Please drop Pandya to maintain Test cricket’s sanctity.

[The Outsider]

16 minutes ago, sandeep said:

So, even if we use your numbers - we end up with a total of 15.5 overs per match.  If we play with 4 bowlers and bench Pandya, where are those 15+ overs coming from?  Add Umesh's inconsistency (or Shami's) - and what are we left with? A handicapped bowling attack that will end up over-using the better bowlers and rendering them toothless by their 3rd and 4th spells.  

 

Also, the fact that we didn't have viable options for that 5th bowler role skews those numbers quite a bit. If we had a decent allrounder available for selection, we may well have picked him and used him quite a bit.  The fact that we resorted to using the friendly offerings of Sanjay Bangar, for 21 overs per test match, says something. 

That analysis doesn’t make sense, because not all played the same tests. In fact, Ganguly retired for a significant part of that time, and Sehwag was dropped for many tests. Tendulkar was injured for many tests as well.

 

Bangar bowled 762 balls in 12 tests. How does that translate to 21 overs per test? That’s like 10 overs per test. 

 

It’s an easily verifiable fact that during India’s peak test match performance, Tendulkar was bowling little (almost no seam up), Ganguly was retired for a significant time, and when he was playing he was hardly bowling. 

[Rightarmfast]

13 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

See your words below:

 

 

No disrespect to Bangar, I have a lot of love, respect and admiration for his efforts and contributions to Indian cricket - as a player and a coach.  Bangar was a severely limited player with the bat, ball or in the field.  Pandya is demonstrably better than him in all 3 facets of cricket. 

 

I'm not a fan of show-boating and happen to think quite negatively of Pandya's off-field choices.  I don't even like Virat's antics on the field to be honest.  But if you are unable to look past that fluff, and evaluate Pandya dispassionately as a cricket prospect, and what he can do on the field, then its your issue.  

 

 

 

In which world?

[The Outsider]

12 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Why is everyone forgetting that Pandya was fast-tracked and doesn't have much of a FC record? Or that he didn't start bowling regularly until quite late?  

 

That's how he was when he first started.  He's added cutters, knuckle-balls, slower ball yorkers and bouncers - with the white-ball.  With the red-ball, he did get the ball to move at Edgbaston.  Not my problem if you didn't watch his bowling and are just going by the score-card.  

On what basis was Pandya fast tracked? His FC record isn’t of a rookie 17 year old Waqar Younis picked on potential and pace. His FC record is of someone who struggled to make FC teams till he was in his 20s, did jackshit, and got fast tracked because of this obsession to have a pace bowling bits and pieces cricketer in the name of an all rounder.

 

I did watch a lot of the Edgbaston Test and South Africa series. Admittedly, more than I should have. I am not discussing knuckle balls, neither did I watch ODIs or T20s.

[sandeep]

7 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

In which world?

In the world outside Plate-division level Ranji opponents like Assam, Services, etc.  Bangar has all of one noteworthy test innings with the bat - a valuable contribution that ended up being a winning one, thanks to the rest of the team filled with India-ATGs who delivered.  Pandya has a comparable noteworthy test innings as well - his 70-odd in South Africa in tough testing conditions against a quality bowling attack.  Unfortunately for him, rest of the team didn't come through unlike in Bangar's case.  

 

You can conveniently exaggerate the importance of Bangar's FC numbers, ignoring opponent quality, as well as the fact that Pandya was fast-tracked to the Indian team and hasn't played that much FC cricket.  

 

As LOI players, the gap between them is grand canyon-esque - both with bat and ball.  Statistically speaking as well as quality wise.  All Bangar has to show for himself in ODIs, is one streaky innings in a chase on a absolute road in India against a weak team, where he scored more runs off edges rather than the middle of the bat.  I watched that game.  I remember it quite well.  Pandya has already done more in ODI cricket than Bangar could even fantasize of.  

 

You are more focused on how Pandya "acts macho" etc and maybe his fugly haircuts, and you can't see Pandya's cricket abilities, or his performances.  To each his own. 

 

 

[express bowling]

I was just wondering why we spend so much time arguing so strongly about selection issues  (  I am an equally big culprit regarding this  )   ...  on which we have zero influence and control  !    

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, The Outsider said:

On what basis was Pandya fast tracked? His FC record isn’t of a rookie 17 year old Waqar Younis picked on potential and pace. His FC record is of someone who struggled to make FC teams till he was in his 20s, did jackshit, and got fast tracked because of this obsession to have a pace bowling bits and pieces cricketer in the name of an all rounder.

 

I did watch a lot of the Edgbaston Test and South Africa series. Admittedly, more than I should have. I am not discussing knuckle balls, neither did I watch ODIs or T20s.

He was fast-tracked because the Indian team had a vacancy for the skill-set he offers.  Its not his fault that there aren't better candidates than him.  

 

Comparing him to Waqar shows the laughable silliness of your logic - he's a batsman who can bowl a bit, and you want to compare him to one of the best test bowlers ever.  Of course he's going to fall short.  But that's your entire argument anyway - you have shifted the goalposts from the question of Pandya's merits or the logic of his selection - to whether he's a Sobers or Kallis or a Waqar.  That's a bullshit premise to begin with.  

 

As @zen has pointed out and others have repeatedly said, he is what he is, judge him for his skills and performances, and whether he adds value to the team that is needed - not some pie in the sky conceptual value of what an allrounder should be.  

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, The Outsider said:

That analysis doesn’t make sense, because not all played the same tests. In fact, Ganguly retired for a significant part of that time, and Sehwag was dropped for many tests. Tendulkar was injured for many tests as well.

 

Bangar bowled 762 balls in 12 tests. How does that translate to 21 overs per test? That’s like 10 overs per test. 

 

It’s an easily verifiable fact that during India’s peak test match performance, Tendulkar was bowling little (almost no seam up), Ganguly was retired for a significant time, and when he was playing he was hardly bowling. 

Bangar bowled 43 overs in 2 tests in England.  We are currently discussing the merits of selecting a #6/7 bat who can give you double-digit overs per innings.  

 

Again, if you shift the debate to a more general statistical sample, across different conditions, then of course the need and the argument for the 5th bowler is weakened.  

[The Outsider]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

He was fast-tracked because the Indian team had a vacancy for the skill-set he offers.  Its not his fault that there aren't better candidates than him.  

 

Comparing him to Waqar shows the laughable silliness of your logic - he's a batsman who can bowl a bit, and you want to compare him to one of the best test bowlers ever.  Of course he's going to fall short.  But that's your entire argument anyway - you have shifted the goalposts from the question of Pandya's merits or the logic of his selection - to whether he's a Sobers or Kallis or a Waqar.  That's a bullshit premise to begin with.  

 

As @zen has pointed out and others have repeatedly said, he is what he is, judge him for his skills and performances, and whether he adds value to the team that is needed - not some pie in the sky conceptual value of what an allrounder should be.  

A pace bowling bits and pieces cricketer is nothing that the Indian team needs.

 

I would have no issues fast tracking Pant or Shaw. Pant not ahead of Saha, though. But given Saha is injured in this series.

 

I compared him to Waqar because when someone is fast tracked he is done on the basis of a limited FC record (Pandya has a substantial sample) and extraordinary cricketing abilities. The ‘89 India-Pakistan series featured Tendulkar and Waqar, fast tracked and while their series stats were not amazing, anyone watching the series could see the skills they brought forth. 

 

And earlier in the thread, when I said forget Pandya’s stats (ignoring he is 25 and not 17, and unlikely to develop any significant new ones except knuckle balls), show me what he has to offer in cricketing skills. Does he have an immaculate defense while batting? Can he bowl at 150 kmph? Can he gain prodigious swing anywhere? Can he demolish attacks like Sehwag and Gilchrist over a sustained period? Nothing. 

 

Hammock for bowlers.

[Rightarmfast]

18 minutes ago, sandeep said:

In the world outside Plate-division level Ranji opponents like Assam, Services, etc.  Bangar has all of one noteworthy test innings with the bat - a valuable contribution that ended up being a winning one, thanks to the rest of the team filled with India-ATGs who delivered.  Pandya has a comparable noteworthy test innings as well - his 70-odd in South Africa in tough testing conditions against a quality bowling attack.  Unfortunately for him, rest of the team didn't come through unlike in Bangar's case.  

 

You can conveniently exaggerate the importance of Bangar's FC numbers, ignoring opponent quality, as well as the fact that Pandya was fast-tracked to the Indian team and hasn't played that much FC cricket.  

 

As LOI players, the gap between them is grand canyon-esque - both with bat and ball.  Statistically speaking as well as quality wise.  All Bangar has to show for himself in ODIs, is one streaky innings in a chase on a absolute road in India against a weak team, where he scored more runs off edges rather than the middle of the bat.  I watched that game.  I remember it quite well.  Pandya has already done more in ODI cricket than Bangar could even fantasize of.  

 

You are more focused on how Pandya "acts macho" etc and maybe his fugly haircuts, and you can't see Pandya's cricket abilities, or his performances.  To each his own. 

 

 

Hahahaha! The sole criteria for him being better than Bangar is the fact that at times Pandya bowls 140+ ! Lolz! Even just as a bowler, Bangar was way better than Pandya. As a batsman, there's no comparison between the 2. Pandya is no more than a hack, whereas Bangar could open and used to handle things well. 

As a bowler, he used to take important wickets. WICKETS! Something Pandya knows nothing about! You can keep on writing about Pandya, but nothing will change the fact that he is no match to Bangar. Heck, he isnt even better than Irfan Pathan in any deptt. 

[UrmiSinhaRay]

Hardik Pandya is there so that they can use the excuse of his bad performance to drop him and bring in Arjun Tendu

Sent from my CPH1609 using Tapatalk

[The Outsider]

18 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Bangar bowled 43 overs in 2 tests in England.  We are currently discussing the merits of selecting a #6/7 bat who can give you double-digit overs per innings.  

 

Again, if you shift the debate to a more general statistical sample, across different conditions, then of course the need and the argument for the 5th bowler is weakened.  

He bowled those many overs because he was picking up more wickets than front line pacers like Aag. Also, if my memory serves me correct (can’t access Cricinfo to confirm) most of these were on the Oval patta. 

 

During our win win at Headingley, he was used as a wicket taking option in the second innings because Aag was being Aag.

[sandeep]

7 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Hahahaha! The sole criteria for him being better than Bangar is the fact that at times Pandya bowls 140+ ! Lolz! Even just as a bowler, Bangar was way better than Pandya. As a batsman, there's no comparison between the 2. Pandya is no more than a hack, whereas Bangar could open and used to handle things well. 

As a bowler, he used to take important wickets. WICKETS! Something Pandya knows nothing about! You can keep on writing about Pandya, but nothing will change the fact that he is no match to Bangar. Heck, he isnt even better than Irfan Pathan in any deptt. 

"hahaha"  Where in the post you quoted do you find any mention of pace or bowling speeds? "Lolz".  

 

Making up strawmen is quite a desperate thing to do.   Rest of your post is filled with vague general opinions, since you couldn't come up with anything substantive to counter the points I made. 

 

Please name a test innings of substance outside of the famous Headingley test win by Sanjay Bangar.  And an ODI innings except the edgy chase against West Indies.  Just one.  

 

 

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, The Outsider said:

He bowled those many overs because he was picking up more wickets than front line pacers like Aag. Also, if my memory serves me correct (can’t access Cricinfo to confirm) most of these were on the Oval patta. 

 

During our win win at Headingley, he was used as a wicket taking option in the second innings because Aag was being Aag.

Ah, so the 5th bowler was used more in a match where he was picked, because one of the primary pacers wasn't bowling well.  I guess that scenario is pretty much guaranteed never to happen with the likes of Umesh and Shami in the team eh?  

 

Anybody who has a basic understanding of test cricket knows that just because someone picked up wickets doesn't mean they bowled well.  Context matters.  Anyway, I have said all I had to on this subject.  Can only lead horses to water, and all that jazz.

 

 

 

 

[Rightarmfast]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

"hahaha"  Where in the post you quoted do you find any mention of pace or bowling speeds? "Lolz".  

 

Making up strawmen is quite a desperate thing to do.   Rest of your post is filled with vague general opinions, since you couldn't come up with anything substantive to counter the points I made. 

 

Please name a test innings of substance outside of the famous Headingley test win by Sanjay Bangar.  And an ODI innings except the edgy chase against West Indies.  Just one.  

 

 

Your whole argument, if thats what you call, in the entire thread is made or rhetorics and assumptions. I do not have to prove anything. Any sane person can check the records. How Bangar performed in England, and Pandya's performance. Heck, you can check his bowling against Afghanistan. That should be an indication.

I have already mentioned about their first class career too. How much more would anyone substantiate? The onus of substantiating and proving lies on you, since you claim Pandya to be better without any known performance!

[zen]

If we have to create random standards for Pandya -> he has bat like Sobers and bowl like Hadlee

 

 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

11 minutes ago, The Outsider said:

He bowled those many overs because he was picking up more wickets than front line pacers like Aag. Also, if my memory serves me correct (can’t access Cricinfo to confirm) most of these were on the Oval patta. 

 

During our win win at Headingley, he was used as a wicket taking option in the second innings because Aag was being Aag.

ho gaya , fenk lia

He was no aag, u were crying about pandya 88 s/r ....wait bangar bowling s/r was even worse 108 

he picked 2 wkts in leeds n 2 in oval, ye konsi aag hai 

 

 

He picked more wkts then other pacers 

Zak- 11

agarkar-8

nehra- 5

bangar- 4

 

These are bangar bowling stats in that series - avg of 49 , s/r 108... wkts- 4

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

58 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

In which world?

in every world

Pandya is a better fielder

Bangar bowling avg - 108

pandya- 88

 

Pandya batting avg 35

Bangar 29 

 

Bangar was a trunlder, pandya clocks around 140

 

He played one good knock in headingly , pandya has played in SA

Pandya has a long career ahead of him

Edited August 7, 2018 by Ankit_sharma03

[sandeep]

Just now, Rightarmfast said:

Your whole argument, if thats what you call, in the entire thread is made or rhetorics and assumptions. I do not have to prove anything. Any sane person can check the records. How Bangar performed in England, and Pandya's performance. Heck, you can check his bowling against Afghanistan. That should be an indication.

I have already mentioned about their first class career too. How much more would anyone substantiate? The onus of substantiating and proving lies on you, since you claim Pandya to be better without any known performance!

On the batting front, Bangar has a famous 50 in England, Pandya has one equally good, if not better, in South Africa.  Please name ONE noteworthy test innings from him.  For eg  Pandya scored a test century away from home.  Bangar.......

ODIs - Sanjay Bangar averages a whopping 13.8 with the bat, with a strike-rate of 75.  Hardik's corresponding ODI numbers are - 29.5 at 114 SR.   I don't think anything further needs to be said.  On the bowling front, Bangar took half a wicket per match at an average of 54+ - while Hardik picks up about a wicket per match, at an average around 40. Fielding - no need to say anything.  

 

Like I said above,  Sanjay Bangar in his own wet dream wouldn't dream of matching Pandya's ODI performances.  But you are allowed your own version though.

 

 

In fact, I just checked their respective test numbers - and guess what?  Pandya has better average with both bat and ball than Bangar.   

 

"Lolz".  "Hahahaha".  etc etc.  I guess facts don't matter when you don't like a certain player because he "acts macho".  

 

 

 

[The Outsider]

3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

ho gaya , fenk lia

He was no aag, u were crying about pandya 88 s/r ....wait bangar bowling s/r was even worse 108 

he picked 2 wkts in leeds n 2 in oval, ye konsi aag hai 

 

 

He picked more wkts then other pacers 

Zak- 11

agarkar-8

nehra- 5

bangar- 4

 

These are bangar bowling stats in that series - avg of 49 , s/r 108... wkts- 4

 

Why do these noobs come forth to katwaayo their bewakoof? Can someone please explain to him, whom I was referring to with the ‘Aag’ reference or should I?

 

’Koi bataye ki hum bataayein Aag kaun hai’

[Ankit_sharma03]

Now for ppl having keeda regd Jadeja 

 

Jadeja bowling overseas ( coz their is no question in reds to his place in subcontinet 

avg - 42

s/r 96

 

Now if take WI out

avg - 46

s/r - 102

 

Now his batting avg overseas

avg 20

 

Last time he played in england 

bowling avg - 47, S/r- 104

batting avg - 22