Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
zen

Ind polled as the most dangerous country for women

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, eternalhope said:

Hopefully this will get the discussion back on track. Who cares what the polls say or the UN Says, let us first acknowledge the real issues and try to discuss on what can be done to mitigate and eradicate those.

The OP is used by libtards to trash out the BJP government. That is also an issue at hand here. Of course, nobody is suggesting India is like Denmark/Switzerland.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

The OP is used by libtards to trash out the BJP government. That is also an issue at hand here. Of course, nobody is suggesting India is like Denmark/Switzerland.

Its ok if OP is trashing BJP because they expect better. The political combination that is supported by lib****s is unimaginable. They are the ones who are responsible for this state of affairs in the first place. Irrespective of who did what, it is a good opportunity for BJP to do something tangible in this area. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Not sure of this, even in USA, women can move freely after midnight in Manhattan, but not in bronx/harlem or even Chicago south side. So, can't single out India alone. Those places in USA, even men cannot walk freely past midnight. 

USA is on the list though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

The OP is used by libtards to trash out the BJP government. That is also an issue at hand here. Of course, nobody is suggesting India is like Denmark/Switzerland.

Fear of what libtards would do should not stop us from doing or saying the right thing .... at the end of the day, the goal is to make the region better 

 

I think the how the crimes are now covered by media is putting the issue to the forefront and urging people to bring about a change in the attitude .... Women too have become brave enough to come forward and stand up for themselves 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

The OP is used by libtards to trash out the BJP government. That is also an issue at hand here. Of course, nobody is suggesting India is like Denmark/Switzerland.

Ignore the barbs. Why do you guys see everything thru the BJP prism. 

 

We all know there are real issues. We know the laws in India are more skewed towards the females than males which have been misused in many places where there is awareness and these have to amended in the future, but at the same time a vast majority of people do not have awareness of these laws or access or means to get protection using them. There are so many things we can think of like dowry, illiteracy, female infanticide, sexual abuse and trafficking which happen. The lower sections of the society were anyway always deprived. Now with the western culture becoming fashionable there, you see the women also joining the men in this downward spiral.

 

Unless there is some micro level campaigning at the lowest levels and the society does not realize and react to this impending danger, there is nothing any government can do about it. I think the rat race we are in has made it worse and we have lowered our moral standards. I sometimes joke with my friends that what more than 1000 years of foreign rule could not do, just 70 years of democracy has done to India - broken down the family values and family system which was sustained by the middle class morality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are enough problems with our society and that has to be addressed internally. We don't want these foreign/chrislamocommunist NGOs telling us there are problems. We should tell them to fix their own houses before pointing fingers. There is always some hidden motive behind these NGOs, what good is it to tell us the problems that we already know. They should work or help us on providing solutions/awareness where the government is failing. 

 

Given the utility value of these polls/NGOs is zilch, the only value is to time it to affect elections, which will be used by libtards.

Edited by coffee_rules

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one gives a hoot to these external or internal polls. IMO 70% vote based on their previous party affiliations, daily needs, caste or religion, 10% on the money, liquor and other inducements and of the rest 20%, 10 percent don't even vote while most of the rest are more of less impervious and intelligent enough to understand the hidden motives behind this media tamasha. Maybe less than 1% would take these things seriously and even that number keeps going down every election as awareness grows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, eternalhope said:

Ignore the barbs. Why do you guys see everything thru the BJP prism. 

 

We all know there are real issues. We know the laws in India are more skewed towards the females than males which have been misused in many places where there is awareness and these have to amended in the future, but at the same time a vast majority of people do not have awareness of these laws or access or means to get protection using them. There are so many things we can think of like dowry, illiteracy, female infanticide, sexual abuse and trafficking which happen. The lower sections of the society were anyway always deprived. Now with the western culture becoming fashionable there, you see the women also joining the men in this downward spiral.

 

Unless there is some micro level campaigning at the lowest levels and the society does not realize and react to this impending danger, there is nothing any government can do about it. I think the rat race we are in has made it worse and we have lowered our moral standards. I sometimes joke with my friends that what more than 1000 years of foreign rule could not do, just 70 years of democracy has done to India - broken down the family values and family system which was sustained by the middle class morality.

One of the best posts I've read in this forum. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, rkt.india said:

that's false

India has one of the highest female foeticide incidents in the world. The female child population in the age group of 0-6 years declined from 78.83 million in 2001 to 75.84 million in 2011. During the period 1991-2011, the child sex ratio (0-6 years) declined from 945 to 914

 

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/health/india-witnesses-one-of-the-highest-female-infanticide-incidents-in-the-world-54803

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, eternalhope said:

Ignore the barbs. Why do you guys see everything thru the BJP prism. 

 

We all know there are real issues. We know the laws in India are more skewed towards the females than males which have been misused in many places where there is awareness and these have to amended in the future, but at the same time a vast majority of people do not have awareness of these laws or access or means to get protection using them. There are so many things we can think of like dowry, illiteracy, female infanticide, sexual abuse and trafficking which happen. The lower sections of the society were anyway always deprived. Now with the western culture becoming fashionable there, you see the women also joining the men in this downward spiral.

 

Unless there is some micro level campaigning at the lowest levels and the society does not realize and react to this impending danger, there is nothing any government can do about it. I think the rat race we are in has made it worse and we have lowered our moral standards. I sometimes joke with my friends that what more than 1000 years of foreign rule could not do, just 70 years of democracy has done to India - broken down the family values and family system which was sustained by the middle class morality.

We didn't have a middle class ( as we understand it today-> literate people involved mainly in services and are aspirational) for most of those 1000 years. The middle class is a very recent thing, a product of the British. And the " middle class morality" whose loss you so bemoan are essentially Victorian values mixed with selective Indian ethos. It was a colonial hang over, and its being replaced by more relevant/convenient ideologies.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many women are unmarried in India?

How many men are unmarried in India? 

 

Perhaps something to learn from Chinese situation:

 

(1) China started 1 baby policy. It resulted in less numbers of baby girls.

India is facing double edge problem. If it goes for 1 child policy, then again numbers of baby girls is going to decrease. But if India goes for 2/3 children policy, then it will be huge burden on the resources in the future. 

 

(2) Till 2030, more than a quarter of Chinese men in their 30s will not have married (link).  

 

(3) Now, with far fewer women than men in China, the race to find a suitable partner—and win her over before someone else does—has led some men to go to great lengths to find a wife. They’re spending vast sums on creative, sometimes unsuccessful, measures to win a woman over.

 

I always wondered, why this same thing is not happening in India too? Why it is still the other way around where parents of girls have to spent a lot of money to get her married? 

 

Is this trend going to change in India in near future? Perhaps if Indian women get good education and become more independent financially, then they  also come in position of blackmailing the men (just like in China at moment). 

 

In China, having partnership without marrying also empowered the working class women. But could it ever happen in India too, where religion plays greater role and parents don't allow such partnership, and compel the girls to marry at age of under 25 years?

 

It seems  due to this mentality of Indian society, where parents are forced to marry their daughters so early, they have been blackmailed by the family of men to give dowry. 

 

In modern China, mother of girls are demanding a house and car from the man before he makes a proposal. While in India, mother of boy is demanding a house/flat and car in dowry. 

 

8 hours ago, eternalhope said:

Now with the western culture becoming fashionable there, you see the women also joining the men in this downward spiral.

Could you please elaborate further which Western Cultural Values are making this downward spiral? While I don't see any western value responsible for these evils of dowry and female infanticide etc. 

 

2 hours ago, MechEng said:

I sometimes joke with my friends that what more than 1000 years of foreign rule could not do, just 70 years of democracy has done to India - broken down the family values and family system which was sustained by the middle class morality.

Sorry again. I am still unable to see the connection of Indian Democracy with the evils of dowry and female infanticide etc. 

The tradition of dowry existed long before Indian democracy.

Also girls have been long seen as burden.

 

Are you suggesting that Indian Democracy system destroyed the "Joint Family System" and thus all these evils have started occurring to this reason? 

 

I feel that joint family system is still strong in India, and other family values too where girl has to leave the house of parents and shift in the family of boy.

 

It may be that parents don't have much control over their son who wants to have love marriage instead of arranged marriage  as compared to the past. And also it may be that Bahus of today are not so much obedient to the parents-in-law as they used to be in the past. 

 

===

 

Actually modern women in India are perhaps demanding full breakage of Joint family system where girl has to serve the whole family of boy, while her own parents are only in loss. 

 

Perhaps we should read the post of @beetle once again, where she is describing what modern women of India want. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Alam_dar

 

I also find blaming 'Western Values' for evil and female foeticide very odd.

 

Its a mix of cultural ethos, misplaced sense of ghairat and economics which is more at fault for these evils. 

 

I do remember reading an article that stated that there is a high inverse correlation between crimes against women ( caveat: reported crimes) and female participation at work. This study was for rural India. It was also observed that the richer a rural area, the less likely are women to work there except for in emergencies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, MechEng said:

 

 

11 hours ago, eternalhope said:

We know the laws in India are more skewed towards the females than males which have been misused in many places where there is awareness and these have to amended in the future, but at the same time a vast majority of people do not have awareness of these laws or access or means to get protection using them.

The  laws have to be made in favor of women because social rules very often don't favor women.

 

The strict rules would not have to be made if women were not tortured for dowry with impunity and large number of women were not killed for dowry.

 

It is sad that the rules were misused in large number ...but the law has been changed to make it less draconion.

These cases would also have been lesser if divorces were easier and there were stricter rules for child support and equitable distribution of wealth acquired during the length of the marriage.

11 hours ago, eternalhope said:

I think the rat race we are in has made it worse and we have lowered our moral standards. I sometimes joke with my friends that what more than 1000 years of foreign rule could not do, just 70 years of democracy has done to India - broken down the family values and family system which was sustained by the middle class morality

What lowering of moral standards?

In what sense?

Why is the change bad?

For whom is this change bad?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

(3) Now, with far fewer women than men in China, the race to find a suitable partner—and win her over before someone else does—has led some men to go to great lengths to find a wife. They’re spending vast sums on creative, sometimes unsuccessful, measures to win a woman over.

Unfortunately in India things are different.

In states like Haryana and Rajasthan where there are far less women, some men are buying women from poorer states and often treating them like bought cattle...sometimes even sharing them .

I wonder if we are more barbaric a society compared to china.

3 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

In China, having partnership without marrying also empowered the working class women. But could it ever happen in India too, where religion plays greater role and parents don't allow such partnership, and compel the girls to marry at age of under 25 years?

Even in S korea...women are lesser inclined to marry now. They have a similar patriarchal society and women have shunned it in great numbers .

The govt recognised partnership without marriage and probably since it has happened in such large numbers , there seems to be social acceptance.

 

The laws in India recognizes live in partnerships and the children born out of these. There is no legal taboo but socially it is a big taboo. 

 

With more and more women becoming independent , a section of women in future may reject the bindings of marriage and the patriarchal baggage that comes with it.

When the pros of staying unmarried grow bigger than the cons of the the patriarchal baggage....then we will see that happening in India too.

 

We are a free democratic country.

Our laws are fairly liberal ( barring a few) .

If things don't change socially...then we will see this change in future.

 

Edited by beetle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are so many issues with this report. Firstly, they don't take the population of the country in aspect to the crimes. That's a fundamental statistical failure. Then, from a political point of view, why is that this woman's safety only matters when BJP is in power? Are they saying that it was better in past? Then, traditional BJP strongholds like Gujarat are one of the better places for women whereas traditional secular government places like UP, Haryana have the biggest issues. Yet, there has been progress and much improvement, take Haryana for example, the sex ratio has increased.  This safety issue is a big and old issue and we need work together to fix it.

 

And India needs to work on the perception battle, many big countries have their own people in western propaganda whereas we have people with Indian ethnicity yet hate this country as our representative worldwide. It's a big issue.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, someone said:

There are so many issues with this report. Firstly, they don't take the population of the country in aspect to the crimes. That's a fundamental statistical failure. Then, from a political point of view, why is that this woman's safety only matters when BJP is in power? Are they saying that it was better in past? Then, traditional BJP strongholds like Gujarat are one of the better places for women whereas traditional secular government places like UP, Haryana have the biggest issues. Yet, there has been progress and much improvement, take Haryana for example, the sex ratio has increased.  This safety issue is a big and old issue and we need work together to fix it.

 

And India needs to work on the perception battle, many big countries have their own people in western propaganda whereas we have people with Indian ethnicity yet hate this country as our representative worldwide. It's a big issue.

 

It has been done before as well, India was ranked 4th last time and Modi had shown concerns for women , a veiled criticism on the then government. RaGa, this time uses it to diss Modi. 

 

 

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-this-old-tweet-by-pm-modi-on-women-s-safety-in-india-based-on-a-reuters-poll-hasn-t-aged-well-2629962

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is good to see the girls coming up with great points.

 

First let me clarify that I am not saying democracy is the cause of female infanticide, dowry and other social evils. I am saying these are issues which exist and have to be eradicated and let us have a discussion on practical measures which would get us there than some idealist ones. Don't mix them up.

 

I am personally against quotas which favor only a section or draconian laws which can be misused. But as I said before, for the overall good and to get the sections(which include women) which are still behind to an equivalent and competitive position, we will need them for some time. I am scared though in India this 'some time' can be forever. It is not about feminism or male chauvinism, it is more about humanism. There are reservations for jobs and even bus seats for Women in India. Is anyone opposing them saying why special treatment to them though they claim they are equal in all respects? 

 

If you think there is no middle class pre-independence, I don't agree. Though we haven't been born then we know from our parents and grandparents that a middle class existed.  I have seen some males kept away from the family for drinking and gambling during our childhood days. Adultery was scorned and I don't think it is as much a taboo these days. Most of the vices were mostly by men before and the women are catching up there and everyone has some bloody excuse citing expectations and necessities. I blame it on lowering of moral standards, as the necessities have gone up due to crass commercialism. No one is happy with what they have they but want more and more, a person with a tv wants a big screen tv and then a even bigger screen one. There is also a kind of social pressure which raises expectations and many bow down to this and compromise on their morals. For me the rich set the standard, the middle class aspire to get there and be accepted and the lower class just blindly follows. 

 

From time immemorial immoral men used inducements and coercion to get women but few fell for it. Now the number has increased on both the sides.

 

When I say the family system is breaking down, my comment is not about Joint family system. Accept it  or not Adultery has been on the rise for both men and women and now someone commented on divorce or livein relationship, it is the kids who suffer due to this. As long as they don't have them, it becomes easier to separate. In an ideal state, I don't believe in alimony and child support, but for this to happen the women have to become financially independent and as a society we all have to support them to achieve this. I don't believe in females getting the children too in case of divorce. Anyway when all these things are taken for granted what standards are we setting up for the kids going forward. When you talk to people in the west, they are in awe and admiration of the Indian family system. I think it was Sobers, who said once, that Indians are the most friendly people you will get but the fiercest when you mess with their families.

 

Regarding democracy ruining the moral standards - with all the freebies the people expect from the govt and all the govts competing in giving out doles to get re-elected, we are making people lazy and after sometime incapable of working looking for easy money, then all the shortcuts to keep going come into play.

 

I have thrown up some points, which might need more explanation but I guess good enough to get started or continue on a healthy discussion. It is hard typing in these lengthy posts :cantstop:, I might not get back to your replies soon but will when time permits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, eternalhope said:

. Accept it  or not Adultery has been on the rise for both men and women 

In a mostly heterosexual society..

It takes a man and a woman to stray.

It always did .

 

It is naive to say adultery and the other socially unacceptable vices did not occur earlier.It has been happening forever.

These days with a phone and a camera in every hand, it is just more easier to get caught.

 

Besides ...when men and women work together, there are more chances of people straying.

That being said, if you look at the papers, there are more housewives involved in adultery cases that come in the news because of the violent ends.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for women also indulging in vices that were earlier associated with men....it is more because of opportunities opening up for them too.Earlier there were no opportunities.

 

Working women face the same pressures as men( and more) and some find same ways to get over  the pressure as men.

 

Band pinjare mein chidiya kya udegi.

Lack of opportunity is not a virtue.:p:

 

 Besides, it is far easier to succumb to vices than to resist for all humans .

Women are no exception.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MechEng said:

I'm a traditionalist at heart. What I fear the most is that if society completely loses it's traditional values, then the things we enjoy today or take for granted will be luxuries in future. Maa ke haath ka khana will be restricted to history books.

Necessity is the  mother of invention. 

My father have been to Kitchen perhaps 10-15 times after his marriage (and that too for small tasks like boiling milk, or making food warm and this does not counts in cooking). 

 

But I am almost able to cook as good as modern day wives (thanks to youtube for thousands of recipes), I cleans  the house (which is equal to Jharoo and Taki of my mother's time), washing clothes (although using washing machine, but afterwards hanging them and then folding them and packing them is same as old days and my father never did it). 

 

Now don't offer me a marriage proposal for all these qualities. I am a straight. :phehe:

 

===

 

In West, mothers and family do take a lot of care of small children. But with time, this care becomes less and less and children become totally independent at age of 18. 

 

In Pakistan, my father is still a child in some sense and my mother still needs to take care of him. :facepalm: He could not take care of himself. 

Edited by Alam_dar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MechEng said:

I'm a traditionalist at heart. What I fear the most is that if society completely loses it's traditional values, then the things we enjoy today or take for granted will be luxuries in future. Maa ke haath ka khana will be restricted to history books.

It will be referred to as sexism from the past. More recent history will have reference of food cooked by humans => food cooked by robots => take a chill pill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, eternalhope said:

It is good to see the girls coming up with great points.

 

First let me clarify that I am not saying democracy is the cause of female infanticide, dowry and other social evils. I am saying these are issues which exist and have to be eradicated and let us have a discussion on practical measures which would get us there than some idealist ones. Don't mix them up.

 

I am personally against quotas which favor only a section or draconian laws which can be misused. But as I said before, for the overall good and to get the sections(which include women) which are still behind to an equivalent and competitive position, we will need them for some time. I am scared though in India this 'some time' can be forever. It is not about feminism or male chauvinism, it is more about humanism. There are reservations for jobs and even bus seats for Women in India. Is anyone opposing them saying why special treatment to them though they claim they are equal in all respects? 

 

If you think there is no middle class pre-independence, I don't agree. Though we haven't been born then we know from our parents and grandparents that a middle class existed.  I have seen some males kept away from the family for drinking and gambling during our childhood days. Adultery was scorned and I don't think it is as much a taboo these days. Most of the vices were mostly by men before and the women are catching up there and everyone has some bloody excuse citing expectations and necessities. I blame it on lowering of moral standards, as the necessities have gone up due to crass commercialism. No one is happy with what they have they but want more and more, a person with a tv wants a big screen tv and then a even bigger screen one. There is also a kind of social pressure which raises expectations and many bow down to this and compromise on their morals. For me the rich set the standard, the middle class aspire to get there and be accepted and the lower class just blindly follows. 

 

From time immemorial immoral men used inducements and coercion to get women but few fell for it. Now the number has increased on both the sides.

 

When I say the family system is breaking down, my comment is not about Joint family system. Accept it  or not Adultery has been on the rise for both men and women and now someone commented on divorce or livein relationship, it is the kids who suffer due to this. As long as they don't have them, it becomes easier to separate. In an ideal state, I don't believe in alimony and child support, but for this to happen the women have to become financially independent and as a society we all have to support them to achieve this. I don't believe in females getting the children too in case of divorce. Anyway when all these things are taken for granted what standards are we setting up for the kids going forward. When you talk to people in the west, they are in awe and admiration of the Indian family system. I think it was Sobers, who said once, that Indians are the most friendly people you will get but the fiercest when you mess with their families.

 

Regarding democracy ruining the moral standards - with all the freebies the people expect from the govt and all the govts competing in giving out doles to get re-elected, we are making people lazy and after sometime incapable of working looking for easy money, then all the shortcuts to keep going come into play.

 

I have thrown up some points, which might need more explanation but I guess good enough to get started or continue on a healthy discussion. It is hard typing in these lengthy posts :cantstop:, I might not get back to your replies soon but will when time permits.

 

I don't count cases of mutual consent as vices today. 

In past, our societies compelled many people to become vices due to the frustration. The phenomenon of sex based segregation in the past was unnatural and not good for the psycho of the society. 

 

(In Pakistan, Pashtoons and Mullahs in the madaris have been compelled to rape the young children. So, not good for the poor young children. Although India didn't have this problem.)

 

Today children suffer more due to the separation. But in the past, it was mostly the woman that suffered the most due to the stupid husband and she was not able to leave him due to the social pressure. There was a lot of tension in such families, and it was also not good for the children. I believe in a lot of such cases (where tensions are high in the home), separation is also good and positive for the children.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/i-speak-so-that-others-wont-suffer-alone/articleshow/64811543.cms

 

This is why our country is so unsafe for women.

 

When a rape victim has to be worried about her family 's reaction and what they have to go through.

 

When a rape victim has little faith in the police because even they are often powerless against the powerful.....and sometimes corrupt.

 

When sexual assaulters within the family circle get protection by the family.

 

When victim is blamed for sexusl assault .

Getting sexually assaulted in a country like India is not just a physical and mental assault....it is often a never ending social assault.

 

God knows how many such victims never open their mouths because they are scared of the docial assault that follows.

 

 

 

Edited by beetle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to add here that most Indian feminists are usually the ones who don't need any kind of empowerment. They are all from financially well off backgrounds and are the ones with princess syndrome. You will rarely see the real ones who need empowerment because they offer constructive solutions to the problems instead of supporitng a propaganda.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/29/2018 at 4:14 AM, MechEng said:

I'm a traditionalist at heart. What I fear the most is that if society completely loses it's traditional values, then the things we enjoy today or take for granted will be luxuries in future. Maa ke haath ka khana will be restricted to history books.

Mama will still make food just that papa will do too. I know your intentions are good and at personal level.  But traditions are most quoted in misogynistic practices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Hydra said:

Italian Banker raped by tour guide in Mumbai

 

https://www.ndtv.com/mumbai-news/italian-banker-allegedly-raped-by-tour-guide-in-a-car-in-mumbai-1876119?pfrom=home-topscroll

 

But India is safe for women lol.

 

 

Have a handle on context. In Syria a whole community of women were made into sex slaves millions of them  is that country safer than India lol. No one here is claiming India does not have a problem but your agenda here Is very visible so no thanks for your fake concern. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/28/2018 at 4:38 PM, someone said:

There are so many issues with this report. Firstly, they don't take the population of the country in aspect to the crimes. That's a fundamental statistical failure. Then, from a political point of view, why is that this woman's safety only matters when BJP is in power? Are they saying that it was better in past? Then, traditional BJP strongholds like Gujarat are one of the better places for women whereas traditional secular government places like UP, Haryana have the biggest issues. Yet, there has been progress and much improvement, take Haryana for example, the sex ratio has increased.  This safety issue is a big and old issue and we need work together to fix it.

 

And India needs to work on the perception battle, many big countries have their own people in western propaganda whereas we have people with Indian ethnicity yet hate this country as our representative worldwide. It's a big issue.

 

I do not understand why you need to make this into a BJP vs a Congress issue?

 

And what makes you claim that women's safety mattered only when the BJP is in power?

When the spontaneous and media outrage re: the Nirbhaya case happened, the Congress was in power. Both in the state and the centre. The Congress party got a lot of bad press for it. And rightly so. And the opposition did gain from the tragedy.

 

Also, comparing Gujarat to Haryana/ UP to show the party that you support in good light is being very disingenuous.  An apt comparison would be Gujarat under the BJP vs Gujarat under the Congress. Same thing for Haryana. That can show you change, if any.

 

Bottom line is that India is unsafe for women. Obviously it isn't the most unsafe nation, but the focus isn't the ranking but to make our ( and foreign) women feel secure. The best way to win the perception battle is to make the nation a safer place. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

I do not understand why you need to make this into a BJP vs a Congress issue?And what makes you claim that women's safety mattered only when the BJP is in power?

Also, comparing Gujarat to Haryana/ UP to show the party that you support in good light is being very disingenuous.  An apt comparison would be Gujarat under the BJP vs Gujarat under the Congress. Same thing for Haryana. That can show you change, if any.

I aren't the one making it a political issue. I am just answering those who think that BJP started this problem. It's a existing problem and we need to work all together to fix it. On comparison , I have already mentioned like Haryana is better sex ratio under new government than old government. So the Beti Bachao, Beti Padhao has had some success.

 

Bottom line is that India is unsafe for women. Obviously it isn't the most unsafe nation, but the focus isn't the ranking but to make our ( and foreign) women feel secure. The best way to win the perception battle is to make the nation a safer place.

 

We aren't the most unsafe nation, and that has to be dispelled vigorously. Next, just like India is a poor place, India is unsafe for women maybe correct. But we don't get anything if we take this image of our country to the world. We must defeat this mindset, and perception. Also,  there are many Western countries with higher crime rates against women, so we have to the the population into consideration.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Vilander said:

Mama will still make food just that papa will do too. I know your intentions are good and at personal level.  But traditions are most quoted in misogynistic practices.

You're not looking at the bigger picture, I have seen the African American community from a close view and I even have a good African American friend, I have seen what damage has feminism done to that community with single mother culture.

 

Aise misogynistic word ratta maar ke aur bolne se problems solve nahin hoga. Sacrifice your tradition and then suffer the karma forever.

Edited by MechEng

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Vilander said:

Mama will still make food just that papa will do too. I know your intentions are good and at personal level.  But traditions are most quoted in misogynistic practices.

Sure as long as Mama generates  income equivalent to Papa and isnt some sit at house freeloader housewife .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MechEng said:

You're not looking at the bigger picture, I have seen the African American community from a close view and I even have a good African American friend, I have seen what damage has feminism done to that community with single mother culture.

 

Aise misogynistic word ratta maar ke aur bolne se problems solve nahin hoga. Sacrifice your tradition and then suffer the karma forever.

You can't apply the african american situation everywhere.

 

Besides it is very simple.

Educated working women are not going to settle for doing it all .They are only human .If they get a paycheck and share the financial responsibilty with the man, then the man will have to help out at home.

 

If guys want status quo...they can always marry less educated girls who do not want to do it all.

 

Problem is with guys who want it all.

A highly educated working woman to share the financial pressure and then they expect her to take care of home like their mother without complaining.

 Such guys are going to be disillusioned with their life .

 

Most working women even now go home and cook for their family .Some are lucky enough to have option of getting someone to pay to cook.

The equality of home work is still a dream for most.

Poor women wake up at unearthly hrs to cook and pack food and family members to work and school. Deal with a full day at work and then come back home to cook the family dinner.That is one crap life.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, beetle said:

If guys want status quo...they can always marry less educated girls who do not want to do it all.

 

I have seen many educated men married to gawar jobless women ,but hardly ever seen the opposite.


Guys dont look for education and salary in girls ,that's what girls search for in guys .Even when the woman is  well educated and have a good job and salary they wont marry someone who is lesser off than them because of their freeloading tendencies.They want it as an insurance for their future .

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

I have seen many educated men married to gawar jobless women ,but hardly ever seen the opposite.


Guys dont look for education and salary in girls ,that's what girls search for in guys .Even when the woman is  well educated and have a good job and salary they wont marry someone who is lesser off than them because of their freeloading tendencies.They want it as an insurance for their future .

 

Women have kids. They nurse kids. They are usually the primary caretakers of the kids. 

They often have to take a break for this .

They look for a stable partner who will be able to help in raising the family.

 

As women get higher paying jobs and become primary bread earner, they will prefer to settle for a lesser earning partner who is willing to be primary caretaker.

 

As more and more men start taking part in caregiving and taking care of home, women will trust their partners more with raising kids and will be more willing to be primary bread winner.

 

One person cannot do both roles of being primary bread winner and primary caretaker.

 

I have seen many educated men married to gawar jobless women ,but hardly ever seen the opposite.

 

The guys who have home makers as wives have certain advantages too.They usually don't have to worry about home and kids and can devote more time to their jobs.

 

Guys dont look for education and salary in girls

You have to be kidding when saying guys and their families don't look for working women. These days it is almost impossible for girls to get a good match if she is not working with a good paycheck....specially in middle and upper middle class families.

 

 

.Even when the woman is  well educated and have a good job and salary they wont marry someone who is lesser off than them because of their freeloading tendencies.

 

I have seen quite a few women ( even in my family...younger cousins) where the girl is in a better paying or more stable job. Unfortunately it has not translated to their husband helping out more  at home.

 

What exactly is freeloading?

Do you feel doing house work and taking care of home and family is free loading ?

My mom , my grand mothers have never worked outside home. Were they freeloading.

 

In my opinion freeloading is ...expecting the wife to take care of home, family, bring home a decent pay check , bear children , nurse them , take care of them, take care of the husbands parents in old age . 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by beetle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/2/2018 at 2:09 AM, MechEng said:

You're not looking at the bigger picture, I have seen the African American community from a close view and I even have a good African American friend, I have seen what damage has feminism done to that community with single mother culture.

 

Aise misogynistic word ratta maar ke aur bolne se problems solve nahin hoga. Sacrifice your tradition and then suffer the karma forever.

There is no wrong in traditional Indian family system with mom being housewife and dad making money, but this tradition should not be the reason to prevent a woman from having an independent life. That is where the line is. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Vilander said:

There is no wrong in traditional Indian family system with mom being housewife and dad making money, but this tradition should not be the reason to prevent a woman from having an independent life. That is where the line is. 

In West too traditional role of woman is still in the house, but West is flexible and even roles are changed according to the situation. 

If wife is earning good, then she is going to work while husband is taking care of the babies and kids and household. 

 

So, nothing is considered bad socially and people are free to take best decisions according to their situations. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Vilander said:

There is no wrong in traditional Indian family system with mom being housewife and dad making money, but this tradition should not be the reason to prevent a woman from having an independent life. That is where the line is. 

This.

Ours is a traditional Indian household right now.

I take care of home and family completely.

Husband gets the bread home .

No one should have to do it all.

If both work outside home, then both should help each other at home.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Vilander said:

There is no wrong in traditional Indian family system with mom being housewife and dad making money, but this tradition should not be the reason to prevent a woman from having an independent life. That is where the line is. 

Yes, but where did I deny that people should be allowed independence? 

Edited by MechEng

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/29/2018 at 4:14 PM, MechEng said:

I'm a traditionalist at heart. What I fear the most is that if society completely loses it's traditional values, then the things we enjoy today or take for granted will be luxuries in future. Maa ke haath ka khana will be restricted to history books.

Yes, west are having their own major problems, and conflicts.  Many are questioning the marriage institution itself. So feminism is fine, but it should not be just following the western ideas. Many Asian countries including India have such traditional values and it's the right thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People here are confusing lack of rights with safety. 

Take Saudi vs India - ofcourse women have far less rights in Saudi than in India. However, safety is about unexpected violence - women are far less likely to be randomly raped and dumped in a nullah in Saudi Arabia than in India. A country can have far more rights than another, but be less safe than its counterpart at the same time. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/4/2018 at 8:47 AM, beetle said:

This.

Ours is a traditional Indian household right now.

I take care of home and family completely.

Husband gets the bread home .

No one should have to do it all.

If both work outside home, then both should help each other at home.

 

 


I prefer the model where we both work and we both do household stuff. It keeps the dynamics even. The big problem with Indian system is, too often (in majority of the cases), I've seen the husband turn into a domineering control freak, using the 'my money, my rules, b!tch' mentality and too often the housewife falls prey to the khusur-phusur of personal dirt on everyone in the family/neighborhood, living the 'idle mind is a devil's workshop' axiom. 


I have also noticed that women who work are far more confident in themselves than women who don't (its not a woman thing btw, its a human thing- obviously being independent financially leads a positive feedback system in the mind to higher self esteem) and are easier going. 

However, in the 'working family' model in India, India is at the toxic '1980s western world' stage, where I have also rarely seen a working Indian household that treats the wife as a normal human being, instead of Wonder-woman. Many 'progressive Indian couples' who come to the west, i've seen has the guy still thinking along patriarchial lines of 'mans work vs womans work' and refuse to do household chores beyond the bare minimum. 

 

So the wife now is in charge of making lunches and sending kids to school, then go to work, then come home and cook, clean and put children to bed. Because 'its wife's duty to cook, wife's duty to clean, wife's duty to deal with children' mentality amongst us Indian guys. 

 

So the woman doesn't get to rest from 6am till 9pm and then the guy goes 'aah ! finally, she is all done, lets have sex, coz now its ME time for the wife'....and then wonders why the wife is giving him the cold shoulder or has 'a headache'. 

 

People have to remember, marriage is a partnership of two human beings. The prime objective is to love each other and loving each other means helping each other over anything one can be helpful over. 

 

But Indian guys don't have this mentality, even the most liberal ones i've encountered. They see the whole cooking, putting the baby to sleep, changing diapers as all 'demeaning for men'. 

Notice how months or maybe over a year ago i made a funny remark about how bloody hard it is for me to fold my wife's laundry when its my turn to do laundry and even now, plenty of the guys here end conversation with a 'go fold your wife's laundry' type chauvinistic comments. 

 

For Indian family to survive in the modern world without having western levels of divorce, its critical for the woman to realize that holding a job is a good thing for the marriage (not financially but emotionally) and for the man to realize that splitting chores 50-50 is good for the marriage.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/29/2018 at 1:14 AM, MechEng said:

I'm a traditionalist at heart. What I fear the most is that if society completely loses it's traditional values, then the things we enjoy today or take for granted will be luxuries in future. Maa ke haath ka khana will be restricted to history books.

Traditions 'asmaan se tapak ke nahi ayi'...traditions are invented....Social systems are ultimately driven by necessities and technologies at hand, nothing more. In the last 500 years, the rate of evolution of technology has been greater than the previous 100,000 years put together. Hence 'traditions' cannot keep pace with rate of technological evolution and are dying out. 


Our traditions all stem from farming culture. Go tell a nomadic culture like the Mongols that women cannot hunt or ride a horse and should stay inside their tents only, they will laugh at you as a moron. Because their traditions are not due to farming culture's evolution.

 

Traditions are there to serve a purpose - to lubricate the social system that has arisen. But once technology makes a certain social system redundant, its time to chuck that tradition in the dustbin- just like our ancestors chucked the traditions of hunter-gatherer ancestors of theirs in the dustbin when they adopted farming, so too should we as we are leaving that world behind.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Traditions 'asmaan se tapak ke nahi ayi'...traditions are invented....Social systems are ultimately driven by necessities and technologies at hand, nothing more. In the last 500 years, the rate of evolution of technology has been greater than the previous 100,000 years put together. Hence 'traditions' cannot keep pace with rate of technological evolution and are dying out. 


Our traditions all stem from farming culture. Go tell a nomadic culture like the Mongols that women cannot hunt or ride a horse and should stay inside their tents only, they will laugh at you as a moron. Because their traditions are not due to farming culture's evolution.

 

Traditions are there to serve a purpose - to lubricate the social system that has arisen. But once technology makes a certain social system redundant, its time to chuck that tradition in the dustbin- just like our ancestors chucked the traditions of hunter-gatherer ancestors of theirs in the dustbin when they adopted farming, so too should we as we are leaving that world behind.

 

Totally agree. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/4/2018 at 2:23 PM, MechEng said:

Yes, but where did I deny that people should be allowed independence? 

"I'm a traditionalist at heart. What I fear the most is that if society completely loses it's traditional values, then the things we enjoy today or take for granted will be luxuries in future. Maa ke haath ka khana will be restricted to history books."

 

I was referring to this post of yours.  How would a mom stop cooking comfort food because she has a job may be she would but then may be the dad would do that role? that is improbable that both won't in an otherwise normal family right as an extension the underlying principle is that traditions should not be basis for limiting a woman's freedom.  Meaning there might be more instances of papa ke haath ka khana as a result but so be it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

Guest, sign in to access all features.

×