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The Outsider

Play Shaw, Pant, and Siraj; soft debuts do little good

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I dont agree with you on various issues but i agree with you here. But many will say that Pant still isnt a very good WK. But then same was said about MSD.

 

Secondly this concept of "system" has creeped into Indian cricket. Recently Dravid was saying that Siraj didnot play age cricket so he is just getting into the "system". So this system culture needs to go. Thats the reason why the likes of Nair Thakur etc are in the team as they apparently entered the system early.

 

The system seemingly is Age cricket to FC to Team A and then Indian team. 1

 

@the outsider

 

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43 minutes ago, express bowling said:

For senior team selection,  the process followed for selection has become more important than the outcome of that process.

 

The A-team selections have generally been great though.

A lot of blame/responsibility for the selection conservatism has to be laid firmly on the shoulders of the captain.  After Kumble's ouster, its extremely clear who calls the shots in the Indian team management.  

 

And Virat has consistently shown a very strong preference to back "seniors" for years now.  Go back to the very first time he was Captain - a LOI series against Zimbabwe - pretty much a glorified practice tour.  Parvez Rasool was much hyped then and made the squad.  Didn't get a single game while VK played Jadeja every match. Questioned on it, he said that if a 'regular' player is fit and available, I'm always going to give him the game first.  He didn't care about giving new players opportunities.  

 

Loyalty - Its Virat's guiding principle in leading Team India.  He has backed the guys he believes in - for better or worse.  In some cases, this faith has paid dividends.  Even the most ardent of Dhoni fans has to admit that Umesh Yadav has blossomed into a more consistent bowler under VK than he ever was under MS.  But in the cases of Mr. Thigh Five and Natural Tailunt - Virat's loyalty has arguably hurt the team.  Quite a bit.  

 

For the forseeable future, the Indian team is not going to make any major change, unless it is forced upon them.  Even the induction of ChaaKu was forced upon them due to the incumbent finger spinners' severely sub-par performances in the CT.  Dhoni will have to probably lose a limb before he's jettisoned from the LOI setup.  

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11 minutes ago, sandeep said:

A lot of blame/responsibility for the selection conservatism has to be laid firmly on the shoulders of the captain.  After Kumble's ouster, its extremely clear who calls the shots in the Indian team management.  

 

And Virat has consistently shown a very strong preference to back "seniors" for years now.  Go back to the very first time he was Captain - a LOI series against Zimbabwe - pretty much a glorified practice tour.  Parvez Rasool was much hyped then and made the squad.  Didn't get a single game while VK played Jadeja every match. Questioned on it, he said that if a 'regular' player is fit and available, I'm always going to give him the game first.  He didn't care about giving new players opportunities.  

 

Loyalty - Its Virat's guiding principle in leading Team India.  He has backed the guys he believes in - for better or worse.  In some cases, this faith has paid dividends.  Even the most ardent of Dhoni fans has to admit that Umesh Yadav has blossomed into a more consistent bowler under VK than he ever was under MS.  But in the cases of Mr. Thigh Five and Natural Tailunt - Virat's loyalty has arguably hurt the team.  Quite a bit.  

 

For the forseeable future, the Indian team is not going to make any major change, unless it is forced upon them.  Even the induction of ChaaKu was forced upon them due to the incumbent finger spinners' severely sub-par performances in the CT.  Dhoni will have to probably lose a limb before he's jettisoned from the LOI setup.  

 

Agree with most of it.

 

Kohli does not like inexperienced players. I think it is partially due to the " safe approach "  that he follows, which is evident in his LOI batting too, with low percentage of lofted shots. New players are unknown entities and therefore they give a sense of lack of control ... and Kohli likes to control anything and everything around him.

 

Interestingly, even Kumble liked experienced players and was responsible for Gambhir and Parthiv being called back in tests and Yuvi in ODIs. He said in an interview about his willingness to have Gambhir and  Yuvi back.

 

But my post was about the strict process being followed in senior squad selections.  Shardul entered the selection fray first ... so he is selected although everone thinks that Siraj would do better based on current form and ability.

 

 Hence I said ... the process of selection is getting precedence over the results of that process.

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21 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Agree with most of it.

 

Kohli does not like inexperienced players. I think it is partially due to the " safe approach "  that he follows, which is evident in his LOI batting too, with low percentage of lofted shots. New players are unknown entities and therefore they give a sense of lack of control ... and Kohli likes to control anything and everything around him.

 

Interestingly, even Kumble liked experienced players and was responsible for Gambhir and Parthiv being called back in tests and Yuvi in ODIs. He said in an interview about his willingness to have Gambhir and  Yuvi back.

 

But my post was about the strict process being followed in senior squad selections.  Shardul entered the selection fray first ... so he is selected although everone thinks that Siraj would do better based on current form and ability.

 

 Hence I said ... the process of selection is getting precedence over the results of that process.

what makes me sad is the person who cud make him change his approach has decided to take his pay cheque- shastri ( he is the highest paid coach, man of jls of such guys who get paid for not doing much:--D )

 

If u see shastri views as commentators for so many yrs he was very vocal n encouraging regd new talent , infact he suppourted chappel views of getting in new player n dropping player like ganguly thats why ganguly n him has this issue going on for yrs. Even during that phase post 2015Wc where he went back to commentary in IPL, he was so excited about young talent specially spoke highly about pant. HE also has talked about backing young talent to gr8 extent in commentary but its all been musical chairs under them . Looks Like kohli is highly dominating and kohli has decided to take back seat n do bhashan baaji for motivation when needed. 

 

At the end its a captain''s team but this is not good for our cricket in long term, sadly results are hiding our gaping holes which come us to bite in between but that gets overlooked. Unfortunately things wnt change much till the change in leadership is being made. 

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1 hour ago, sandeep said:

A lot of blame/responsibility for the selection conservatism has to be laid firmly on the shoulders of the captain.  After Kumble's ouster, its extremely clear who calls the shots in the Indian team management.  

 

And Virat has consistently shown a very strong preference to back "seniors" for years now.  Go back to the very first time he was Captain - a LOI series against Zimbabwe - pretty much a glorified practice tour.  Parvez Rasool was much hyped then and made the squad.  Didn't get a single game while VK played Jadeja every match. Questioned on it, he said that if a 'regular' player is fit and available, I'm always going to give him the game first.  He didn't care about giving new players opportunities.  

 

Loyalty - Its Virat's guiding principle in leading Team India.  He has backed the guys he believes in - for better or worse.  In some cases, this faith has paid dividends.  Even the most ardent of Dhoni fans has to admit that Umesh Yadav has blossomed into a more consistent bowler under VK than he ever was under MS.  But in the cases of Mr. Thigh Five and Natural Tailunt - Virat's loyalty has arguably hurt the team.  Quite a bit.  

 

For the forseeable future, the Indian team is not going to make any major change, unless it is forced upon them.  Even the induction of ChaaKu was forced upon them due to the incumbent finger spinners' severely sub-par performances in the CT.  Dhoni will have to probably lose a limb before he's jettisoned from the LOI setup.  

Plus, I think recent ODI/T20/IPL and home test performances consciously or subconsciously cloud the judgment of team management.  This is especially true in the case of batsmen like Dhawan and Rohit Sharma.  I am betting that, if RGS was available in the 14 and was in good form in LOIs, he would have made it in Rahane's spot.  

 

They seem to have a good horses-for-courses policy with bowlers, but not when it comes to batsmen.  Pujara is the one guy that is easily dispensable using bad county form as a reason (rightfully) because he has no recent ODI/T20 runs to demonstrate his form.  JMHO.

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To the OP. under present circumstances, soft debuts of young upcoming talent would be a good problem to have.

 

In Westindies last year in a series that made absolutely no sense, we had Yum Yess Dee keeping against a hapless WI side. Our back up keeper was Dinesh Karthik and our top order was Rahane,Kohli,Yuvraj,Jadhav and Dhawan. Pretty sure soft debuts would have been a welcome change then.

 

Similarly the bowling attack was the same old Yadav,Ashwin,BK etc.

 

In the Nidihaas trophy against the mighty Bangladesh and Srilanka which was in fact played after the dominant U-19 WC we selected Unadkut and Thakur. Sure Siraj, Pant and Shankar were given a shot but in a unforgiving T20 format and already people started writing them off as hacks based on those chances. In fact DK has earned a guaranteed shot based on those heroics which may hurt us more in the long run.

 

When Dhawan/ Rohit get injured in LOI's the replacement seems to be Rahane. if Dhoni decides to take a break,we go with Karthik. or if Saha gets injured it is Parthiv or Karthik. if a middle order slot is vacant in LOI's  it goes to Manish Richards or Allrounder Suresh Raina.

 

Unadkut is a phone call away from being anyone's replacement in any format. Rayudu is on the verge of a recall.So what are the soft debuts you are talking about?

 

Nair and Jayant Yadav 2 youngsters who had promising debuts but we were persisting with Rohit Sharma until recently.

 

Rahul inexplicably seems one bad game away from getting dropped for good and seems the most indispensable member of this side.

 

Even in Zimbabwe a couple if years back,we had Dhoni captaining the side which had Faiz Fazal,Binny and once again Jaydev Unadkut. wouldn't you be ok with a few soft debuts there?

 

You are talking about Biryani, Yehaan tho daal-roti ke vaande hai bhai.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Global.Baba

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9 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Interestingly, even Kumble liked experienced players and was responsible for Gambhir and Parthiv being called back in tests and Yuvi in ODIs. He said in an interview about his willingness to have Gambhir and  Yuvi back.

 

 

At that time which young opener was in contention? Remember even Nair, a youngster was given chance during that home series, Kuldeep debuted when Kohli was not the captain. I don't remember any good young keeper claiming for the place then if vacancy arose either, in 2016.

Do you remember?

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One thing I want to add is selectors tendency to first try out youngsters in T20 internationals when they have done well in 4-day or 50 overs format. This is a basic stuff that they can't seem to understand that T20s are not an ideal format to showcase their true skills. You have a tournament like IPL, so select players for T20s based on the IPL performance and treat 50 overs and Test Cricket separately. Seriously, how dumb there selectors are? 

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8 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

To the OP. under present circumstances, soft debuts of young upcoming talent would be a good problem to have.

 

In Westindies last year in a series that made absolutely no sense, we had Yum Yess Dee keeping against a hapless WI side. Our back up keeper was Dinesh Karthik and our top order was Rahane,Kohli,Yuvraj,Jadhav and Dhawan. Pretty sure soft debuts would have been a welcome change then.

 

Similarly the bowling attack was the same old Yadav,Ashwin,BK etc.

 

In the Nidihaas trophy against the mighty Bangladesh and Srilanka which was in fact played after the dominant U-19 WC we selected Unadkut and Thakur. Sure Siraj, Pant and Shankar were given a shot but in a unforgiving T20 format and already people started writing them off as hacks based on those chances. In fact DK has earned a guaranteed shot based on those heroics which may hurt us more in the long run.

 

When Dhawan/ Rohit get injured in LOI's the replacement seems to be Rahane. if Dhoni decides to take a break,we go with Karthik. or if Saha gets injured it is Parthiv or Karthik. if a middle order slot is vacant in LOI's  it goes to Manish Richards or Allrounder Suresh Raina.

 

Unadkut is a phone call away from being anyone's replacement in any format. Rayudu is on the verge of a recall.So what are the soft debuts you are talking about?

 

Nair and Jayant Yadav 2 youngsters who had promising debuts but we were persisting with Rohit Sharma until recently.

 

Rahul inexplicably seems one bad game away from getting dropped for good and seems the most indispensable member of this side.

 

Even in Zimbabwe a couple if years back,we had Dhoni captaining the side which had Faiz Fazal,Binny and once again Jaydev Unadkut. wouldn't you be ok with a few soft debuts there?

 

You are talking about Biryani, Yehaan tho daal-roti ke vaande hai bhai.

 

 

 

 

 

Satyawachan dot wale Babaji

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It's as clear as daylight that these 3 need to be backed. We don't have to look far either. England have been a very poor test team for a couple of years but ed Smith is backing youngsters like Curran, porter ,Bess and pope and they are making some brave decisions. Already Curran and Bess have given a good account of themselves. 

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3 hours ago, Chandan said:

At that time which young opener was in contention?

 

Abhinav Mukund was the front-runner for the backup opener's slot at that time. But Gambhir got in. Gambhir had to be dropped after 2 tests when he looked like a fish out of water and Parthiv opened for a test. Then Rahul came back. Mukund got his chance later that season against Australia for a test and once against in SL in 2017. Made a 81 in his last test but was never picked again.

 

3 hours ago, Chandan said:

Remember even Nair, a youngster was given chance during that home series,

Nair had to be picked as both Rohit and Rahane were injured. No choice.

 

3 hours ago, Chandan said:

I don't remember any good young keeper claiming for the place then if vacancy arose either, in 2016.

Do you remember?

 

Pant was shortlisted when Saha was injured in 2016. Srikar Bharat ( keeper who took 10 or 11 catches in the last A-team game )  was in the reckoning too.  Thing is ... atleast half the state level keepers are better than Parthiv.

 

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17 hours ago, Laaloo said:

Agreed with all points. I'd rather lose with these players than the current bunch of losers we keep playing.

I don't agree with that, the current players when they were out of team or coming up  were touted as saviours .Rahul dropped for one test was such a hue and cry , people reacted as if he would have won India series if he had played first test.

 

Players outside the team will always look good when team loses.Reality is other than Karthik these are the best players in country as of now.

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53 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I don't agree with that, the current players when they were out of team or coming up  were touted as saviours .Rahul dropped for one test was such a hue and cry , people reacted as if he would have won India series if he had played first test.

 

Players outside the team will always look good when team loses.Reality is other than Karthik these are the best players in country as of now.

Disagree. How is dhawan better? How is pujara better? How is Vijay better? How is rahane any better? Players outside the team look good not because the team loses but because either these players are not good or over the hill. Take your pick.

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1 minute ago, Laaloo said:

Disagree. How is dhawan better? How is pujara better? How is Vijay better? How is rahane any better? Players outside the team look good not because the team loses but because either these players are not good or over the hill. Take your pick.

Who is better than them??? Shaw and Gill give me a break.Nobody in this team is over 35, how are they over the hill.

 

Teams just don't start winning overseas, it is going to be long haul.Under Kohli they are doing right things. losing close test or series away from home is no shame.SA and here so far they have been right there.They will get over line.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Who is better than them??? Shaw and Gill give me a break.Nobody in this team is over 35, how are they over the hill.

 

Teams just don't start winning overseas, it is going to be long haul.Under Kohli they are doing right things. losing close test or series away from home is no shame.SA and here so far they have been right there.They will get over line.

 

 

Vijay is over the hill. Dhawan sucks overseas. Rahane hardly does anything. Pujara sucks. Karthik has been given umpteen chances.how many more chances? Of course it is going to be a long haul. So why don't we start grooming young players for the long haul instead of same old recycled trash.

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8 hours ago, Lannister said:

One thing I want to add is selectors tendency to first try out youngsters in T20 internationals when they have done well in 4-day or 50 overs format. This is a basic stuff that they can't seem to understand that T20s are not an ideal format to showcase their true skills. You have a tournament like IPL, so select players for T20s based on the IPL performance and treat 50 overs and Test Cricket separately. Seriously, how dumb there selectors are? 

Selectors are just dummies, similar to Shastriji. This is our beloved kaptaan's crap logic as usual. Listen to it from the horse's mouth:

wB6JDyDj0Mw

 

So even if you are a longer format specialist you will have to play T20 first to get discarded for non performance.

 

Happened with Siraj where he got bucket load of wickets in Ranji and 50 over format but was played in T20s and discarded from team based on poor performance in that format.

Edited by Forever Indian

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Just now, Laaloo said:

Vijay is over the hill. Dhawan sucks overseas. Rahane hardly does anything. Pujara sucks. Karthik has been given umpteen chances.how many more chances? Of course it is going to be a long haul. So why don't we start grooming young players for the long haul instead of same old recycled trash.

But you just cannot discard players who scored 100s before one test.Karthik is only one I agree, he should never be in the team.Pant should play instead of him.Dhawan and Pujara are interchangable.

Didn't whole media and this forum make so much fuss about Rahane in SA.

You know how well Dravid did against Australia in 1999 and how long it took him to become a  core player.

I have not seen any youngster who is ready,  Shaws and Gills would be mince meat versus Anderson and co.You have to draft youngster one at a time, you just can't replace your core batsman.Vijay is on his last legs , if he does not do well here, I think he and Dhawan will be gone.

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16 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

Selectors are just dummies, similar to Shastriji. This is our beloved kaptaan's crap logic as usual. Listen to it from the horse's mouth:

wB6JDyDj0Mw

 

So even if you are a longer format specialist you will have to play T20 first to get discarded for non performance.

 

Happened with Suraj where he got bucket load of wickets in Ranji and 50 over format but was played in T20s and discarded from team based on poor performance in that format.

How dumb can these guys get? I don't know if they are doing it intentionally or just that they are clueless about their job and finding it hard to differentiate between the formats. The ex-players also keep it mum on this issue, which makes it even more annoying. 

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All 3 deserve a chance.   Do we really want to win series ? If so how are batting averages between range of 7 - 21 of specialist batsmen going to help in tough conditions. We need to give them a chance before saying the kidos will also be averaging between 7 - 21. Who knows they might even do good in range of 25 - 45. There can always be some  plus side given the very low standards the seniors have set.

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3 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

All 3 deserve a chance.   Do we really want to win series ? If so how are batting averages between range of 7 - 21 of specialist batsmen going to help in tough conditions. We need to give them a chance before saying the kidos will also be averaging between 7 - 21. Who knows they might even do good in range of 25 - 45. There can always be some  plus side given the very low standards the seniors have set.

What will you do if these kids average that low even in India.

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21 minutes ago, Lannister said:

How dumb can these guys get? I don't know if they are doing it intentionally or just that they are clueless about their job and finding it hard to differentiate between the formats. The ex-players also keep it mum on this issue, which makes it even more annoying. 

i would say they are clueless.  Being good or great cricketers does not necessarily make them the brightest minds.

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23 minutes ago, Lannister said:

How dumb can these guys get? I don't know if they are doing it intentionally or just that they are clueless about their job and finding it hard to differentiate between the formats. The ex-players also keep it mum on this issue, which makes it even more annoying. 

Sometimes I think Kohli is being cunning/selfish and other times think he is plain dumb when it comes to captaincy.

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12 minutes ago, putrevus said:

What will you do if these kids average that low even in India.

We play Australia in Australia between Nov - Jan (our next test series after the ongoing one). After seeing the miserable performance of specialist batters in SA, this series was a right opportunity to try some one else. However, some of them  (Prithvi / Shubman)are not even in squad. We do not have a problem in batting in India. Same batsmen have been scoring 100+, 150+, 200+. The problem was in conditions of SA and England and selectors have opted for same players who showed tendency to fail in such conditions. 

Edited by Straight Drive

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13 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

We play Australia in Australia between Nov - Jan (our next test series after the ongoing one). After seeing the miserable performance of specialist batters in SA, this series was a right opportunity to try some one else. However, some of them  (Prithvi / Shubman)are not even in squad. We do not have a problem in batting in India. Same batsmen have been scoring 100+, 150+, 200+. The problem was in conditions of SA and England and selectors have opted for same players who showed tendency to fail in such conditions. 

You can't pick and choose players based on conditions.They have invested lot of time in this current squad, you just don't discard them after one series.Gills and Shaws are not even sureties to score in India leave alone Australia.There are only 5 spots ,one of them is occupied by Kohli.

Which batsmen from SA scored, they also were hopeless bar one or two.

Selectors cannot act on whims and hopes.

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8 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You can't pick and choose players based on conditions.They have invested lot of time in this current squad, you just don't discard them after one series.Gills and Shaws are not even sureties to score in India leave alone Australia.There are only 5 spots ,one of them is occupied by Kohli.

Which batsmen from SA scored, they also were hopeless bar one or two.

Selectors cannot act on whims and hopes.

I guess the batsmen apart from Virat have failed in more than one series in such conditions. Ideally we would need to develop all-weather batsmen. That should be the objective imo rather than continue playing FTB's. 

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1 hour ago, Straight Drive said:

I guess the batsmen apart from Virat have failed in more than one series in such conditions. Ideally we would need to develop all-weather batsmen. That should be the objective imo rather than continue playing FTB's. 

That is easier said than done. you just have seen how SA got smashed in SL test series. Playing away from home has become increasingly hard.

 

You need some luck too to get some good core players who are all weather players.

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On 8/9/2018 at 2:07 AM, express bowling said:

Interestingly, even Kumble liked experienced players and was responsible for Gambhir and Parthiv being called back in tests and Yuvi in ODIs. He said in an interview about his willingness to have Gambhir and  Yuvi back.

I am not too sold on the idea that kumble would have done wonders with the team.

Gambhir , parthiv and yuvi were like taking ten steps back. It is like trying out' m-seal' solutions.

Neither shastri nor kumble are the answer.

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Kuch nahin hone wala. There will be a few individual performances with Kohli shining. The rest will be the same, another series loss with may one game salvaged at the end when all is lost. Poyzz go back home on pattas and score runs and become over complacent, then Aus series comes and Indian team approach the first test with no real preparation ..... Rinse repeat .... ground hog day!

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13 hours ago, Forever Indian said:

Selectors are just dummies, similar to Shastriji. This is our beloved kaptaan's crap logic as usual. Listen to it from the horse's mouth:



wB6JDyDj0Mw

 

So even if you are a longer format specialist you will have to play T20 first to get discarded for non performance.

 

Happened with Siraj where he got bucket load of wickets in Ranji and 50 over format but was played in T20s and discarded from team based on poor performance in that format.

Siraj is not a T20 player! This way he'll never make it to the ODI and Test teams.

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11/2. Prithvi and Shubman and Rishabh should be give a chance. Can they have a pathetic average like these guys for two continuous series? SA tour flopped, first test flopped, first innings of second test the top order flops again as well. Yet we want to ignore the kidos. 

Edited by Straight Drive

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2 hours ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Shaw is a better opener already than Vijay/Dhawan.

Only in fantasies at this point.  once he plays and gets out early in these conditions, you will be the first one to call out his poor technique.  He will be a sitting duck against Anderson.

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Only in fantasies at this point.  once he plays and gets out early in these conditions, you will be the first one to call out his poor technique.  He will be a sitting duck against Anderson.
Shaw is an aggressive player.He might get out early but he will score runs.

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10 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Only in fantasies at this point.  once he plays and gets out early in these conditions, you will be the first one to call out his poor technique.  He will be a sitting duck against Anderson.

Well fantasies do come into reality sometimes. But you don't get anything if you don't try. Playing TTFs serves no purpose.

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27 minutes ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

And the basis of this assumption is?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

he has failed in most first innings till now for India A when pitch is fresh and there is something for bowlers, example today's India A game.  

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26 minutes ago, CG said:
35 minutes ago, rkt.india said:
Only in fantasies at this point.  once he plays and gets out early in these conditions, you will be the first one to call out his poor technique.  He will be a sitting duck against Anderson.

Shaw is an aggressive player.He might get out early but he will score runs.

it is about heights of expectations.  Same people on ICF will write books on ICF once he fails.

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31 minutes ago, CG said:
40 minutes ago, rkt.india said:
Only in fantasies at this point.  once he plays and gets out early in these conditions, you will be the first one to call out his poor technique.  He will be a sitting duck against Anderson.

Shaw is an aggressive player.He might get out early but he will score runs.

What is Dhawan then a Gavaskar, Shaw would be exactly like Dhawan a sitting duck against Anderson.

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What is Dhawan then a Gavaskar, Shaw would be exactly like Dhawan a sitting duck against Anderson.
Unless u Try U will never know.India Needs New Openers Vijay is done so is Dhawan.

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7 minutes ago, CG said:
28 minutes ago, putrevus said:
What is Dhawan then a Gavaskar, Shaw would be exactly like Dhawan a sitting duck against Anderson.

Unless u Try U will never know.India Needs New Openers Vijay is done so is Dhawan.

While I agree with your point .Vijay and Dhawan scored hundred albeit at home against Aghanistanbefore coming here.You have to understand selectors too.

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