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Ind polled as the most dangerous country for women


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8 hours ago, eternalhope said:

Ignore the barbs. Why do you guys see everything thru the BJP prism. 

 

We all know there are real issues. We know the laws in India are more skewed towards the females than males which have been misused in many places where there is awareness and these have to amended in the future, but at the same time a vast majority of people do not have awareness of these laws or access or means to get protection using them. There are so many things we can think of like dowry, illiteracy, female infanticide, sexual abuse and trafficking which happen. The lower sections of the society were anyway always deprived. Now with the western culture becoming fashionable there, you see the women also joining the men in this downward spiral.

 

Unless there is some micro level campaigning at the lowest levels and the society does not realize and react to this impending danger, there is nothing any government can do about it. I think the rat race we are in has made it worse and we have lowered our moral standards. I sometimes joke with my friends that what more than 1000 years of foreign rule could not do, just 70 years of democracy has done to India - broken down the family values and family system which was sustained by the middle class morality.

We didn't have a middle class ( as we understand it today-> literate people involved mainly in services and are aspirational) for most of those 1000 years. The middle class is a very recent thing, a product of the British. And the " middle class morality" whose loss you so bemoan are essentially Victorian values mixed with selective Indian ethos. It was a colonial hang over, and its being replaced by more relevant/convenient ideologies.

 

 

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How many women are unmarried in India?

How many men are unmarried in India? 

 

Perhaps something to learn from Chinese situation:

 

(1) China started 1 baby policy. It resulted in less numbers of baby girls.

India is facing double edge problem. If it goes for 1 child policy, then again numbers of baby girls is going to decrease. But if India goes for 2/3 children policy, then it will be huge burden on the resources in the future. 

 

(2) Till 2030, more than a quarter of Chinese men in their 30s will not have married (link).  

 

(3) Now, with far fewer women than men in China, the race to find a suitable partner—and win her over before someone else does—has led some men to go to great lengths to find a wife. They’re spending vast sums on creative, sometimes unsuccessful, measures to win a woman over.

 

I always wondered, why this same thing is not happening in India too? Why it is still the other way around where parents of girls have to spent a lot of money to get her married? 

 

Is this trend going to change in India in near future? Perhaps if Indian women get good education and become more independent financially, then they  also come in position of blackmailing the men (just like in China at moment). 

 

In China, having partnership without marrying also empowered the working class women. But could it ever happen in India too, where religion plays greater role and parents don't allow such partnership, and compel the girls to marry at age of under 25 years?

 

It seems  due to this mentality of Indian society, where parents are forced to marry their daughters so early, they have been blackmailed by the family of men to give dowry. 

 

In modern China, mother of girls are demanding a house and car from the man before he makes a proposal. While in India, mother of boy is demanding a house/flat and car in dowry. 

 

8 hours ago, eternalhope said:

Now with the western culture becoming fashionable there, you see the women also joining the men in this downward spiral.

Could you please elaborate further which Western Cultural Values are making this downward spiral? While I don't see any western value responsible for these evils of dowry and female infanticide etc. 

 

2 hours ago, MechEng said:

I sometimes joke with my friends that what more than 1000 years of foreign rule could not do, just 70 years of democracy has done to India - broken down the family values and family system which was sustained by the middle class morality.

Sorry again. I am still unable to see the connection of Indian Democracy with the evils of dowry and female infanticide etc. 

The tradition of dowry existed long before Indian democracy.

Also girls have been long seen as burden.

 

Are you suggesting that Indian Democracy system destroyed the "Joint Family System" and thus all these evils have started occurring to this reason? 

 

I feel that joint family system is still strong in India, and other family values too where girl has to leave the house of parents and shift in the family of boy.

 

It may be that parents don't have much control over their son who wants to have love marriage instead of arranged marriage  as compared to the past. And also it may be that Bahus of today are not so much obedient to the parents-in-law as they used to be in the past. 

 

===

 

Actually modern women in India are perhaps demanding full breakage of Joint family system where girl has to serve the whole family of boy, while her own parents are only in loss. 

 

Perhaps we should read the post of @beetle once again, where she is describing what modern women of India want. 

 

 

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@Alam_dar

 

I also find blaming 'Western Values' for evil and female foeticide very odd.

 

Its a mix of cultural ethos, misplaced sense of ghairat and economics which is more at fault for these evils. 

 

I do remember reading an article that stated that there is a high inverse correlation between crimes against women ( caveat: reported crimes) and female participation at work. This study was for rural India. It was also observed that the richer a rural area, the less likely are women to work there except for in emergencies.

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5 hours ago, MechEng said:

 

 

11 hours ago, eternalhope said:

We know the laws in India are more skewed towards the females than males which have been misused in many places where there is awareness and these have to amended in the future, but at the same time a vast majority of people do not have awareness of these laws or access or means to get protection using them.

The  laws have to be made in favor of women because social rules very often don't favor women.

 

The strict rules would not have to be made if women were not tortured for dowry with impunity and large number of women were not killed for dowry.

 

It is sad that the rules were misused in large number ...but the law has been changed to make it less draconion.

These cases would also have been lesser if divorces were easier and there were stricter rules for child support and equitable distribution of wealth acquired during the length of the marriage.

11 hours ago, eternalhope said:

I think the rat race we are in has made it worse and we have lowered our moral standards. I sometimes joke with my friends that what more than 1000 years of foreign rule could not do, just 70 years of democracy has done to India - broken down the family values and family system which was sustained by the middle class morality

What lowering of moral standards?

In what sense?

Why is the change bad?

For whom is this change bad?

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3 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

(3) Now, with far fewer women than men in China, the race to find a suitable partner—and win her over before someone else does—has led some men to go to great lengths to find a wife. They’re spending vast sums on creative, sometimes unsuccessful, measures to win a woman over.

Unfortunately in India things are different.

In states like Haryana and Rajasthan where there are far less women, some men are buying women from poorer states and often treating them like bought cattle...sometimes even sharing them .

I wonder if we are more barbaric a society compared to china.

3 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

In China, having partnership without marrying also empowered the working class women. But could it ever happen in India too, where religion plays greater role and parents don't allow such partnership, and compel the girls to marry at age of under 25 years?

Even in S korea...women are lesser inclined to marry now. They have a similar patriarchal society and women have shunned it in great numbers .

The govt recognised partnership without marriage and probably since it has happened in such large numbers , there seems to be social acceptance.

 

The laws in India recognizes live in partnerships and the children born out of these. There is no legal taboo but socially it is a big taboo. 

 

With more and more women becoming independent , a section of women in future may reject the bindings of marriage and the patriarchal baggage that comes with it.

When the pros of staying unmarried grow bigger than the cons of the the patriarchal baggage....then we will see that happening in India too.

 

We are a free democratic country.

Our laws are fairly liberal ( barring a few) .

If things don't change socially...then we will see this change in future.

 

Edited by beetle
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There are so many issues with this report. Firstly, they don't take the population of the country in aspect to the crimes. That's a fundamental statistical failure. Then, from a political point of view, why is that this woman's safety only matters when BJP is in power? Are they saying that it was better in past? Then, traditional BJP strongholds like Gujarat are one of the better places for women whereas traditional secular government places like UP, Haryana have the biggest issues. Yet, there has been progress and much improvement, take Haryana for example, the sex ratio has increased.  This safety issue is a big and old issue and we need work together to fix it.

 

And India needs to work on the perception battle, many big countries have their own people in western propaganda whereas we have people with Indian ethnicity yet hate this country as our representative worldwide. It's a big issue.

 

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3 hours ago, someone said:

There are so many issues with this report. Firstly, they don't take the population of the country in aspect to the crimes. That's a fundamental statistical failure. Then, from a political point of view, why is that this woman's safety only matters when BJP is in power? Are they saying that it was better in past? Then, traditional BJP strongholds like Gujarat are one of the better places for women whereas traditional secular government places like UP, Haryana have the biggest issues. Yet, there has been progress and much improvement, take Haryana for example, the sex ratio has increased.  This safety issue is a big and old issue and we need work together to fix it.

 

And India needs to work on the perception battle, many big countries have their own people in western propaganda whereas we have people with Indian ethnicity yet hate this country as our representative worldwide. It's a big issue.

 

It has been done before as well, India was ranked 4th last time and Modi had shown concerns for women , a veiled criticism on the then government. RaGa, this time uses it to diss Modi. 

 

 

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-this-old-tweet-by-pm-modi-on-women-s-safety-in-india-based-on-a-reuters-poll-hasn-t-aged-well-2629962

 

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It is good to see the girls coming up with great points.

 

First let me clarify that I am not saying democracy is the cause of female infanticide, dowry and other social evils. I am saying these are issues which exist and have to be eradicated and let us have a discussion on practical measures which would get us there than some idealist ones. Don't mix them up.

 

I am personally against quotas which favor only a section or draconian laws which can be misused. But as I said before, for the overall good and to get the sections(which include women) which are still behind to an equivalent and competitive position, we will need them for some time. I am scared though in India this 'some time' can be forever. It is not about feminism or male chauvinism, it is more about humanism. There are reservations for jobs and even bus seats for Women in India. Is anyone opposing them saying why special treatment to them though they claim they are equal in all respects? 

 

If you think there is no middle class pre-independence, I don't agree. Though we haven't been born then we know from our parents and grandparents that a middle class existed.  I have seen some males kept away from the family for drinking and gambling during our childhood days. Adultery was scorned and I don't think it is as much a taboo these days. Most of the vices were mostly by men before and the women are catching up there and everyone has some bloody excuse citing expectations and necessities. I blame it on lowering of moral standards, as the necessities have gone up due to crass commercialism. No one is happy with what they have they but want more and more, a person with a tv wants a big screen tv and then a even bigger screen one. There is also a kind of social pressure which raises expectations and many bow down to this and compromise on their morals. For me the rich set the standard, the middle class aspire to get there and be accepted and the lower class just blindly follows. 

 

From time immemorial immoral men used inducements and coercion to get women but few fell for it. Now the number has increased on both the sides.

 

When I say the family system is breaking down, my comment is not about Joint family system. Accept it  or not Adultery has been on the rise for both men and women and now someone commented on divorce or livein relationship, it is the kids who suffer due to this. As long as they don't have them, it becomes easier to separate. In an ideal state, I don't believe in alimony and child support, but for this to happen the women have to become financially independent and as a society we all have to support them to achieve this. I don't believe in females getting the children too in case of divorce. Anyway when all these things are taken for granted what standards are we setting up for the kids going forward. When you talk to people in the west, they are in awe and admiration of the Indian family system. I think it was Sobers, who said once, that Indians are the most friendly people you will get but the fiercest when you mess with their families.

 

Regarding democracy ruining the moral standards - with all the freebies the people expect from the govt and all the govts competing in giving out doles to get re-elected, we are making people lazy and after sometime incapable of working looking for easy money, then all the shortcuts to keep going come into play.

 

I have thrown up some points, which might need more explanation but I guess good enough to get started or continue on a healthy discussion. It is hard typing in these lengthy posts :cantstop:, I might not get back to your replies soon but will when time permits.

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6 minutes ago, eternalhope said:

. Accept it  or not Adultery has been on the rise for both men and women 

In a mostly heterosexual society..

It takes a man and a woman to stray.

It always did .

 

It is naive to say adultery and the other socially unacceptable vices did not occur earlier.It has been happening forever.

These days with a phone and a camera in every hand, it is just more easier to get caught.

 

Besides ...when men and women work together, there are more chances of people straying.

That being said, if you look at the papers, there are more housewives involved in adultery cases that come in the news because of the violent ends.

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As for women also indulging in vices that were earlier associated with men....it is more because of opportunities opening up for them too.Earlier there were no opportunities.

 

Working women face the same pressures as men( and more) and some find same ways to get over  the pressure as men.

 

Band pinjare mein chidiya kya udegi.

Lack of opportunity is not a virtue.:p:

 

 Besides, it is far easier to succumb to vices than to resist for all humans .

Women are no exception.

 

 

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3 hours ago, MechEng said:

I'm a traditionalist at heart. What I fear the most is that if society completely loses it's traditional values, then the things we enjoy today or take for granted will be luxuries in future. Maa ke haath ka khana will be restricted to history books.

Necessity is the  mother of invention. 

My father have been to Kitchen perhaps 10-15 times after his marriage (and that too for small tasks like boiling milk, or making food warm and this does not counts in cooking). 

 

But I am almost able to cook as good as modern day wives (thanks to youtube for thousands of recipes), I cleans  the house (which is equal to Jharoo and Taki of my mother's time), washing clothes (although using washing machine, but afterwards hanging them and then folding them and packing them is same as old days and my father never did it). 

 

Now don't offer me a marriage proposal for all these qualities. I am a straight. :phehe:

 

===

 

In West, mothers and family do take a lot of care of small children. But with time, this care becomes less and less and children become totally independent at age of 18. 

 

In Pakistan, my father is still a child in some sense and my mother still needs to take care of him. :facepalm: He could not take care of himself. 

Edited by Alam_dar
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3 hours ago, MechEng said:

I'm a traditionalist at heart. What I fear the most is that if society completely loses it's traditional values, then the things we enjoy today or take for granted will be luxuries in future. Maa ke haath ka khana will be restricted to history books.

It will be referred to as sexism from the past. More recent history will have reference of food cooked by humans => food cooked by robots => take a chill pill.

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19 hours ago, eternalhope said:

It is good to see the girls coming up with great points.

 

First let me clarify that I am not saying democracy is the cause of female infanticide, dowry and other social evils. I am saying these are issues which exist and have to be eradicated and let us have a discussion on practical measures which would get us there than some idealist ones. Don't mix them up.

 

I am personally against quotas which favor only a section or draconian laws which can be misused. But as I said before, for the overall good and to get the sections(which include women) which are still behind to an equivalent and competitive position, we will need them for some time. I am scared though in India this 'some time' can be forever. It is not about feminism or male chauvinism, it is more about humanism. There are reservations for jobs and even bus seats for Women in India. Is anyone opposing them saying why special treatment to them though they claim they are equal in all respects? 

 

If you think there is no middle class pre-independence, I don't agree. Though we haven't been born then we know from our parents and grandparents that a middle class existed.  I have seen some males kept away from the family for drinking and gambling during our childhood days. Adultery was scorned and I don't think it is as much a taboo these days. Most of the vices were mostly by men before and the women are catching up there and everyone has some bloody excuse citing expectations and necessities. I blame it on lowering of moral standards, as the necessities have gone up due to crass commercialism. No one is happy with what they have they but want more and more, a person with a tv wants a big screen tv and then a even bigger screen one. There is also a kind of social pressure which raises expectations and many bow down to this and compromise on their morals. For me the rich set the standard, the middle class aspire to get there and be accepted and the lower class just blindly follows. 

 

From time immemorial immoral men used inducements and coercion to get women but few fell for it. Now the number has increased on both the sides.

 

When I say the family system is breaking down, my comment is not about Joint family system. Accept it  or not Adultery has been on the rise for both men and women and now someone commented on divorce or livein relationship, it is the kids who suffer due to this. As long as they don't have them, it becomes easier to separate. In an ideal state, I don't believe in alimony and child support, but for this to happen the women have to become financially independent and as a society we all have to support them to achieve this. I don't believe in females getting the children too in case of divorce. Anyway when all these things are taken for granted what standards are we setting up for the kids going forward. When you talk to people in the west, they are in awe and admiration of the Indian family system. I think it was Sobers, who said once, that Indians are the most friendly people you will get but the fiercest when you mess with their families.

 

Regarding democracy ruining the moral standards - with all the freebies the people expect from the govt and all the govts competing in giving out doles to get re-elected, we are making people lazy and after sometime incapable of working looking for easy money, then all the shortcuts to keep going come into play.

 

I have thrown up some points, which might need more explanation but I guess good enough to get started or continue on a healthy discussion. It is hard typing in these lengthy posts :cantstop:, I might not get back to your replies soon but will when time permits.

 

I don't count cases of mutual consent as vices today. 

In past, our societies compelled many people to become vices due to the frustration. The phenomenon of sex based segregation in the past was unnatural and not good for the psycho of the society. 

 

(In Pakistan, Pashtoons and Mullahs in the madaris have been compelled to rape the young children. So, not good for the poor young children. Although India didn't have this problem.)

 

Today children suffer more due to the separation. But in the past, it was mostly the woman that suffered the most due to the stupid husband and she was not able to leave him due to the social pressure. There was a lot of tension in such families, and it was also not good for the children. I believe in a lot of such cases (where tensions are high in the home), separation is also good and positive for the children.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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https://m.timesofindia.com/india/i-speak-so-that-others-wont-suffer-alone/articleshow/64811543.cms

 

This is why our country is so unsafe for women.

 

When a rape victim has to be worried about her family 's reaction and what they have to go through.

 

When a rape victim has little faith in the police because even they are often powerless against the powerful.....and sometimes corrupt.

 

When sexual assaulters within the family circle get protection by the family.

 

When victim is blamed for sexusl assault .

Getting sexually assaulted in a country like India is not just a physical and mental assault....it is often a never ending social assault.

 

God knows how many such victims never open their mouths because they are scared of the docial assault that follows.

 

 

 

Edited by beetle
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I would like to add here that most Indian feminists are usually the ones who don't need any kind of empowerment. They are all from financially well off backgrounds and are the ones with princess syndrome. You will rarely see the real ones who need empowerment because they offer constructive solutions to the problems instead of supporitng a propaganda.

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On 6/29/2018 at 4:14 AM, MechEng said:

I'm a traditionalist at heart. What I fear the most is that if society completely loses it's traditional values, then the things we enjoy today or take for granted will be luxuries in future. Maa ke haath ka khana will be restricted to history books.

Mama will still make food just that papa will do too. I know your intentions are good and at personal level.  But traditions are most quoted in misogynistic practices.

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