Sans Virat Kohli, where is India's backbone?

[Trichromatic]

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After losing at Edgbaston, a Test they probably should have won, Kohli asked his batsmen to hold up a mirror and reflect upon their mistakes. That mirror lies shattered. All the Indian batsmen, including Kohli in the first innings, made it clear no lessons were learned.

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The most worrisome thing for Kohli, head coach Ravi Shastri and batting coach Sanjay Bangar is the uncertainty in mind and technique every specialist batsman has displayed, thus allowing England's bowlers to seize the initiative without needing to toil.

This is why I believe it's time to be decisive and allow at least 1 batsman to go after the bowling. These bowlers are bowling too much in their comfort zone and batsmen are battling in that zone only. There is no attempt to bring them out. They are like Abhimanyu caught in that chakravyuh hoping that they will somehow defend and survive this relentless attack.

 

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Vijay cannot seem to figure out whether he wants to bat defensively, which used to be his strength, or push the run rate as he attempted to in South Africa. Leaving the ball was how Vijay built his innings and transferred the pressure back onto the new-ball bowlers in his best years. But that strength has diminished now and he looks uncertain.

There are 2 aspects to this issue. First one about team strategy - is that causing an issue or is there a lack of strategy which is confusing them. If that's the case then it can be fixed and has to be fixed soon. 2nd in purely from batsman pov that Vijay has certainly lost his defence with age and is unable to compensate that with shots. There isn't much solution for this scenario, he has to call it a day.

 

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But Dhawan hasn't looked solid right through the red-ball leg of this tour, bagging a pair in the warm-up match, getting out twice to loose drives at Edgbaston, and looking vulnerable even in the net sessions at Lord's - where he was dropped - playing with hard hands and edging frequently.

If Dhawan isn't looking good even in nets, then doubt he will get many chances.

 

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In the first innings at Lord's, Rahul got a jaffa from Anderson. On Sunday morning, he overbalanced while playing forward and across the line, a risky idea given Anderson was bowling from the Pavilion End, from where the Lord's slope tends to aid the incoming delivery. Anderson's inswinger duly trapped him plumb in front.

Rahul understood his mistake and shook his head at Pujara, who might have suggested going for a review. In the first innings Rahul had stood outside the crease, as he had done at Edgbaston following Kohli's example to negate the swing. However, on Sunday, Rahul stood back in his crease. He spent close to half an hour at the crease in both innings, but struggled to find his footing and returned disappointed.

So, Rahul is trying to figure out what will work. These are the scenarios which can be fixed by

1. A good batting consultant - which India don't have

2. Ample practice - which they aren't doing

 

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Of all the Indian batsman at Lord's, Pujara showed the most composure. He faced the most balls and spent the most minutes at the crease of all of India's batsmen, having replaced Dhawan. Pujara put aside the farcical run out in the first innings and started afresh on Sunday. Anderson tested his patience and his technique by probing the off-stump line while seaming the odd delivery back in.

He has survived most number of deliveries after Kohli and looks like only one who can spend 2 hours at the crease. Although India need better batting from him, but in current scenario it seems he is the best option we have. A batsman who can actually give them hope of seeing the old ball.

 

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Then there is Rahane, India's vice-captain. Like Kohli, Rahane spoke about conquering the situations in the mind after India were bundled out for 107 in the first innings. Yet, on Sunday, when confronted with the challenge of arresting a collapse after India were 13 for 2, Rahane showed frail technique against the moving ball once again. Rahane's highest score so far in this series is 18. In four innings he has edged three times to the slips and once to keeper Johnny Bairstow. It makes for disheartening reading, given he was India's most consistent batsman on their previous cycle of overseas tours from December 2013 to January 2015.

He has been worst of all so far imo.

 

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Given that only one has been an ever-present, critics have blamed Kohli and Shastri for chopping and changing constantly and failing to provide their players any security. Kohli has made at least one change in each of his 37 Tests as captain. It is a fair point. It is important that the team management has a clear chat with the players to figure out what is troubling them.

So everything could be contributing to it

1. Insecurity

2. Uncertainity/lack of clarity

3. Lack of practice

4. Not enough guidance

 

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Summarising the batting woes, Kohli suggested the issue was more mental than technical. "I don't see any technical deficiency," Kohli said after the innings defeat at Lord's, his worst as a captain. "If a batsman is clear in the head and he's clear about the plans he's taking, then if the ball does something off the pitch, you're able to counter it."

 

The batsmen, Kohli stressed, need to stop clouding their minds with scenarios that don't exist. "The only thing that can work and which does work is being very clear and blank in your head, and then reacting to what the ball is doing rather than expecting it to do something. 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/24363213/sans-virat-kohli-where-india-backbone

[rkt.india]

Lot of premeditation, lack of practice and indecisiveness.  Why cant they try to find a solution where they can leave anything outside off stump and just play for incoming deliveries.

[Laaloo]

I read on icf they are afraid of Kohli. It's not that pujara was never good overseas, or rahane rarely does anything the whole series apart from a few innings, or that murlk Vijay is done or Karthik was never good enough.

[R!TTER]

Just now, Laaloo said:

I read on icf they are afraid of Kohli. It's not that pujara was never good overseas, or rahane rarely does anything the whole series apart from a few innings, or that murlk Vijay is done or Karthik was never good enough.

Just on ICF, what about the other experts? Job security is paramount in any organisation where performance matters, this goes 2x for sports since athletes have really short shelf life.

[Samcric]

5 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Lot of premeditation, lack of practice and indecisiveness.  Why cant they try to find a solution where they can leave anything outside off stump and just play for incoming deliveries.

More than the swing, it is the late swing which is becoming a problem. And when batsmen have issues playing late swing, it means they are either not watching the ball till late or trying to play too square. A lot of this is about preparation. Our batting coach does not have enough experience in such conditions. There is a reason Kohli went to Tendulkar after 2014 England series. He didn't go to a Bangar or shivsundar das. We need a coach who has done it at the highest level. There are severe technical deficiencies shown by the batsmen unlike what Virat has been claiming. 

[velu]

watched some highlights ..

 

our batsmen might have done better if they tried "kiki challenge" when facing anderson & co instead of playing them 

Edited August 14, 2018 by velu

[The Dark Horse]

26 minutes ago, velu said:

watched some highlights ..

 

our batsmen might have done better if they tried "kiki challenge" when facing anderson & co instead of playing them 

They had their own "hihi challenge" after dropping a catch or getting out

Edited August 14, 2018 by The Dark Horse

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Samcric said:

More than the swing, it is the late swing which is becoming a problem. And when batsmen have issues playing late swing, it means they are either not watching the ball till late or trying to play too square. A lot of this is about preparation. Our batting coach does not have enough experience in such conditions. There is a reason Kohli went to Tendulkar after 2014 England series. He didn't go to a Bangar or shivsundar das. We need a coach who has done it at the highest level. There are severe technical deficiencies shown by the batsmen unlike what Virat has been claiming. 

No one can watch the ball till late.  Try catching a ball thrown at speed, people cannot even keep track of the ball till late.  our eyes cannot move as fast.  have seen fielders taking high catches, most of them are looking at somewhere else when ball hits their palms as ball travels quicker than we can move our eyes, quicker than our reflexes.  Batting is all about assumption against fast bowlers, assumption about the line and length and then play according to that, playing to the preset path as the ball leaves the hand.  This is the reason late swing is so difficult to negotiate.  There is no reaction time to watch the ball till late when ball is pitched fuller and swings late and easier to negotiate when ball is pitched shorter.  One thing they can do is play closer to the body and let the ball come to them instead of going towards the ball.  Even this becomes difficult when ball swings late because batsman has to come on to the front foot and they are usually late on it.

[beetle]

Backbone is also hurt now.

[express bowling]

31 minutes ago, Samcric said:

More than the swing, it is the late swing which is becoming a problem. And when batsmen have issues playing late swing, it means they are either not watching the ball till late or trying to play too square. A lot of this is about preparation. Our batting coach does not have enough experience in such conditions. There is a reason Kohli went to Tendulkar after 2014 England series. He didn't go to a Bangar or shivsundar das. We need a coach who has done it at the highest level. There are severe technical deficiencies shown by the batsmen unlike what Virat has been claiming. 

 

Most of our batsmen are not in form and the ball is swinging late.  I don't know why the batsmen are not trying to play in the " V " almost always till the time they are fully set.  So many shots ( even defensive pushes  ) are being tried square of cover and square of mid-wicket.

 

Not enough clearly-outside-the-off-stump deliveries are being left alone.

 

And our batters are defending with hard hands too, barring Kohli.

 

Seems like the batters are not putting in enough thought to get even the basics right in moving conditions ... and there is no one to guide them.

[Samcric]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

No one can watch the ball till late.  Try catching a ball thrown at speed, people cannot even keep track of the ball till late.  our eyes cannot move as fast.  have seen fielders taking high catches, most of them are looking at somewhere else when ball hits their palms as ball travels quicker than we can move our eyes, quicker than our reflexes.  Batting is all about assumption against fast bowlers, assumption about the line and length and then play according to that, playing to the preset path as the ball leaves the hand.  This is the reason late swing is so difficult to negotiate.  There is no reaction time to watch the ball till late when ball is pitched fuller and swings late and easier to negotiate when ball is pitched shorter.  One thing they can do is play closer to the body and let the ball come to them instead of going towards the ball.  Even this becomes difficult when ball swings late because batsman has to come on to the front foot and they are usually late on it.

Watching the ball closely, playing as late as possible and playing under your eyes are basics. Gives you as good of a chance to see as much as possible. Trying to watch closely and making small adjustments - as much as possible. No one can see the ball in slo-mo or something. That's obviously not what I meant. Small reactions like not following the ball swinging out (Rahul 1st inn) but try to follow when it swings in (2nd inn). These are basics really in terms of opening against swing bowling. Play close to the body and under the eye not in front. These are mistakes even club cricketers like us can point out. Again, begs the question of how much of this struggle is mental and how much is technical and why do we need to settle for a batting coach like Bangar. It has been 5 away test matches now. Surely, batting coach needs to take some accountability for these failures? Or is it all free money? 

[Laaloo]

How can we expect to win when the rest of the top order are not doing anything?

[Trichromatic]

10 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Most of our batsmen are not in form and the ball is swinging late.  I don't know why the batsmen are not trying to play in the " V " almost always till the time they are fully set.  So many shots ( even defensive pushes  ) are being tried square of cover and square of mid-wicket.

 

Not enough clearly-outside-the-off-stump deliveries are being left alone.

 

And our batters are defending with hard hands too, barring Kohli.

 

Seems like the batters are not putting in enough thought to get even the basics right in moving conditions ... and there is no one to guide them.

Maybe they are trying different things and still failing. 

 

Like Rahul's case, after first inning dismissal someone needed him to give confidence that whatever he did was right and put behind the unplayable delivery. Usually it's senior batsman or coach who does that. 

 

But there is no one.

[Samcric]

6 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Maybe they are trying different things and still failing. 

 

Like Rahul's case, after first inning dismissal someone needed him to give confidence that whatever he did was right and put behind the unplayable delivery. Usually it's senior batsman or coach who does that. 

 

But there is no one.

But what he did was technically deficient. No top quality opener hangs out bat away from the body chasing an away-swinger tentatively. 

 

It will be easier for us to first accept that guys like Rahul, Vijay, Rahane have played badly in terms of technique. We are too hung up on the wrongs done by Kohli and how Shashtri enjoys his drinks that we can't even criticize the atrocious shots played by batsmen. I mean ffs these are supposed to be the top 5-6 batsmen in a country of a billion. Are they so fragile mentally? At least we can expect the openers to play swinging balls with some confidence and correctness. Sorry, problem with batting right now is technical not mental. Just pray we get bright sunshine in remaining matches else we will roll over for a 100 or less every single time. 

 

[express bowling]

7 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Maybe they are trying different things and still failing. 

 

Like Rahul's case, after first inning dismissal someone needed him to give confidence that whatever he did was right and put behind the unplayable delivery. Usually it's senior batsman or coach who does that. 

 

But there is no one.

 

But it is not just a matter of confidence in the case of these batters.

 

Apart from Kohli, Ashwin and Pandya ... none of the others have tried to adapt their techniques to counter the swinging ball. And even these guys have issues. 

 

Playing the ball as late as possible,  playing the ball under your eyes, not playing away from your body, not dabbing at deliveries which are clearly not hitting the stumps like a bouncing ball or a wide ball, playing the ball in the " V " before getting set,  defending with soft hands etc.  ...  are technical pointers which should be followed. But are not being followed by most.

 

These batters need technical guidance too in swinging conditions, apart from morale boosting.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by express bowling

[express bowling]

15 minutes ago, Samcric said:

But what he did was technically deficient. No top quality opener hangs out bat away from the body chasing an away-swinger tentatively. 

 

It will be easier for us to first accept that guys like Rahul, Vijay, Rahane have played badly in terms of technique. We are too hung up on the wrongs done by Kohli and how Shashtri enjoys his drinks that we can't even criticize the atrocious shots played by batsmen. I mean ffs these are supposed to be the top 5-6 batsmen in a country of a billion. Are they so fragile mentally? At least we can expect the openers to play swinging balls with some confidence and correctness. Sorry, problem with batting right now is technical not mental. Just pray we get bright sunshine in remaining matches else we will roll over for a 100 or less every single time. 

 

 

Agree completely.

 

 

[Trichromatic]

18 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

But it is not just a matter of confidence in the case of these batters.

 

Apart from Kohli, Ashwin and Pandya ... none of the others have tried to adapt their techniques to counter the swinging ball. And even these guys have issues. 

 

Playing the ball as late as possible,  playing the ball under your eyes, not playing away from your body, not dabbing at deliveries which are clearly not hitting the stumps like a bouncing ball or a wide ball, playing the ball in the " V " before getting set,  defending with soft hands etc.  ...  are technical pointers which should be followed. But are not being followed by most.

 

These batters need technical guidance too in swinging conditions, apart from morale boosting.

 

 

No batsman in world, no matter how great he is can do anything without practice and proper guidance. People say coaches can't teach you at that level. 

 

They can't fix Suresh Raina for that, but no guidance or practice would have ruined even Dravid. Technically deficient players can't implement anything, but Superior ones know lot of things without an idea what to follow. In case they follow right thing, and it fails then they need someone to tell them to repeat it in future without any fear.

 

Take Mumbai 2004 Aus test for ex, bowlers won't have won that match. Not because they weren't capable, but because they might not have idea about what to do. Kumble told them to just bowl at higher speed at stumps without trying to turn the ball as pitch would have done rest. They followed that and it worked. This guidance Ashwin and co missed in 2012 and couldn't do well on turners.

[express bowling]

32 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

No batsman in world, no matter how great he is can do anything without practice and proper guidance. People say coaches can't teach you at that level. 

 

They can't fix Suresh Raina for that, but no guidance or practice would have ruined even Dravid. Technically deficient players can't implement anything, but Superior ones know lot of things without an idea what to follow. In case they follow right thing, and it fails then they need someone to tell them to repeat it in future without any fear.

 

Take Mumbai 2004 Aus test for ex, bowlers won't have won that match. Not because they weren't capable, but because they might not have idea about what to do. Kumble told them to just bowl at higher speed at stumps without trying to turn the ball as pitch would have done rest. They followed that and it worked. This guidance Ashwin and co missed in 2012 and couldn't do well on turners.

 

Dravid was supposed to be the overseas batting consultant.   This was blocked by Shastri.  

 

But young batters used to run to top retired players when they were in trouble. Even Kohli took tips from Tendulkar after his 2014 debacle in England.

 

Why did Rahul, Pujara, Vijay etc. not do the same after their SA debacle  ?

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

  

Dravid was supposed to be the overseas batting consultant.   This was blocked by Shastri.  

 

But young batters used to run to top retired players when they were in trouble. Even Kohli took tips from Tendulkar after his 2014 debacle in England.

  

Why did Rahul, Pujara, Vijay etc. not do the same after their SA debacle  ?

God knows what's happening with this team, but this turning out to be another CT17 moment for this team. Only difference is that this will go longer and create greater divide.

[rtmohanlal]

On 8/15/2018 at 4:50 AM, Laaloo said:

How can we expect to win when the rest of the top order are not doing anything?

the most  important fault liies with this data. On one end there is Kohli who is such an all round player who is built for almost  all conditions and for  each format and for every match situation. On the other side  there are  5  non multi dimensional wastes ,who each are not even 1/5th of Kohli  in every sense. Definitely the problem is not with the first class system  because it could create

a batsman of Kohli's calibre, But the problem is with the team management (selectors,captain & coach) who does not even bother to try the trial and error method to find out multidimensional  batsmen who are atleast close to Kohli in calibre. Instead they got satisfied with Dhawan,Pujara,Rohit,Vijay etc who are just one dimensional hacks( Pujara & Vijay are not even that, they are way lower than  that ).