Dalits are like dwarves of the family: hated by the family but only called family in the face of outsiders.

Most Hindus don't consider Dalits to be hindus by the religious practice of being hindu, neither do the hindu texts. 

 

Even then the statement 'hindus have murdered and raped dalits for 2000 years' is correct, even if Dalits are subsets of Hindus. X can kill Y, even if Y is subset of X and we can still say X is killing Y.

 

If you don't like it, then what about this:
" Non-Dalit Hindus have been murdering and raping Dalit hindus for thousands of years"

So are you okay with that statement ?

 

I dont agree with any of these bolded parts. There were crime against dalits just like it were there against all others. Nobody has rights to decide if someone is hindu or not. The idiot bramhins/pandits have done stupid things not just to dalits alone but they have done it against everyone including fellow bramhins. So please dont spread and believe in this propaganda that non-dalit dont consider dalits as hindu. I hear this lot from Pak muslims and evangelical missionaries so that they could prey on dalits for proselytization. 

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9 minutes ago, dial_100 said:

I dont agree with any of these bolded parts. There were crime against dalits just like it were there against all others. Nobody has rights to decide if someone is hindu or not. The idiot bramhins/pandits have done stupid things not just to dalits alone but they have done it against everyone including fellow bramhins. So please dont spread and believe in this propaganda that non-dalit dont consider dalits as hindu. I hear this lot from Pak muslims and evangelical missionaries so that they could prey on dalits for proselytization. 

Saying 'non-Dalit hindus have murdered and raped dalit hindus' is as factually accurate as saying 'muslims have murdered and raped hindus'. Both statements are true for some cases but false for most cases. That was my point.

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I dont agree with any of these bolded parts. There were crime against dalits just like it were there against all others. Nobody has rights to decide if someone is hindu or not. The idiot bramhins/pandits have done stupid things not just to dalits alone but they have done it against everyone including fellow bramhins. So please dont spread and believe in this propaganda that non-dalit dont consider dalits as hindu. I hear this lot from Pak muslims and evangelical missionaries so that they could prey on dalits for proselytization. 
Also, in parts of South India, Brahmins have been preyed upon by lower castes.


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1 hour ago, dial_100 said:

I dont agree with any of these bolded parts. There were crime against dalits just like it were there against all others. Nobody has rights to decide if someone is hindu or not. The idiot bramhins/pandits have done stupid things not just to dalits alone but they have done it against everyone including fellow bramhins. So please dont spread and believe in this propaganda that non-dalit dont consider dalits as hindu. I hear this lot from Pak muslims and evangelical missionaries so that they could prey on dalits for proselytization. 

btw, my family is mostly brahmin themselves. I grew up as hindu, even did the whole pancha-devata pranaam after upanayan. And unlike most educated Bong families, my family is/was mostly not CPM, they were congressi(and now BJP). 


People think that atheists know jack about religion, but usually people become atheist because they know too much about the nonsense that is religion. I also am a history geek, so i am very well aware of the semi-slavery of the dalits in India through the ages.

 

Edited by Muloghonto

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On 6/15/2018 at 11:27 PM, Muloghonto said:

Saying 'non-Dalit hindus have murdered and raped dalit hindus' is as factually accurate as saying 'muslims have murdered and raped hindus'. Both statements are true for some cases but false for most cases. That was my point.

its like saying Sunnis have killed Shias.  I dont think there is any such thing like nondalit Hindus killing Dalit Hindus, suppressed yes, but not killing. 

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12 minutes ago, Hydra said:

India has more issues than a TV show or a stupid movie, but typically those things are brushed under the carpet.

So does Australia the genocide of aborigines, killing the native population by spreading disease you guys are no different  than the Stalin , Mao and other guy. Don’t you still have the law that if an aborigine dies the land belongs to you guys. You are in violation of human rights. Sure India has other problems but not like you guys. You have bigger problems than many countries.

Edited by gattaca

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9 hours ago, zen said:

If only India was more or as sensitive about controlling its population and pollution levels, along with improving situation for women, kids, elders and animals 

Billions are being spent on all these issues ,how much do you think will be spent on miss chopra?

 

If indians had conquered large amounts of foreign territory and resources rather than being stuck in india ,instead getting invaded and settled and plundered  and losing even more of fertile lands in punjab and bengal due to partitions, we wouldn't have had such a big problem.

Edited by MultiB48

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3 hours ago, gattaca said:

So does Australia the genocide of aborigines, killing the native population by spreading disease you guys are no different  than the Stalin , Mao and other guy. Don’t you still have the law that if an aborigine dies the land belongs to you guys. You are in violation of human rights. Sure India has other problems but not like you guys. You have bigger problems than many countries.

dont worry about Australia...talk about Pakistan to Hydra bhai.

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7 hours ago, Vilander said:

Tukaram killed in action not martyr nor shahid..sounds like what a jihadi will call their dead otherwise.

The usage of the word shaheed is a lot more nuanced than you'd like to believe. 

There are gardens, parks and a basketball court in Mumbai named "Shaheed Tukaram Ombale". Some of them inaugurated by the ruling BJP state government.  

Are you trying to say that the BJP would also use jihadi nomenclature?

Edited by Mariyam

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6 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Billions are being spent on all these issues ,how much do you think will be spent on miss chopra?

 

If indians had conquered large amounts of foreign territory and resources rather than being stuck in india ,instead getting invaded and settled and plundered  and losing even more of fertile lands in punjab and bengal due to partitions, we wouldn't have had such a big problem.

The concern about the issue should come from the people in general not the government, which I presume is spending the “billions”. This is not about the govt’s reaction on Chopra. Next question would be is spending money enough? 

 

What Ind or Indians did or did not in past is irrelevant. Population and Pollution control, cleanliness drive, caring for animals, safeguarding women’s interests, etc., are basics concepts. And the idea that government has to be involved with these (by spending money for e.g.) speaks about how less sensitive people in general in Ind could be for such issues 

Edited by zen

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On June 17, 2018 at 10:40 AM, rkt.india said:

its like saying Sunnis have killed Shias.  I dont think there is any such thing like nondalit Hindus killing Dalit Hindus, suppressed yes, but not killing. 

Google says you are wrong. Non Dalit Hindus have been killing Dalits for longer than Islam has existed 

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1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Google says you are wrong. Non Dalit Hindus have been killing Dalits for longer than Islam has existed 

How? 2 Leftist moron historians peer-reviewed the evidence and agreed to publish it and Google says it is the correct version of history?

Edited by coffee_rules

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1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

How? 2 Leftist moron historians peer-reviewed the evidence and agreed to publish it and Google says it is the correct version of history?

As in I can find hundreds of incidents detailing non Dalit Hindus killing Dalits because of stuff Dalits are not supposed to do from news.

 

As for history, I don't need a leftist historian to tell me the evidence . Hindu scriptures and historic sources are enough .

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As in I can find hundreds of incidents detailing non Dalit Hindus killing Dalits because of stuff Dalits are not supposed to do from news.
 
As for history, I don't need a leftist historian to tell me the evidence . Hindu scriptures and historic sources are enough .


Hindu scriptures advocate killing dalits? Or are you stating it is full of instances of dalit killings?

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2 hours ago, nikred said:


 

 


Hindu scriptures advocate killing dalits? Or are you stating it is full of instances of dalit killings?

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
 

 

This is what happens when you allow foreigners to write your own history.

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What's funny is that for the claims Ranga/Mulo has in this thread,he hasn't backed up...   Just ask for a source that backs up the claim that Hindus have murdered and raped dalits for 2000 years and Most Hindus don't consider dalits as Hindus.  Both are baseless bunkum. Unless this fellow can first provide that, there is no reason to go further. 

 

Even one of the most influential Hindu saints of the last several hundred years, Sant Ravidas was from the chamar jati, which is considered dalit. His own writing state how Brahmins from Banaras would bow before him. He was also the guru of Shivaji. 

Edited by Moochad

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On Topic

Quantico Situation

A) ABC and PC both apologized. Whoever wanted them to already won that much. 

B) The show was already cancelled, and this is its last season anyway. 

C) Anyone with a problem with the outrage and apology should also have a problem, a greater one probably with this, where ABC cancelled an entire show because of a "racist" tweet by a lead actor

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/forums/topic/107853-abc-cancels-roseanne-after-stars-racist-twitter-rant/

 

The fact is that many Western countries already have laws on blasphemy/hate speech which are used to silence wrongthink, that the US is slowly degenerating to a place where "liberals" are pushing for hate speech laws and general support for absolute free speech is on the decline in the country:

spkrac.png

 

absolute1.png

The US will likely add hate speech laws within a few decades, in my opinion... This is just a sign of that I think.

 

D) Indian liberandus on twitter/online who were whinging about this ironically had no issue hounding other people online when they make statements not considered politically correct, such as that chef Atul Kochhar, who also doesn't even live in India.

E) Indian liberandus are the ones who passed/maintained the 1st amendment to the Indian constitution and IPC 295a; what possible locus standi could they have to lecture an American corporation on something as minimal as an apology?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off topic stuff

Kochhar Fiasco

Spoiler

 

A) Atul Kochhar was only partly correct, I think in his tweet he mentioned 2000 years, which is an exaggeration, as they haven't even existed that long 

B) He said what he said and was hounded by liberandus on Indian twitter

C) He lost his job, likely in part because of the outrage reaching the higher ups at his hotel of employment

D) He lives in such a country where what he tweeted can get him jailed, so, if he does get jailed, one can primarily blame his own foolishness, not recognizing where he lives/works

E) Indians in general, and liberandus in particular, have no locus standi here either, as India is a country where a man, Kamlesh Tiwari, was arrested under the NSA, for calling the "prophet" a homosexual  

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ranga-Dalit Issue

Spoiler

A)The concept of a "Dalit caste" is itself murky, many consider Dalits and Shudras the same thing; for example "Dalits" often have the same Kuladevis as Shudras, ie my family's is Batrakali which is shared by many Dalits in Gujarat as well. Also read Ambedkar's own writings where he constantly uses the phrase Shudra to refer to both.  

B) There is no doubt discrimination against "Dalits" even today and was surely there in the past as well. That discrimination would have likely taken a violent turn many times for sure.

C) A significant proportion of the discrimination against Dalits are done by Shudras themselves, ie the Yadav-Dalit issues in  Bihar, "Dravidian"-Dalit issues in TN, Jatt-Dalit issues in UP. There is no doubt "upper castes" also engaged in discrimination.

D) The idea of a homogeneous Dalit "caste" itself is further misleading when one considers politics in places like UP where Dalit jatis like Jatavs and Pasis are basically rivals and discriminate against each other or Ambedkar's own Mahar caste which dominates other Dalit castes in Maharashtra 

E) There are Dalits in India even among Muslims, Christians, etc who also discriminate against these people (read Ambedkar's biography by Dhananjay Keer and one can see he was even discriminated against by Parsis).

F) Discrimination does not equal murder and rape, especially at a large scale comparable to what Islam does to all non-Muslims, forget just Hindus. A fantastic claim like Ranga's that Hindus have terrorized Dalits for 2000 years is monkey balancing at its finest. (A self-professed Jain man can murder a Homosexual, but that doesn't mean that it is part of Jainism to murder homosexuals.)

I) There is textual support in Islam to brutally attack non-believers; Dr. Bill Warner estimates 53% of the corpus of Islamic texts are dedicated toward talking about "what to do with" Kafirs.  

I) There is sparse, if any, credible evidence that suggests large scale rape and murder of Dalits, let alone Shudras, in history

J) There is also no significant evidence of "lower castes" ever engaging in armed revolt against "upper castes" in India, despite the fact that, according to historical records, India was one of the most highly armed societies before arms were specifically banned from common people in the last few hundred years(by Aurangzeb and then the British).

K) There is also no significant evidence of "lower castes" leaving Hinduism to embrace "egalitarian" religions like Islam (a legendary canard)

L) Dalits will have likely committed discriminaiton and violence against non-Dalits and other Dalits as well. The Jati-Varna system is more like a cascade of "jatis." As evidence of discrimination, anecdotally in Gujarat, Dalits call Tribals as "Jangali Janver" 

M) There is enough instances of Dalits and Shudras "moving up" the "caste system" ie Scindias, Gaekawds, Shivaji, Sant Ravidas, Maharaja Suheldev Pasi 

N) As a counter, there is also enough evidence that education wasn't denied to "Dalits" and "Shudras", read Dharmpal's book The Beautiful Tree where it is shown that "lower castes" were even the dominate groups in indigenous schools.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Random other things I saw in this thread

Spoiler

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/07/why-people-with-no-religion-are-projected-to-decline-as-a-share-of-the-worlds-population/

Why people with no religion are projected to decline as a share of the world’s population

PF_17.04.05_projectionsUpdate_natIncUnafil310px_2NEW.png

Atheists are declining as a percentage of the global population. They are literally dying out.  

 

Spoiler

Aussies giving gyan to us evil injuns :((

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate

Australia Rape rate 28.6 per 100,000

India Rape rate 1.80 per 100,00

 

 

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5 hours ago, Tibarn said:

On Topic

Quantico Situation

A) ABC and PC both apologized. Whoever wanted them to already won that much. 

B) The show was already cancelled, and this is its last season anyway. 

C) Anyone with a problem with the outrage and apology should also have a problem, a greater one probably with this, where ABC cancelled an entire show because of a "racist" tweet by a lead actor

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/forums/topic/107853-abc-cancels-roseanne-after-stars-racist-twitter-rant/

 

The fact is that many Western countries already have laws on blasphemy/hate speech which are used to silence wrongthink, that the US is slowly degenerating to a place where "liberals" are pushing for hate speech laws and general support for absolute free speech is on the decline in the country:

spkrac.png

 

absolute1.png

The US will likely add hate speech laws within a few decades, in my opinion... This is just a sign of that I think.

 

D) Indian liberandus on twitter/online who were whinging about this ironically had no issue hounding other people online when they make statements not considered politically correct, such as that chef Atul Kochhar, who also doesn't even live in India.

E) Indian liberandus are the ones who passed/maintained the 1st amendment to the Indian constitution and IPC 295a; what possible locus standi could they have to lecture an American corporation on something as minimal as an apology?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off topic stuff

Kochhar Fiasco

  Reveal hidden contents

 

A) Atul Kochhar was only partly correct, I think in his tweet he mentioned 2000 years, which is an exaggeration, as they haven't even existed that long 

B) He said what he said and was hounded by liberandus on Indian twitter

C) He lost his job, likely in part because of the outrage reaching the higher ups at his hotel of employment

D) He lives in such a country where what he tweeted can get him jailed, so, if he does get jailed, one can primarily blame his own foolishness, not recognizing where he lives/works

E) Indians in general, and liberandus in particular, have no locus standi here either, as India is a country where a man, Kamlesh Tiwari, was arrested under the NSA, for calling the "prophet" a homosexual  

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ranga-Dalit Issue

  Reveal hidden contents

A)The concept of a "Dalit caste" is itself murky, many consider Dalits and Shudras the same thing; for example "Dalits" often have the same Kuladevis as Shudras, ie my family's is Batrakali which is shared by many Dalits in Gujarat as well. Also read Ambedkar's own writings where he constantly uses the phrase Shudra to refer to both.  

B) There is no doubt discrimination against "Dalits" even today and was surely there in the past as well. That discrimination would have likely taken a violent turn many times for sure.

C) A significant proportion of the discrimination against Dalits are done by Shudras themselves, ie the Yadav-Dalit issues in  Bihar, "Dravidian"-Dalit issues in TN, Jatt-Dalit issues in UP. There is no doubt "upper castes" also engaged in discrimination.

D) The idea of a homogeneous Dalit "caste" itself is further misleading when one considers politics in places like UP where Dalit jatis like Jatavs and Pasis are basically rivals and discriminate against each other or Ambedkar's own Mahar caste which dominates other Dalit castes in Maharashtra 

E) There are Dalits in India even among Muslims, Christians, etc who also discriminate against these people (read Ambedkar's biography by Dhananjay Keer and one can see he was even discriminated against by Parsis).

F) Discrimination does not equal murder and rape, especially at a large scale comparable to what Islam does to all non-Muslims, forget just Hindus. A fantastic claim like Ranga's that Hindus have terrorized Dalits for 2000 years is monkey balancing at its finest. (A self-professed Jain man can murder a Homosexual, but that doesn't mean that it is part of Jainism to murder homosexuals.)

I) There is textual support in Islam to brutally attack non-believers; Dr. Bill Warner estimates 53% of the corpus of Islamic texts are dedicated toward talking about "what to do with" Kafirs.  

I) There is sparse, if any, credible evidence that suggests large scale rape and murder of Dalits, let alone Shudras, in history

J) There is also no significant evidence of "lower castes" ever engaging in armed revolt against "upper castes" in India, despite the fact that, according to historical records, India was one of the most highly armed societies before arms were specifically banned from common people in the last few hundred years(by Aurangzeb and then the British).

K) There is also no significant evidence of "lower castes" leaving Hinduism to embrace "egalitarian" religions like Islam (a legendary canard)

L) Dalits will have likely committed discriminaiton and violence against non-Dalits and other Dalits as well. The Jati-Varna system is more like a cascade of "jatis." As evidence of discrimination, anecdotally in Gujarat, Dalits call Tribals as "Jangali Janver" 

M) There is enough instances of Dalits and Shudras "moving up" the "caste system" ie Scindias, Gaekawds, Shivaji, Sant Ravidas, Maharaja Suheldev Pasi 

N) As a counter, there is also enough evidence that education wasn't denied to "Dalits" and "Shudras", read Dharmpal's book The Beautiful Tree where it is shown that "lower castes" were even the dominate groups in indigenous schools.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Random other things I saw in this thread

  Reveal hidden contents

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/07/why-people-with-no-religion-are-projected-to-decline-as-a-share-of-the-worlds-population/

Why people with no religion are projected to decline as a share of the world’s population

PF_17.04.05_projectionsUpdate_natIncUnafil310px_2NEW.png

Atheists are declining as a percentage of the global population. They are literally dying out.  

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Aussies giving gyan to us evil injuns :((

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate

Australia Rape rate 28.6 per 100,000

India Rape rate 1.80 per 100,00

 

 

Thanks buddy for the informative post, it seems only White Males and Jewish people are free-speech absolutists in the US. I wonder why that is? I would think Asians who come from more totalitarian regimes like China would appreciate the right to speak freely more.

 

That foreign born percentage of 29.3% is astoundingly low, I also wonder if some of the Donald Trump backlash was because of this?  

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16 hours ago, Moochad said:

What's funny is that for the claims Ranga/Mulo has in this thread,he hasn't backed up...   Just ask for a source that backs up the claim that Hindus have murdered and raped dalits for 2000 years and Most Hindus don't consider dalits as Hindus.  Both are baseless bunkum. Unless this fellow can first provide that, there is no reason to go further. 

 

Even one of the most influential Hindu saints of the last several hundred years, Sant Ravidas was from the chamar jati, which is considered dalit. His own writing state how Brahmins from Banaras would bow before him. He was also the guru of Shivaji. 

You are quoting an Exceptional case of one person. 

While the reality is that millions of others indeed suffered. 
 

You say that Brahmins considered Dalits as Hindu too.

But sad and brutal reality is this that they didn't considered Dalits as Human Beings. 

So, hindu or no hindu, what difference is it going to make when they were not even Human Beings for upper caste Hindus? 

 

You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to enter the Mandirs? Or Mandirs became filthy due to their presence?

 

You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to touch and read the holy Hindu Books? Or were they beaten for entering the Mandirs and touching and reading the holy books? 

 

===

 

Slavery was evil. 

But Dalits suffered even more than the slaves. 

 

Even in the Islamic Slavery (which is in itself worse kind of ZULM upon the humanity), human beings were not so much humiliated and not treated as badly as in the Hindu Caste System. 

 

Sorry if you feel uncomfortable from my honest opinion. For me Humanity is sacred and it is above all Allah or God or Vishnu etc. 
 

 

 

 

 

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You are quoting an Exceptional case of one person. 
While the reality is that millions of others indeed suffered. 
 
You say that Brahmins considered Dalits as Hindu too.
But sad and brutal reality is this that they didn't considered Dalits as Human Beings. 
So, hindu or no hindu, what difference is it going to make when they were not even Human Beings for upper caste Hindus? 
 
You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to enter the Mandirs? Or Mandirs became filthy due to their presence?
 
You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to touch and read the holy Hindu Books? Or were they beaten for entering the Mandirs and touching and reading the holy books? 
 
===
 
Slavery was evil. 
But Dalits suffered even more than the slaves. 
 
Even in the Islamic Slavery (which is in itself worse kind of ZULM upon the humanity), human beings were not so much humiliated and not treated as badly as in the Hindu Caste System. 
 
Sorry if you feel uncomfortable from my honest opinion. For me Humanity is sacred and it is above all Allah or God or Vishnu etc. 
 
 
 
 
 


"They didn't consider dalits as human beings". "Dalits suffered more than slaves".

Those are bold statements. Wonder if you could back them up. But then again you say they are your opinions. So I guess that's what they are, your opinions.

You seem to know a lot about the history of dalits. So you can definitely provide some evidence that hindu scriptures advocated killing dalits, right?


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2 hours ago, nikred said:

"They didn't consider dalits as human beings". "Dalits suffered more than slaves".

Those are bold statements. Wonder if you could back them up. But then again you say they are your opinions. So I guess that's what they are, your opinions.

You seem to know a lot about the history of dalits. So you can definitely provide some evidence that hindu scriptures advocated killing dalits, right?

 

 

I asked you simple questions, like:

 

1. Were Dallits allowed to enter the Mandir? Even the Muslims slaves were allowed to enter the mosque and even to lead the prayer. They were standing side by side with other Free Muslims in the mosque. 
Same is true for the slavery in Christianity and Judaism. 
 

2. Were Dallits allowed to touch the holy books and read them? 
You again didn't answer it. 

Again slaves were not only allowed to touch and read the holy books, but they were even allowed to lead the prayers. 

 

3. Slaves were set free constantly. Or they were able to make a contract and buy themselves freedom. Afterwards, they got the equal rights as normal free person. 
But in India caste system, Dalits got no such opportunity to get rid of this humility. 

 

Now I once again ask you to tell us how then Dalits not suffered more than the slaves, when they were considered ETERNAL filthy and creation which should be humiliated? 

 

Slavery and Caste system is like bad and worse. And both Muslims and Hindus are culprits here. 

 

4. And I didn't say that Dalits were killed. 

 

For for their humiliation, only this one word of "Untouchable" is enough (if you really have some humanity in you). 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You are quoting an Exceptional case of one person. 

While the reality is that millions of others indeed suffered. 

Source?

 

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You say that Brahmins considered Dalits as Hindu too.

But sad and brutal reality is this that they didn't considered Dalits as Human Beings. 

Source?

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

So, hindu or no hindu, what difference is it going to make when they were not even Human Beings for upper caste Hindus?

Source?

 

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to enter the Mandirs? Or Mandirs became filthy due to their presence?

Source that no Dalit was even allowed in any Mandir over the 5-8000 year history of Hinduism?

 

4 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

You say they were considered Hindu. But were they allowed to touch and read the holy Hindu Books? Or were they beaten for entering the Mandirs and touching and reading the holy books? 

Source that no "Dalits" were ever allowed to read/touch holy books and all were beaten for entering Mandirs/reading the holy books over the 5-8000 year history of Hindusim

 

Don't waste my time with your nonsense propaganda. Provide evidence.

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10 hours ago, Moochad said:

Thanks buddy for the informative post, it seems only White Males and Jewish people are free-speech absolutists in the US. I wonder why that is? I would think Asians who come from more totalitarian regimes like China would appreciate the right to speak freely more.

 

That foreign born percentage of 29.3% is astoundingly low, I also wonder if some of the Donald Trump backlash was because of this?  

I can only say this from my anecdotal perspective, but at the university I work at currently in the states, many of the Drumpf fans are those people who feel like "PC culture" is infringing on their "free expression" in areas like the internet and video games, but this demographic is the 18-22 year old crowd. 

 

For the most part, it seems, in my opinion, that three factors brought Drumpf upon the world: economic disenfranchisement of the white working class; a reactionary development of white identity politics in response to black/asian/hispanic identity politics in the US; and Hillary herself being one of the worst Democratic candidates in recent memory(Bernie Sanders wasn't much better)

 

"Free speech" is just a minor issue to most people, not something people will vote/not-vote over in my opinion. In India itself, the people who claim to be concerned with it are the same people who effectively banned it in the first place, yet they face no significant electoral backlash in response. There is no reason to assume anything different would happen in the US or the rest of the Western countries. 

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48 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

For the most part, it seems, in my opinion, that three factors brought Drumpf upon the world: economic disenfranchisement of the white working class; a reactionary development of white identity politics in response to black/asian/hispanic identity politics in the US; and Hillary herself being one of the worst Democratic candidates in recent memory(Bernie Sanders wasn't much better)

I disagree here, Bernie was much worse than Hillary. Bernie was a self-proclaimed Socialist, which is a disastrous economic policy for any country. Hillary at least was not that.   

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1 hour ago, Moochad said:

Source?

 

Source?

Source?

 

Source that no Dalit was even allowed in any Mandir over the 5-8000 year history of Hinduism?

 

Brother, your problem is this that you don't want Justice, but you want to defend Hindu practices in every possible way. 

 

You want to seek refuge in ancient religious texts, and therefore you inserting the argument of 5-8000 years of history, while neglecting all the practices of upper caste Hindus in the last 2400 years, after the introduction of this caste system. 

 

The old vedas and religious books are vague and they offer nothing to the modern Human Being. They were not even good enough to stop the introduction of this evil caste system. 

 

Google and read how even today Brahmins prohibit the entrance of Dalits in the temples. But you want to caste doubts about this reality of last 2400 years by bringing the discussion of ancient Hindu Texts. 

 

You want a source, then just look the hatred in the hearts of upper caste Hindus when they talk about Dalits even today. 

 

===

I am no good in Hindu holy texts. But I judge the Hinduism from the practices of upper caste Hindus today, which are proof enough for me for their corruption and anti-human behaviour, just as slavery. 

 

Nevertheless, it seems that texts also exist for these practices.

 


 

http://www.trinicenter.com/more/India/invasionsandracism.htm

 

Apartheid Varna System and Other Caste Systems

 

 

Sudroids Seen as Animals


The Sudroid blacks are repeatedly referred to as 'animals', & never treated as humans in the Hindu scriptures.

" Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl, or a corw, he shall perform the penance for the murder of a Sudra."
-- [ Manu IX.132 ]

 

" 'You may breed cows and dogs in your house,' wrote Mr. M.C. Raja. 'You may drink the urine of cows and swallow cowdung to expiate your sins, but you shall not approach an Adi Dravida"
-- [ Inf ]

 

" The murder of a Sudra by a Brahman is equal only to killing a cat or a frog or a cow "
[ Stat ] [ Wilk.248 ].

 

Whereas Brahmans are classed with gods, Sudras are classed with animals:

 

" Elephants, horses, Sudras and contemptiable Mlecchas, lions, tigers, and boars form the middle dark condition"
-- [ Manu i.43 ] [ Muir I.41 ]

 

The Sudra Black is also not allowed to participate in any rites of the Aryan Vaishnavite religion : " A Brahman should never be the guru of a Sudra. 'While the first part of a Brahman's name should indicate holiness that of a Kshatriya's power and that of a Vashya's wealth, that of a Sudra 's should indicate contempt. The Veda is never to be read in the presence of a Sudra, and for him no sacrifice is to be performed. He has no business with solemn rites." [ Stat ] [ Wilk.247-8 ].

 

Later, Vaisyas were degraded to the status of Sudras : " Vish [ Vaisya ] is food for the kshatriya" [ Sat.Br.3.3.2.8; Vedic Cosmology, Rajiv Verma, New Age International Ltd. New Delhi, 1996, p.110 ]

 

 

Enforced Illiteracy


To eonforce their domination over the subjugated races, all these and especially the negroid Sudras, were forcibly kept in illiteracy. This maintained the Brahmin state.

 

Sudra Blacks are not allowed to even read the Vedas, and are punished by having their tongue cut out if they do so. If they hear the Vedas, they are to have molten tin poured into their ears. The Vedas are meant to be read only by Aryans :

 

" A Sudra has no right even to listen to the Veda. Recitation of or listening to this sacred book is exclusively a privilege of the Aryan Hindus. There is provision of severe punishment for a Sudra, in case he dares to enjoy this privilege. If he "overheard a recitation of the Vedas, molten lac or tin was to be poured into his mouth; if he repeated recitation of the Vedas, his tongue should be cut; and if he remembered Vedic hymns, his body was to be torn into pieces."
-- [ Tirth ]; cited in [ Stat ]

 

That this rule was actually enforced is proven by the account of Alberuni, who visited India in the 10th century AD :

 

" The Vaisya and the Sudra are not allowed to hear it [ the Veda ], much less to pronounce and recite it. If such a thing can be proved against one of them, the Brahmans drag him before the magistrate, and he is punished by having his tongue cut off ."
-- [ al-B.i.125 Ch.XII ]

 

and again,

 

" Every act that is considered the privelege of the Brahman, such as saying prayers, the reciting of the Veda, and offering of sacfirices to the fire, is forbidden to him, to such a degree that when, eg. a Sudra or a Vaisya is proved to have recited the Veda, he is accused by the Brahmans before the ruler, and the latter will order his tongue to be cut off . However, the meditation on God [ is not prohibited ]."
-- [ al-B.ii.127 Ch.LXIV ]

 

Hence, the caste system did not decrease in severity right from the Aryan invasion in 1500 BC upto the Islamic conquest ca. 1000 AD. That implies a 2500 year period during which the apartheid caste system was in operation - longer than anywhere else in the world.

 

Some scholars have claimed that the laws of Manu were not necessarily followed in practice. This is merely Brahmanic-Aryan propaganda, since the account of Alberuni quoted above shows that the law was enforced in all its severity. In addition, the accounts of countless Greek and Arab travellers prove that the caste system was enforced during the medieval period, and the account of European travellers, especially English ones, proves that it was in force in South India till the British conquest. Thus, an Aryan Nair would shoot a Dravidian at sight. However, the Islamic invasion relaxed caste systems to a great degree, when the liberal Quranic law substituted the harsh Vedic laws.

 

For contesting the claims of the pretentious fair-skinned Aryans, the black Sudra is to have his tongue cut off, hot oil poured in his ear, or a nail thrust into his mouth :

 

·         " A once-born man (Sudra) who insults a twice-born man (Aryan) with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin."
-- [ Manu VIII.270 ]

 

·         " If he mentions the names and castes (Jati) of the (twice-born) with contumely, an iron nail, 10 fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth ."
-- [ Manu VIII.271 ]

 

·         " If he arrogantly teaches Brahmins their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears . "
-- [ Manu VIII.272 ]

 

And again,

"Rites are declared to be prescribed by the Vedas for the three (highest) castes... Next the Sudras, produced from extinction, are destitute of rites. Hence they are not entitled to be admitted to the purificatory ceremonies, nor does sacred science belong to them. Just as the cloud of smoke which rises from the fire on the friction of the fule, and is dissipated, is of no service in the sacrficial rite, so too the Shudras wandering over the Earth, are altogether (Useless for purpose of sacrifice) owing to their birth , their mode of life devoid of purity and their want of observances prescribed in the Veda."
-- [ Muir I. 153 ] [ Hari.11820 ]

 

" With whatever limb a man of a low caste does hurt to (a man of the three highest castes) even that limb shall be cut off ; that is the teaching of Manu.
He who raises his hand or a stick, shall have his hand cut off ; he who in his anger kicks with his foot, shall have his foot cut off ."
-- [ Manu VIII.279-280 ]

 

" If a low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and is banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed."
-- [ Manu VIII.281 ]

 

" If out of arrogance he [ a Sudra ] spits (on a superior), the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off; if he urines (on him), the penis; if he breaks wind (against him), the anus."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

" If ha lays fold of the hair(of a superior), let the king unhesitatingly cut off his hands , likewise (if he takes him) by the feet, the breard, the neck or the scrotum."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

After Parasurama annihilated the Kshatry race,

" the Brahmans did not sell their sacred lore, nor recite the Vedas in the vicinity of Sudras"
-- [ Muir.I.452 ] [ MBh.Adi.2474 ]

 

 


 

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1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Brother, your problem is this that you don't want Justice, but you want to defend Hindu practices in every possible way. 

 

You want to seek refuge in ancient religious texts, and therefore you inserting the argument of 5-8000 years of history, while neglecting all the practices of upper caste Hindus in the last 2400 years, after the introduction of this caste system. 

 

The old vedas and religious books are vague and they offer nothing to the modern Human Being. They were not even good enough to stop the introduction of this evil caste system. 

 

Google and read how even today Brahmins prohibit the entrance of Dalits in the temples. But you want to caste doubts about this reality of last 2400 years by bringing the discussion of ancient Hindu Texts. 

 

You want a source, then just look the hatred in the hearts of upper caste Hindus when they talk about Dalits even today. 

 

===

I am no good in Hindu holy texts. But I judge the Hinduism from the practices of upper caste Hindus today, which are proof enough for me for their corruption and anti-human behaviour, just as slavery. 

 

Nevertheless, it seems that texts also exist for these practices.

 


 

http://www.trinicenter.com/more/India/invasionsandracism.htm

 

Apartheid Varna System and Other Caste Systems

 

 

Sudroids Seen as Animals


The Sudroid blacks are repeatedly referred to as 'animals', & never treated as humans in the Hindu scriptures.

" Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl, or a corw, he shall perform the penance for the murder of a Sudra."
-- [ Manu IX.132 ]

 

" 'You may breed cows and dogs in your house,' wrote Mr. M.C. Raja. 'You may drink the urine of cows and swallow cowdung to expiate your sins, but you shall not approach an Adi Dravida"
-- [ Inf ]

 

" The murder of a Sudra by a Brahman is equal only to killing a cat or a frog or a cow "
[ Stat ] [ Wilk.248 ].

 

Whereas Brahmans are classed with gods, Sudras are classed with animals:

 

" Elephants, horses, Sudras and contemptiable Mlecchas, lions, tigers, and boars form the middle dark condition"
-- [ Manu i.43 ] [ Muir I.41 ]

 

The Sudra Black is also not allowed to participate in any rites of the Aryan Vaishnavite religion : " A Brahman should never be the guru of a Sudra. 'While the first part of a Brahman's name should indicate holiness that of a Kshatriya's power and that of a Vashya's wealth, that of a Sudra 's should indicate contempt. The Veda is never to be read in the presence of a Sudra, and for him no sacrifice is to be performed. He has no business with solemn rites." [ Stat ] [ Wilk.247-8 ].

 

Later, Vaisyas were degraded to the status of Sudras : " Vish [ Vaisya ] is food for the kshatriya" [ Sat.Br.3.3.2.8; Vedic Cosmology, Rajiv Verma, New Age International Ltd. New Delhi, 1996, p.110 ]

 

 

Enforced Illiteracy


To eonforce their domination over the subjugated races, all these and especially the negroid Sudras, were forcibly kept in illiteracy. This maintained the Brahmin state.

 

Sudra Blacks are not allowed to even read the Vedas, and are punished by having their tongue cut out if they do so. If they hear the Vedas, they are to have molten tin poured into their ears. The Vedas are meant to be read only by Aryans :

 

" A Sudra has no right even to listen to the Veda. Recitation of or listening to this sacred book is exclusively a privilege of the Aryan Hindus. There is provision of severe punishment for a Sudra, in case he dares to enjoy this privilege. If he "overheard a recitation of the Vedas, molten lac or tin was to be poured into his mouth; if he repeated recitation of the Vedas, his tongue should be cut; and if he remembered Vedic hymns, his body was to be torn into pieces."
-- [ Tirth ]; cited in [ Stat ]

 

That this rule was actually enforced is proven by the account of Alberuni, who visited India in the 10th century AD :

 

" The Vaisya and the Sudra are not allowed to hear it [ the Veda ], much less to pronounce and recite it. If such a thing can be proved against one of them, the Brahmans drag him before the magistrate, and he is punished by having his tongue cut off ."
-- [ al-B.i.125 Ch.XII ]

 

and again,

 

" Every act that is considered the privelege of the Brahman, such as saying prayers, the reciting of the Veda, and offering of sacfirices to the fire, is forbidden to him, to such a degree that when, eg. a Sudra or a Vaisya is proved to have recited the Veda, he is accused by the Brahmans before the ruler, and the latter will order his tongue to be cut off . However, the meditation on God [ is not prohibited ]."
-- [ al-B.ii.127 Ch.LXIV ]

 

Hence, the caste system did not decrease in severity right from the Aryan invasion in 1500 BC upto the Islamic conquest ca. 1000 AD. That implies a 2500 year period during which the apartheid caste system was in operation - longer than anywhere else in the world.

 

Some scholars have claimed that the laws of Manu were not necessarily followed in practice. This is merely Brahmanic-Aryan propaganda, since the account of Alberuni quoted above shows that the law was enforced in all its severity. In addition, the accounts of countless Greek and Arab travellers prove that the caste system was enforced during the medieval period, and the account of European travellers, especially English ones, proves that it was in force in South India till the British conquest. Thus, an Aryan Nair would shoot a Dravidian at sight. However, the Islamic invasion relaxed caste systems to a great degree, when the liberal Quranic law substituted the harsh Vedic laws.

 

For contesting the claims of the pretentious fair-skinned Aryans, the black Sudra is to have his tongue cut off, hot oil poured in his ear, or a nail thrust into his mouth :

 

·         " A once-born man (Sudra) who insults a twice-born man (Aryan) with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin."
-- [ Manu VIII.270 ]

 

·         " If he mentions the names and castes (Jati) of the (twice-born) with contumely, an iron nail, 10 fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth ."
-- [ Manu VIII.271 ]

 

·         " If he arrogantly teaches Brahmins their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears . "
-- [ Manu VIII.272 ]

 

And again,

"Rites are declared to be prescribed by the Vedas for the three (highest) castes... Next the Sudras, produced from extinction, are destitute of rites. Hence they are not entitled to be admitted to the purificatory ceremonies, nor does sacred science belong to them. Just as the cloud of smoke which rises from the fire on the friction of the fule, and is dissipated, is of no service in the sacrficial rite, so too the Shudras wandering over the Earth, are altogether (Useless for purpose of sacrifice) owing to their birth , their mode of life devoid of purity and their want of observances prescribed in the Veda."
-- [ Muir I. 153 ] [ Hari.11820 ]

 

" With whatever limb a man of a low caste does hurt to (a man of the three highest castes) even that limb shall be cut off ; that is the teaching of Manu.
He who raises his hand or a stick, shall have his hand cut off ; he who in his anger kicks with his foot, shall have his foot cut off ."
-- [ Manu VIII.279-280 ]

 

" If a low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and is banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed."
-- [ Manu VIII.281 ]

 

" If out of arrogance he [ a Sudra ] spits (on a superior), the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off; if he urines (on him), the penis; if he breaks wind (against him), the anus."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

" If ha lays fold of the hair(of a superior), let the king unhesitatingly cut off his hands , likewise (if he takes him) by the feet, the breard, the neck or the scrotum."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

After Parasurama annihilated the Kshatry race,

" the Brahmans did not sell their sacred lore, nor recite the Vedas in the vicinity of Sudras"
-- [ Muir.I.452 ] [ MBh.Adi.2474 ]

 

Even though I dont label myself as hindu, from whatever limited I know and I learnt, the religion absolutely is NOT "a religion of books". Who cares what is written in manusmriti. I dont accept a word of it. Our constitution gives equal rights to everyone, I personally can eat the food cooked by a person who others think as shudra, i can share the same food, i can sleep in teh same room, i can do my meditation with the person in the room, i can wash a feet of kid under 6 just like i would of any other small kid.

No difference. This is not same as "you know what". You would think but this is not a Pakistan. This is India and it is different. These text book mean zilch and nobody heeds to these scripts.

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1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

Brother, your problem is this that you don't want Justice, but you want to defend Hindu practices in every possible way. 

The old vedas and religious books are vague and they offer nothing to the modern Human Being. They were not even good enough to stop the introduction of this evil caste system. 

Google and read how even today Brahmins prohibit the entrance of Dalits in the temples. But you want to caste doubts about this reality of last 2400 years by bringing the discussion of ancient Hindu Texts. 

Don't deflect from your inability to provide evidence for your/their fantastic claims by trying to psychoanalyze me, I have enough experience in psychiatry myself, and I can do it to you as well:


You want to seek refuge in your own flawed understanding of Hinduism and humanity assuming you have discovered some unique truth that no one else already has considered. This derives from your own insecure position in your own society with who you consider to be the dominant powers of it, which you are projecting onto people you neither have any experience with nor know to any significant level, displaying a lazy thinking of seeing patterns where they don't exist and creating false stereotypes to make yourself appear intellectual. See, there is a psychoanalysis of you,

 

now stop with the personal comments and provide sources for your claims

 

I haven't neglected anything, I asked for proof of everything you claimed, which you have neglected...  

 

You created a strawman argument implying that I  said there was no discrimination of dalits, when no one has said that, its obvious there has been discrimination, but apparently you don't understand that rape, murder, etc aren't the same thing as discrimination, 

 

Vedas aren't judged by what a Pakistani atheist deems valuable or not valuable, your opinions are yours to have, but don't matter in any quantifiable manner to Hindus...I can say your atheism is so weak that it is dying out globally and produced a number of the biggest mass murders in the history of humanity including Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot;

 

don't deflect from providing evidence for your claims

 

You ask me to google, providing nothing but anecdotal evidence for something no one contested, that there was/is discrimination against dalits

 

Here is another anecdote

http://zeenews.india.com/news/gujarat/narendra-modi-govt-for-dalits-as-priests_830975.html

Gujarat government promotes dalit priests 

 

There are lower castes who have hatred and say/do bigoted, hateful things to upper castes

Read about the Dravidian movement and there hatred for Brahmins and anti-Brahmin violence in Tamil Nadu or the politicians Kanshi Ram/Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh also read @Tibarn post on dalit issue

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

I am no good in Hindu holy texts. But I judge the Hinduism from the practices of upper caste Hindus today, which are proof enough for me for their corruption and anti-human behaviour, just as slavery. 

 

Nevertheless, it seems that texts also exist for these practices.

 


 

http://www.trinicenter.com/more/India/invasionsandracism.htm

So you admit you know little of Hindu "holy texts", yet you feel the need to lecture others acting as if we don't read our own texts? Or, are you so uninformed on Hinduism to think that it is a text based religion?  

 

Related to the website you linked to claims that Aryans invaded India (disproven), and that the "caste system" is racial in origin calling shudras as shudroids and claiming they were black ie Africans.  It is basically a Dravidianist propaganda piece or related to the Afro-Dalit movement in the West. 

 

There is zero evidence of any Aryan invasion into India or that "shudras" are different racial origin than "upper castes" and none whatsoever that they were "black" ie African, which is what that propaganda piece you provided claims, but that is off topic

 

Quote

" 'You may breed cows and dogs in your house,' wrote Mr. M.C. Raja. 'You may drink the urine of cows and swallow cowdung to expiate your sins, but you shall not approach an Adi Dravida"
-- [ Inf ]

MC Raja was a Dravidian propagandist, this isn't a reference to a text, this is his own opinion, and you are passing that off...  

 

Quote

The Sudra Black is also not allowed to participate in any rites of the Aryan Vaishnavite religion : " A Brahman should never be the guru of a Sudra. 'While the first part of a Brahman's name should indicate holiness that of a Kshatriya's power and that of a Vashya's wealth, that of a Sudra 's should indicate contempt. The Veda is never to be read in the presence of a Sudra, and for him no sacrifice is to be performed. He has no business with solemn rites." [ Stat ] [ Wilk.247-8 ].

To eonforce their domination over the subjugated races, all these and especially the negroid Sudras, were forcibly kept in illiteracy. This maintained the Brahmin state.

 

Sudra Blacks are not allowed to even read the Vedas, and are punished by having their tongue cut out if they do so. If they hear the Vedas, they are to have molten tin poured into their ears. The Vedas are meant to be read only by Aryans :

 

" A Sudra has no right even to listen to the Veda. Recitation of or listening to this sacred book is exclusively a privilege of the Aryan Hindus. There is provision of severe punishment for a Sudra, in case he dares to enjoy this privilege. If he "overheard a recitation of the Vedas, molten lac or tin was to be poured into his mouth; if he repeated recitation of the Vedas, his tongue should be cut; and if he remembered Vedic hymns, his body was to be torn into pieces."
-- [ Tirth ]; cited in [ Stat ]

That this rule was actually enforced is proven by the account of Alberuni, who visited India in the 10th century AD :

 

" The Vaisya and the Sudra are not allowed to hear it [ the Veda ], much less to pronounce and recite it. If such a thing can be proved against one of them, the Brahmans drag him before the magistrate, and he is punished by having his tongue cut off ."
-- [ al-B.i.125 Ch.XII ]

" Every act that is considered the privelege of the Brahman, such as saying prayers, the reciting of the Veda, and offering of sacfirices to the fire, is forbidden to him, to such a degree that when, eg. a Sudra or a Vaisya is proved to have recited the Veda, he is accused by the Brahmans before the ruler, and the latter will order his tongue to be cut off . However, the meditation on God [ is not prohibited ]."
-- [ al-B.ii.127 Ch.LXIV ]

" The murder of a Sudra by a Brahman is equal only to killing a cat or a frog or a cow "
[ Stat ] [ Wilk.248 ].

Hence, the caste system did not decrease in severity right from the Aryan invasion in 1500 BC upto the Islamic conquest ca. 1000 AD. That implies a 2500 year period during which the apartheid caste system was in operation - longer than anywhere else in the world.

After Parasurama annihilated the Kshatry race,

" the Brahmans did not sell their sacred lore, nor recite the Vedas in the vicinity of Sudras"
-- [ Muir.I.452 ] [ MBh.Adi.2474 ]

And again,

"Rites are declared to be prescribed by the Vedas for the three (highest) castes... Next the Sudras, produced from extinction, are destitute of rites. Hence they are not entitled to be admitted to the purificatory ceremonies, nor does sacred science belong to them. Just as the cloud of smoke which rises from the fire on the friction of the fule, and is dissipated, is of no service in the sacrficial rite, so too the Shudras wandering over the Earth, are altogether (Useless for purpose of sacrifice) owing to their birth , their mode of life devoid of purity and their want of observances prescribed in the Veda."
-- [ Muir I. 153 ] [ Hari.11820 ]

Some scholars have claimed that the laws of Manu were not necessarily followed in practice. This is merely Brahmanic-Aryan propaganda, since the account of Alberuni quoted above shows that the law was enforced in all its severity. In addition, the accounts of countless Greek and Arab travellers prove that the caste system was enforced during the medieval period, and the account of European travellers, especially English ones, proves that it was in force in South India till the British conquest. Thus, an Aryan Nair would shoot a Dravidian at sight. However, the Islamic invasion relaxed caste systems to a great degree, when the liberal Quranic law substituted the harsh Vedic laws.

 

For contesting the claims of the pretentious fair-skinned Aryans, the black Sudra is to have his tongue cut off, hot oil poured in his ear, or a nail thrust into his mouth :

Where exactly are these quotes taken from? They can be disregarded unless they actually from a specific source.

 

The bolded is disproven itself by the fact that Yagnas/sacrifices related to Satyanarayan Katha , are done by Shudras by themselves at their homes even today without "upper castes"

 

Another unsourced statement, which also contradicts your own claims. Gau-hatya, killing of cows, is one of the prime sins in Hinduism, they are referred to as Aghnya.  Even death penalty has been used for Gau-hatya. So you just posted something that killing Sudras is one of the greatest crimes in Hinduism and can lead to death penalty... 

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

Sudroids Seen as Animals


The Sudroid blacks are repeatedly referred to as 'animals', & never treated as humans in the Hindu scriptures.

" Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl, or a corw, he shall perform the penance for the murder of a Sudra."
-- [ Manu IX.132 ]


 

hereas Brahmans are classed with gods, Sudras are classed with animals:

 

" Elephants, horses, Sudras and contemptiable Mlecchas, lions, tigers, and boars form the middle dark condition"
-- [ Manu i.43 ] [ Muir I.41 ]  

 

Later, Vaisyas were degraded to the status of Sudras : " Vish [ Vaisya ] is food for the kshatriya" [ Sat.Br.3.3.2.8; Vedic Cosmology, Rajiv Verma, New Age International Ltd. New Delhi, 1996, p.110 ]

As expected, out of context snippets from the Manu smriti, laced with Dravidian nonsense of Shudras being Black...

 

1 of the references literally states that penance will be done for the murder of a Shudra. 

 

0 reference here where Brahmins are considered gods, just the opinion of a Dravidianist passed off as a fact. 

 

And then the last one claims that Vaisya are food for Kshatriya, so it is your contention that Kshatriya literally ate Vaisyas :laugh:

3 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Enforced Illiteracy

and again,


         " A once-born man (Sudra) who insults a twice-born man (Aryan) with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin."
-- [ Manu VIII.270 ]

 

·         " If he mentions the names and castes (Jati) of the (twice-born) with contumely, an iron nail, 10 fingers long, shall be thrust red-hot into his mouth ."
-- [ Manu VIII.271 ]

 

·         " If he arrogantly teaches Brahmins their duty, the king shall cause hot oil to be poured into his mouth and into his ears . "
-- [ Manu VIII.272 ]

 

" With whatever limb a man of a low caste does hurt to (a man of the three highest castes) even that limb shall be cut off ; that is the teaching of Manu.
He who raises his hand or a stick, shall have his hand cut off ; he who in his anger kicks with his foot, shall have his foot cut off ."
-- [ Manu VIII.279-280 ]

 

" If a low-caste man who tries to place himself on the same seat with a man of a high caste, shall be branded on his hip and is banished, or (the king) shall cause his buttock to be gashed."
-- [ Manu VIII.281 ]

 

" If out of arrogance he [ a Sudra ] spits (on a superior), the king shall cause both his lips to be cut off; if he urines (on him), the penis; if he breaks wind (against him), the anus."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

" If ha lays fold of the hair(of a superior), let the king unhesitatingly cut off his hands , likewise (if he takes him) by the feet, the breard, the neck or the scrotum."
-- [ Manu VIII.282 ]

 

All this of Shudras being denied education was disproven earlier in this thread itself by @Tibarn in his earlier post where he references a book the Beautiful Tree which quotes the British who themselves observed schools were filled with Shudras, etc

The idea that Shudras were discriminated against as propagated by you is disproven by the evidence from ancient and medieval India where numerous Shudra dynasties were formed, including the Mauryas, Marathas, Reddys, and Jats

 

The handful of the statements which actually denote violence, are part of a penal code regarding what are considered punishable offenses according to what 1 smriti says , not justification/evidence of random/proactive raping and murdering which is what you claimed... 

 

And still none of that backs up your claim that Hindus have murdered and raped Dalits for 2000 years.

 

Your entire post mentions Shudras which are considered a distinct group from Dalits by most. Shudras are the majority of the Hindu populace, >60% of the entire population, including all the dominant castes of India such as Marathas, Jats, Yadavs, Gujjars, Patels.

 

I wasted my time reading all that and you still haven't given a specific reference which supports your claim that Dalits were murdered and raped by Hindus for 2000 years. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Moochad said:

I wasted my time reading all that and you still haven't given a specific reference which supports your claim that Dalits were murdered and raped by Hindus for 2000 years. 

Friendly advice, do yourself a favor, and read the entire post at once instead of replying one by one to each statement, 

 

you yourself posted this

On 6/21/2018 at 12:28 PM, Moochad said:

Both are baseless bunkum. Unless this fellow can first provide that, there is no reason to go further.

regarding what Ranga said, so why waste time with a padosi who literally posted some BS from some Afro-Dalit movement propaganda page? 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Moochad said:

I disagree here, Bernie was much worse than Hillary. Bernie was a self-proclaimed Socialist, which is a disastrous economic policy for any country. Hillary at least was not that.   

I wasn't clear, as I meant that purely as a candidate for election, Hilary was worse, as she has so much baggage over the years of her involvement in politics...

 

Hillary would've been a much better president than Bernie in my view. 

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6 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

Friendly advice, do yourself a favor, and read the entire post at once instead of replying one by one to each statement, 

 

you yourself posted this

regarding what Ranga said, so why waste time with a padosi who literally posted some BS from some Afro-Dalit movement propaganda page? 

 

 

 

 

I was going to do just that, but then this person tried to psychoanalyze me, and I got a bit annoyed :((

 

This is absolutely bizarre, posting a million unrelated quotes on Shudras from 1 smriti text to claim that Dalits were murdered and raped for 2000 years. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Moochad said:

I was going to do just that, but then this person tried to psychoanalyze me, and I got a bit annoyed :((

 

This is absolutely bizarre, posting a million unrelated quotes on Shudras from 1 smriti text to claim that Dalits were murdered and raped for 2000 years. 

 

 

Don't know that Dar guy, but even some yindoos don't know that smritis aren't the same as shrutis and that smritis are usually with multiple interpretations and written different ways. People acting like smriti are like the Koran as a divine revelation :phehe:  

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7 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

Don't know that Dar guy, but even some yindoos don't know that smritis aren't the same as shrutis and that smritis are usually with multiple interpretations and written different ways. People acting like smriti are like the Koran as a divine revelation :phehe:  

My favorite is that some pick and choose what they want to from that one smriti, manu smriti, and extrapolate whatever they want from it... not even knowing that most Hindus are either Vishnu/Shiva/Mata followers, so they have little need to even need the smritis

 

there is one part of the manu smriti that says something along the lines of "upper castes will not live in a country ruled by a Shudra king"

 

so we are to believe that all the Brahmins left the entirety of India the moment Mauryan empire came into being because Chandragupta and Ashoka were Shudras and they united more or less the entirety of what is considered Bharat. I guess all the Brahmins went to China and then came back when some Kshatriya came to power somewhere and later when Shivaji/Shambji were kings they ran away from Maharashtra to gods know where and then came back when the Peshwas were in charge . :rotfl: 

 

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1 minute ago, Moochad said:

My favorite is that some pick and choose what they want to from that one smriti, manu smriti, and extrapolate whatever they want from it... not even knowing that most Hindus are either Vishnu/Shiva/Mata followers, so they have little need to even need the smritis

 

there is one part of the manu smriti that says something along the lines of "upper castes will not live in a country ruled by a Shudra king"

 

so we are to believe that all the Brahmins left the entirety of India the moment Mauryan empire came into being because Chandragupta and Ashoka were Shudras and they united more or less the entirety of what is considered Bharat. I guess all the Brahmins went to China and then came back when some Kshatriya came to power somewhere and later when Shivaji/Shambji were kings they ran away from Maharashtra to gods know where and then came back when the Peshwas were in charge . :rotfl: 

 

Yeh sab chodd do, at least now I know that a sudroid like me is African 

 

My hair is already curly, maybe I should try to grow an afro now:yess:

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1 minute ago, Tibarn said:

Yeh sab chodd do, at least now I know that a sudroid like me is African 

 

My hair is already curly, maybe I should try to grow an afro now:yess:

tu American citizenship lele, tereko quota millega 

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1 hour ago, Moochad said:

Don't deflect from your inability to provide evidence for your/their fantastic claims by trying to psychoanalyze me, I have enough experience in psychiatry myself, and I can do it to you as well:


You want to seek refuge in your own flawed understanding of Hinduism and humanity assuming you have discovered some unique truth that no one else already has considered. This derives from your own insecure position in your own society with who you consider to be the dominant powers of it, which you are projecting onto people you neither have any experience with nor know to any significant level, displaying a lazy thinking of seeing patterns where they don't exist and creating false stereotypes to make yourself appear intellectual. See, there is a psychoanalysis of you,

 

now stop with the personal comments and provide sources for your claims

 

I haven't neglected anything, I asked for proof of everything you claimed, which you have neglected...  

 

You created a strawman argument implying that I  said there was no discrimination of dalits, when no one has said that, its obvious there has been discrimination, but apparently you don't understand that rape, murder, etc aren't the same thing as discrimination, 

 

You  have to reread my post. I didn't claim about murder or rape of Dalits.
I didn't read much about the history of India, but everywhere it has been written that Dalits were hated, humiliated, discriminated. 

I pointed out that life of Dalits was made even worse than slaves. 

I even today still see this same hatred among the high caste Hindus where they still consider Dalits so much untouchable that this makes their status even worse than the slaves in Islam. And google is witness to it. 

It is a hard fact, but reality, irrespective of you accept it or try to deny it by making excuses. 

 

And I am neither a psychiatrist, nor an intellectual. I am a normal person with normal intelligence, but it is enough to see the plight of Dalits since centuries in India. 

 

Quote

Vedas aren't judged by what a Pakistani atheist deems valuable or not valuable, your opinions are yours to have, but don't matter in any quantifiable manner to Hindus...I can say your atheism is so weak that it is dying out globally and produced a number of the biggest mass murders in the history of humanity including Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot;

You are fully free to criticize the atheism and bring forward your opinion and you are very much welcome. We will discuss about Mao, Stalin and whatever criticism you have in new thread. 

 

Similarly, it is my right to express my honest opinions about the ancient texts, which hardly anyone understands today properly and which are no more helpful to the humanity today, and whose biggest failure was to stop the evil of caste system. 

 

I am a big fan of Buddha, but I even don't agree with the ancient practices of Buddhism which are obsolete today. But at least Buddha's teachings were against the caste system and for that I prefer Buddha above others in India. 

 

Quote

Here is another anecdote

http://zeenews.india.com/news/gujarat/narendra-modi-govt-for-dalits-as-priests_830975.html

Gujarat government promotes dalit priests 

Good move if intended with true heart for the sake of humanity and not for the politics. 

Nevertheless, please accept it that it is too little. And in no way it could prevent the higher caste Hindus from the blame of humiliating the Dalits for centuries. 

 

Quote

There are lower castes who have hatred and say/do bigoted, hateful things to upper castes

Read about the Dravidian movement and there hatred for Brahmins and anti-Brahmin violence in Tamil Nadu or the politicians Kanshi Ram/Mayawati in Uttar Pradesh also read @Tibarn post on dalit issue

You are quick to protest when someone hurts you 1%, but it is very easy for you to digest the 99% plight of others from your hands. 
Even slaves in whole world rebelled for not having equal rights. And here we have Dalits which were humiliated and treated even worse than the slaves. If they rebelled, then it is understandable. 

 

Quote

So you admit you know little of Hindu "holy texts", yet you feel the need to lecture others acting as if we don't read our own texts? Or, are you so uninformed on Hinduism to think that it is a text based religion?  

Plights of Dalits for centuries at the hands of high caste Hindus is so much obvious that one does not have to be an authority in Hindu Texts to know about it. 

Problem is this that you are trying to deny or belittle this hard reality by making excuses. 

 

Quote

Related to the website you linked to claims that Aryans invaded India (disproven), and that the "caste system" is racial in origin calling shudras as shudroids and claiming they were black ie Africans.  It is basically a Dravidianist propaganda piece or related to the Afro-Dalit movement in the West. 

I didn't present the Dravidianist claims.

But I presented the references provided by them.

And these references are from one of the most important book of Hinduism i.e. Manusmiriti which deals with "law of all the social classes", and considered to be the words of Brahma. 

 

Quote

Another unsourced statement, which also contradicts your own claims. Gau-hatya, killing of cows, is one of the prime sins in Hinduism, they are referred to as Aghnya.  Even death penalty has been used for Gau-hatya. So you just posted something that killing Sudras is one of the greatest crimes in Hinduism and can lead to death penalty... 

May I request you to please first exactly quote the reference before commenting. I don't know about which reference you are talking about and what exactly it states. 
 
All that I know is this that even Brahmins were killing and eating the cow till the time of Ashoka and even later on. It were the Buddhist who brought vegetarianism in India. 
 

Quote

1 of the references literally states that penance will be done for the murder of a Shudra. 

Once again, you have to first exactly quote the reference before commenting. 
And your comment here making ZERO sense. 

Here is the direct reference from Manusmriti (LINK):

 

मार्जारनकुलौ हत्वा चाषं मण्डूकमेव च । 
श्वगोधौलूककाकांश्च शूद्रहत्याव्रतं चरेत् ॥ १३१ ॥

Translation:

Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl and a crow,—he shall perform the penance of the ‘Śūdra-killer.’—(131)

 

Comparative notes by various authors

(verses 11.131-132)

Gautama (22-19).—‘For injuring a frog, an ichneumon, a crow, a chameleon, a musk-rat, a mouse or a dog (the penance is the same as that for the murder of a Vaiśya).’

Baudhāyana (1.19.6).—‘For killing a flamingo, a Bhāsa bird, a peacock, a Brāhmaṇī duck, a Pracetaka, a crow, an owl, a frog, a musk-rat, a dog, a Babhru, a common ichneumon, and so forth, the offender shall pay the same fine as for the killing of a Śūdra.

Āpastamba (1.25.13).—‘If a crow, a chameleon, a pea-cock, a Brāhmaṇī duck, a swan, the vulture called Bhāsa, a frog, an ichneumon, a musk-rat, or a dog has been killed, then the offender should perform the same penance as that for killing a Śūdra.

Vaṣhiṣṭha (21.24).—‘Having slain a dog, a cat, an ichneumon, a snake, a frog, or a rat,—one shall perform the Kṛcchra penance of twelve days’ duration, and also give something to a Brāhmaṇa.’

Viṣṇu (50.30-32).—‘If he has intentionally killed a dog, he should fast for three days. If he has unintentionally killed a mouse, or a cat, or an ichneumon, or a frog, or a Duṇḍubha snake, or a large serpent—he must fast for one day, and on the next day give a dish of milk, sesamum and rice mixed together to a Brāhmaṇa and give him an iron hoe as his fee: If he has unintentionally killed an iguana, or an owl, or a crow, or a fish, he must fast for three days.’

 

My Comments:


1. You are only trying to twist the Reality. 

 

2. Reality is this that killing of low caste people caused no punishment except for few day of fasting and giving something to Brahmana. 

 

I don't know how you could still keep on discussing this issue with me. 

Even in Islam killing of a slave means half the price of the blood of a free man.

 

But here Hindu Sacred Text is presenting a picture which is even worse than Islam. 

I just hope you could take out the prejudice, and start giving Humanity preference upon all others like religion and race and nationalism etc. 

 

Quote

All this of Shudras being denied education was disproven earlier in this thread itself by @Tibarn in his earlier post where he references a book the Beautiful Tree which quotes the British who themselves observed schools were filled with Shudras, etc

So sad that you once again twisting the facts. 

The talk was not about the ERA of the British who opened the gates of education to the lower caste people, or even the Mughal era which brought some relief to the lower caste people,  but we were talking about the practices of the high caste Hindus in the earlier centuries, where they prohibited the Dalits to even hear the sacred Hindu texts. 

PS: In schools of British Era, Dalits were not taking the religious education of sacred Hindu Books. 

 

Quote

The idea that Shudras were discriminated against as propagated by you is disproven by the evidence from ancient and medieval India where numerous Shudra dynasties were formed, including the Mauryas, Marathas, Reddys, and Jats

What about the Dalits? 


And did the Brahmins supported the Shudras to take the power? 

If Brahmins didn't support them, and the Shudras themselves took the power in their hands, then it does not go in the credit of Hindu sacred texts, which does not support the lower castes, and indeed discriminate against them. 
 

Edited by Alam_dar

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1 minute ago, Moochad said:

tu American citizenship lele, tereko quota millega 

saala Bharat me mera jaisa Sudroid ko reservation nahi mila, aur Amreeka ja kar African banna padega :((

 

yeh Brahmano ka saajish hai  :protest:

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tibarn said:

so why waste time with a padosi who literally posted some BS from some Afro-Dalit movement propaganda page? 

I wish one day people stop seeing other with the lens of nationality and religion. 

We are Human Beings first and should behave like this. 

But if you think it is a tool in your hands to discredit my opinion, then it is your own fate. 

Edited by Alam_dar

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38 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

Don't know that Dar guy, but even some yindoos don't know that smritis aren't the same as shrutis and that smritis are usually with multiple interpretations and written different ways. People acting like smriti are like the Koran as a divine revelation :phehe:  

For me Quran is the deception of Muhamad, and my opinion about Hindu texts is also not different. 

We have much better text in form of Indian Constitution, which is based upon the Humanity and not the caste system. 
Better believe in Indian constitution with true hearts. 

Unfortunately, Sangh Prawar still believe in the ancient texts more than the Indian Constitution, which is unfortunate. 

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