Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
The Dark Horse

Centre drops Tamil, 16 other languages from teacher test

Recommended Posts

@Gollum 

1. S. Sreesanth, Asin on top of my mind right now.

 

2. Find it hard to learn, find it boring to learn, fine don't learn. But don't discourage others to learn. 'No hindi in TN' - don't enforce such thoughts. Don't purposefully make it difficult for hindi speakers in TN.

 

Beyond that, it's a matter of one's own thought process - if I were tamil, I would definitely try to learn hindi even if I found it hard. Because 95% of India understands it. And I want to connect with them in the language that majority are most comfortable in. You personally don't want to learn then don't learn. There is no enforcement. 

 

4. That is a joke of an argument. 

Edited by randomGuy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@randomGuy India needs to be united on the basis of her dharmic roots. We were never one political unit before the arrival of Brits. But what kept us bound together? It was a combination of dharmic religions, philosophy, temples, monasteries, universities and saints. Great minds traversed the length and breadth of modern day SC and brought people culturally together and even on an intellectual level even though every 400 km either way had a different ruler. That time Bihar was like a foreign country to Tamils, similarly West India was foreign to Bengalis.....they wore different dresses, had different cuisine, temperament, language, customs etc but pilgrimages brought a Tanjore guy to Banaras, likewise from Mathura to Madurai, Nabadwip to Prayag, Gaya to Ajanta/Ellora and from Puri to Kedarnath. We need to stop fighting over caste, language, diet, customs etc and unite all dharmic people under one banner. Else we are doing a great disservice to our origins. Buddha, Mahavir, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Adi Sankara, Basavanna, Andal, Dayanand Saraswati, Kabir, Mirabai, Ramanuja, Guru Nanak, Ramdas, Surdas, Tulsidas, Tukaram etc all spoke different languages in various timelines in our history but united us people in ways no language can ever hope to achieve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

@Gollum 

1. S. Sreesanth, Asin on top of my mind right now.

 

2. Find it hard to learn, find it boring to learn, fine don't learn. But don't discourage others to learn. 'No hindi in TN' - don't enforce such thoughts. Don't purposefully make it difficult for hindi speakers in TN.

 

Beyond that, it's a matter of one's own thought process - if I were tamil, I would definitely try to learn hindi even if I found it hard. Because 95% of India understands it. And I want to connect with them in the language that majority are most comfortable in. You personally don't want to learn then don't learn. There is no enforcement. 

 

4. That is a joke of an argument. 

1. Only 2? I can name 50 Tamils on the spot. Check Bollywood itself, wahin se 20-30 mil jayenge.

 

2. If Centre takes a backseat Tamils will themselves learn Hindi if they feel it will benefit them. Delhi isn't helping here with its over emphasis on Hindi....allow things to spontaneously develop over a period of time. I feel Tamils are feeling insecure/under siege now and some of their political/social leaders are getting mileage out of anti Hindi demonstrations/comments. Ordinary Tamils have enough intelligence to do what is beneficial for them..if they feel like learning let them learn else leave it to their wisdom. I think English too will be useful because majority at least will understand it and it is more versatile with global appeal. Regarding treatment of Hindi speakers in TN if things are bad I hope they improve. Again Tamil posters here can shed more light in this regard. 

 

4. That was tongue in cheek in response to a patronizing if somewhat arrogant point. You can't call people 'stuck up' just because they disagree vehemently with you...you have to put yourself in their shoes to understand how they feel. Imagine you are from a state where ancient Sanskrit has survived and has 8 crore speakers, if GOI gives a Hindi push won't you feel bad? Tamils have emotional attachment with their language, more than people from other states and we must respect their feelings. Pretty sure even they will have similar thoughts (stuck up ) w.r.t many of the mannerisms of folk from rest of India.

Edited by Gollum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Only solution: promote every single regional language equally and declare English as national language. We have seen the advantage of English on this forum itself where posters from different backgrounds put forth their views. English is a colonial legacy, luckily it has great relevance in today's world and provides equal footing to all Indians...let all of us move towards adopting this gift bestowed upon us by the British overlords.

Why not have Hindi instead of English as the second language? 

This hatred for Hindi seems fairly illogical to me. Sure promote the regional languages but what's harm in using Hindi as the second language. 

Why does everyone seem to get their lungis in twist everytime someone even mention a word about Hindi? 

I find the attitude highly despicable and reeking of hypocrisy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Gollum said:

@randomGuy India needs to be united on the basis of her dharmic roots. We were never one political unit before the arrival of Brits. But what kept us bound together? It was a combination of dharmic religions, philosophy, temples, monasteries, universities and saints. Great minds traversed the length and breadth of modern day SC and brought people culturally together and even on an intellectual level even though every 400 km either way had a different ruler. That time Bihar was like a foreign country to Tamils, similarly West India was foreign to Bengalis.....they wore different dresses, had different cuisine, temperament, language, customs etc but pilgrimages brought a Tanjore guy to Banaras, likewise from Mathura to Madurai, Nabadwip to Prayag, Gaya to Ajanta/Ellora and from Puri to Kedarnath. We need to stop fighting over caste, language, diet, customs etc and unite all dharmic people under one banner. Else we are doing a great disservice to our origins. Buddha, Mahavir, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Adi Sankara, Basavanna, Andal, Dayanand Saraswati, Kabir, Mirabai, Ramanuja, Guru Nanak, Ramdas, Surdas, Tulsidas, Tukaram etc all spoke different languages in various timelines in our history but united us people in ways no language can ever hope to achieve.

I'm sorry but the first line of your post is completely incorrect and is often used by Pakistanis to undermine India.

 

I suggest you read up a bit more on Indian history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Gollum said:

1. Only 2? I can name 50 Tamils on the spot. Check Bollywood itself, wahin se 20-30 mil jayenge.

 

2. If Centre takes a backseat Tamils will themselves learn Hindi if they feel it will benefit them. Delhi isn't helping here with its over emphasis on Hindi....allow things to spontaneously develop over a period of time. I feel Tamils are feeling insecure/under siege now and some of their political/social leaders are getting mileage out of anti Hindi demonstrations/comments. Ordinary Tamils have enough intelligence to do what is beneficial for them..if they feel like learning let them learn else leave it to their wisdom. I think English too will be useful because majority at least will understand it and it is more versatile with global appeal. Regarding treatment of Hindi speakers in TN if things are bad I hope they improve. Again Tamil posters here can shed more light in this regard. 

 

4. That was tongue in cheek in response to a patronizing if somewhat arrogant point. You can't call people 'stuck up' just because they disagree vehemently with you...you have to put yourself in their shoes to understand how they feel. Imagine you are from a state where ancient Sanskrit has survived and has 8 crore speakers, if GOI gives a Hindi push won't you feel bad? Tamils have emotional attachment with their language, more than people from other states and we must respect their feelings. Pretty sure even they will have similar thoughts (stuck up ) w.r.t many of the mannerisms of folk from rest of India.

1. Yes, only 2. Perhaps fair to say more tamils have tried n succeeded in Bollywood n cricket than keralites relative to population.

 

2.its borne out of a) lack of trust in RoI by TN. b) politics by local parties making it worse, taking it to next level. Please let me know how you feel hindi is tried to be enforced. It's always depends on your choice. Don't learn if you don't want to. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

Why not have Hindi instead of English as the second language? 

This hatred for Hindi seems fairly illogical to me. Sure promote the regional languages but what's harm in using Hindi as the second language. 

Why does everyone seem to get their lungis in twist everytime someone even mention a word about Hindi? 

I find the attitude highly despicable and reeking of hypocrisy.

Because English will ensure equal footing for all and like it or not in the global arena English still rules the roost. Hindi as 2nd language means people from some states will get undue advantage. Bengalis and Marathis won't find Hindi that tough but imagine the plight of a Mallu, Tamil or Naga. You are from Rajsathan so Hindi is natural for you, but why don't you put yourself in the shoes of others? Pretty sure even you would be up in arms if I suggest Telugu or Gondi as 2nd language? Who is being the hypocrite here? Look at the example of our western neighbour....linguistic chauvinism will get us nowhere. And there's a difference between hating Hindi and being cautious.

20 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

I'm sorry but the first line of your post is completely incorrect and is often used by Pakistanis to undermine India.

 

I suggest you read up a bit more on Indian history.

When did Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Manipur, Nagaland, Mizoram etc share the same empire as rest of India before British rule? I am not claiming to be an expert in history but can't seem to figure out when. The contours of the Indian SC today that we see are all courtesy the British rulers. There are many areas in N.E that don't identify themselves with us and hence we have insurgency there.

Edited by Gollum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

1. Yes, only 2. Perhaps fair to say more tamils have tried n succeeded in Bollywood n cricket than keralites relative to population.

 

2.its borne out of a) lack of trust in RoI by TN. b) politics by local parties making it worse, taking it to next level. Please let me know how you feel hindi is tried to be enforced. It's always depends on your choice. Don't learn if you don't want to. 

Simple example any competitive exam paper will have the Hindi translation of English questions on the adjacent page. Sometimes if the wordings in English are confusing one can check the Hindi translation and get a clearer idea, I can personally vouch for that because I have done that a couple of times. Now a Tamil will be at a disadvantage in such a situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Simple example any competitive exam paper will have the Hindi translation of English questions on the adjacent page. Sometimes if the wordings in English are confusing one can check the Hindi translation and get a clearer idea, I can personally vouch for that because I have done that a couple of times. Now a Tamil will be at a disadvantage in such a situation.

1. When there is difference in English and hindi meanings in question paper, English version is considered final. 

2. Many students study all subjects in hindi medium till 12th class. Hence the Hindi version. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Gollum said:

Because English will ensure equal footing for all and like it or not in the global arena English still rules the roost. Also Hindi as 2nd language means people from some states will get undue advantage. Bengalis and Marathis won't find Hindi that tough but imagine the plight of a Mallu, Tamil or Naga. You are from Rajsathan so Hindi is natural for you, but why don't you put yourself in the shoes of others? Pretty sure even you would be up in arms if I suggest Telugu or Gondi as 2nd language? Who is being the hypocrite here? Look at the example of our western neighbour....linguistic chauvinism will get us nowhere. And there's a difference between hating Hindi and being cautious.

 How will English ensure equal footing for all when most North Indian Bemaru state people can barely speak a word of the language? 

And what unfair advantage are you talking about lol? I haven't suggested removing the regional languages out of the equation. Infact I have argued for their preservation and promotion. What I want is to have Hindi as a second language in place of English which seems quite fair imo and also helps extending our cultural influence around the world.

English is a relic of colonial era and ideally should have no place in our society. I'm not calling for an outright ban on the language which would be silly considering it's global importance but why give it an undue importance when we have our very own Indigenous language as a perfect replacement understood by most of the people and which could help us spread our cultural soft power around the world. 

This love for English is both irrational and unreasonable.

Linguistic Chauvinism? Now you are just putting words in my mouth.

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

When did Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Manipur, Nagaland, Mizoram etc share the same empire as rest of India before British rule? I am not claiming to be an expert in history but can't seem to figure out when. The contours of the Indian SC today that we see are all courtesy the British rulers. There are many areas in N.E that don't identify themselves with us and hence we have insurgency there.

Ashoka's empire stretched from Afghanistan in the west to almost whole NE in the east. We did have parts of Tamilnadu and Kerala out of it but that can be safely ignored considering we are talking about a kingdom the size of more than present day Indian Subcontinent.

 

And this argument about NE states not identifying with us is fallacious one since there are different reasons for the insurgency in different states.

Many Kashmiri Muslims do not identity with rest of the Indians either(you would be surprised to hear about the racist tendencies they exhibit towards mainland Indians) but suggesting that Kashmiris historically never had anything in common with Indians would be laughably wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1.3 billion india

.21 billion pakistan 

.15 billion Bangladeshi

Let's say 0.09 billion Nepali Afghan n overseas subcontiners

Total = 1.75 billion out of 7 billion = 25% = 1 in every 4 people of this world knows hindi 

 

^and since relatively larger percentage of these are younger, under 30 people, if you project it 10 years hence... 

..... Maybe 1 in every 3 people of the world will know hindi. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gollum said:

 

4. This needs to be answered by Tamil posters here: what language do most Tamil Muslims converse in? I have seen Mallu Muslims converse in Malayalam (not Urdu) but never met a Tamil Muslim all my life. This will throw more light on the psyche of Tamils...if indeed people across ethnicities, religions and backgrounds use only Tamil there is something we are missing. I really admire thws in India, pretty sure 95% of India has presence of these creatures. OTOH peacock is so rare, never seen one in the wild. So here's an idea let us make crow our national bird in place of peacock because most Indians are familiar with it. 

There are both Tamil and Urdu speaking muslims. However, most identify themselves as Tamils rather than Muslims, at least in the current generation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, randomGuy said:

1. Yes, only 2. Perhaps fair to say more tamils have tried n succeeded in Bollywood n cricket than keralites relative to population.

 

2.its borne out of a) lack of trust in RoI by TN. b) politics by local parties making it worse, taking it to next level. Please let me know how you feel hindi is tried to be enforced. It's always depends on your choice. Don't learn if you don't want to. 

That doesn't seem to be the motive of the center, as seen in the OP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After all the acrimony near the time of independence, "leaders" should've gotten creative and pushed for a national script instead of a national language (especially after they dropped the ball and didn't take Ambedkar's advice to adopt Sanskrit as a national language, which also had support from "the South" as well by the way). Needless to say, "leaders" of that era gave themselves Bharat Ratnas for accomplishing nothing and kicking problems down the curb for others in the future to deal with. 

 

A suitable national script would've been Brahmi, which many languages were written in before.  It could have been easily included in textbooks, you learn your mother tongue in both Brahmi and state-script and then you are good to go. 

 

Schools could've been filled with textbooks to learn all the different languages of India, through the Brahmi script!

 

Anyone who knows the Roman alphabet,(ABCD) has a much easier time to learn other languages using the same script.  

Edited by Tibarn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are both Tamil and Urdu speaking muslims. However, most identify themselves as Tamils rather than Muslims, at least in the current generation.
I have a friend who is from Coimbatore. He is a Muslim and speaks weird Urdu when he calls back home. It's like Dhakkani with heavy Tamil accent. But when he speaks hindi, it's more normal. I then realized that's just how Urdu is spoken there.

Yeah, like every tamilian he takes great pride in being one.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, G_B_ said:

yes cause kumarasamy is the answer to karnataka's problems.

 

PS Several RSS heads have hailed from northern karnataka who vouched for hindi. The northern regions of Karnataka and Telangana share similar cultural values with Maharashtra than the south. Prime Minister Rao for eg spoke fluent Marathi. Draw a 500km circle around Nagpur. Hindi is an important link language between several languages from Marathi to Telegu.

 

 

 

RSs? Are you kidding me with this?. My point is language learning outside of state language should be up to individual.the center has no right to dictate 1 language over others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2018 at 8:01 PM, Tibarn said:

After all the acrimony near the time of independence, "leaders" should've gotten creative and pushed for a national script instead of a national language (especially after they dropped the ball and didn't take Ambedkar's advice to adopt Sanskrit as a national language, which also had support from "the South" as well by the way). Needless to say, "leaders" of that era gave themselves Bharat Ratnas for accomplishing nothing and kicking problems down the curb for others in the future to deal with. 

 

A suitable national script would've been Brahmi, which many languages were written in before.  It could have been easily included in textbooks, you learn your mother tongue in both Brahmi and state-script and then you are good to go. 

 

Schools could've been filled with textbooks to learn all the different languages of India, through the Brahmi script!

 

Anyone who knows the Roman alphabet,(ABCD) has a much easier time to learn other languages using the same script.  

Sounds like a novel idea.  

Does the Brahmi script have letters to incorporate sounds of all Indian languages, given that it is an older script?

For instance the sound of 'ळ' is present in the Marathi language , kind of like an L sound with the tongue rolled up to the hard palate, doesn't exist in the other Indo-Aryan languages.

There are many such sounds/ syllables that exist exclusively in the Dravidian languages only. 

What does one do in such cases?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Sounds like a novel idea.  

Does the Brahmi script have letters to incorporate sounds of all Indian languages, given that it is an older script?

For instance the sound of 'ळ' is present in the Marathi language , kind of like an L sound with the tongue rolled up to the hard palate, doesn't exist in the other Indo-Aryan languages.

There are many such sounds/ syllables that exist exclusively in the Dravidian languages only. 

What does one do in such cases?

It's not exactly my idea, as SCB wanted to convert all Indian languages into Roman script( along with making Hindi the national language). I just think that choosing a pan Indian national script would be a safer way to avoid the language politics.

 

There were regional variants of the script ie Tamil-Brahmi probably with some different sounds/letters, but I am guessing that there are some sounds that it didn't have.

 

For those, I suppose, one can insert the letter/sound ('ळ') from the other language directly into the new Indian Standard Brahmi script. Since the idea is to teach students the script from a young age at school, their brains would still be able to learn the 'ळ' sound and they would be able to make the sound, should they ever decide to learn to speak Marathi. If they never learn Marathi, they would still be able to make the sound, they just wouldn't ever use it.      

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2018 at 6:00 AM, Stradlater said:

 How will English ensure equal footing for all when most North Indian Bemaru state people can barely speak a word of the language? 

False equivalency. Bimaru states have literacy problem, period. Its not gonna matter which language gets 2nd language status other than Hindi- which favors the North Indian bimaru states the most. 

On 6/25/2018 at 6:00 AM, Stradlater said:

And what unfair advantage are you talking about lol? I haven't suggested removing the regional languages out of the equation. Infact I have argued for their preservation and promotion. What I want is to have Hindi as a second language in place of English which seems quite fair imo and also helps extending our cultural influence around the world.

Nonsense and putting pride before common sense. Kids in India already have zero life being kids. If a second language is to be a focus for children's precious time away from being children, then it makes far more sense to use the global language that automatically gives Indian kids a leg-up in the international world, than jingoistic 'extend our culture' nonsense, which serves far little advantage compared to English. 

On 6/25/2018 at 6:00 AM, Stradlater said:

English is a relic of colonial era and ideally should have no place in our society. I'm not calling for an outright ban on the language which would be silly considering it's global importance but why give it an undue importance when we have our very own Indigenous language as a perfect replacement understood by most of the people and which could help us spread our cultural soft power around the world. 

Nonsense. There never will be a language that will compete with English in global value. Period. Learning English means automatic advantage in interacting with USA, Canada, Britain, Australia and all of Europe, as Europe averages 40-50% comprehension in English. I've been a tourist in Denmark. Known people who went to study in Norway. Thank God for English and these folks having 70-90% of their population speaking English that life was awesome for us there.  English is still the second most common language spoken in Latin America after spanish (even though 90% don't speak it, you are still more likely to find an English speaker in Colombia or Peru after Spanish, over virtually any other language).

 

Relic of the colonial world or not, English literacy serves ANY person in the world infinitely more than any other language. 

On 6/25/2018 at 6:00 AM, Stradlater said:

This love for English is both irrational and unreasonable.

Linguistic Chauvinism? Now you are just putting words in my mouth.

The love for English is completely rational - it is the global lingua franca and serves a person FAR greater global communication ease than Hindi. This i know from being a fluent speaker of both Hindi and English. This is why i recommended every single relative in India to either enroll their kids in English medium schools or pick English as second language over Hindi if they are in Bengali or Marathi medium schools. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

Guest, sign in to access all features.

×