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Has Ashwin finally closed the case for playing spinners in tests in SENA?

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unless of ATG level (Warne, Murali, Chandra, etc. ) or conditions are relatively spin friendly or the spinner is in excellent form .... Discuss 

 

PS also consider that, unlike in the past, our pace bowling is strong 

Edited by zen

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Ashwin is 32 he can still comeback. Remember Kumble was not good till 2003, almost 10 yrs after his debut. 

 

Having said that, for now he has become the second spinner. Jadeja should get preference in 5th test and in Australia series

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14 minutes ago, Sachinism said:

OPs argument is ridiculous. Just because Ashwin is useless spinners shouldn't be played.

Watch Moeen give our batsmen nightmares

Moeen playing at home. Same Moeen was useless in aus and wasn't great in India.

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Not going to blame Ashwin

His record in England is on par with other visiting spinners from other teams, or even better

 

But felt he could have adjusted his pace and length quicker considering his experience

 

if there is any blame, has to be the batsmen, bunch of amateurs 

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1 minute ago, chewy said:

Not going to blame Ashwin

His record in England is on par with other visiting spinners from other teams, or even better

 

But felt he could have adjusted his pace and length quicker considering his experience

 

if there is any blame, has to be the batsmen, bunch of amateurs 

Despite achieving high fitness standards, even Imran Nazir can concentrate longer on the crease than some of these guys.

 

The game has gone from skill based to power/fitness based, I guess that has impacted the traditional skills of a batsman.

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1 minute ago, Brainfade said:

Didn't he recently take 4/60 odd in England and we were all going gaga? Or is my mind playing tricks? Or didn't we like not *need* it then?

 

Fickle fans 

that is considered an outlier performance :facepalm:

 

bellcurve.png?w=300&h=148

 

 

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39 minutes ago, zen said:

Ashwin took Cook's wkt so the comment. Even a run out will generate a comment 

 

This is more of a strategic thread .... 

The whole thread is glowing. With a couple of posters here, we either raise someone to an Atg or drop them from the team. Jazbaati.

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Just now, Brainfade said:

The whole thread is glowing. With a couple of posters here, we either raise someone to an Atg or drop them from the team. Jazbaati.

So? .... why don't you comment on the merits and demerits looking at the patterns? 

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Pattern nterpretation may vary depending on whether or not the guy is hurt. While in one case one may say that the  7fer test meant he had figured Sena bowling out but got hurt;  in the other case the 7fer test would be an aberration.

 

It's just a bit extreme to say drop him and/or don't take spinners at all based on today's lack of effectiveness. What if he takes 2 fifers in the next test? Will we turn back (no pun intended) to the other side? 

 

Body of work can be considered after more data are in. Your bell curve would be stronger.

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2 hours ago, Brainfade said:

Pattern nterpretation may vary depending on whether or not the guy is hurt. While in one case one may say that the  7fer test meant he had figured Sena bowling out but got hurt;  in the other case the 7fer test would be an aberration.

 

It's just a bit extreme to say drop him and/or don't take spinners at all based on today's lack of effectiveness. What if he takes 2 fifers in the next test? Will we turn back (no pun intended) to the other side? 

 

Body of work can be considered after more data are in. Your bell curve would be stronger.

This is not about the player but do we need ineffective spinners playing tests in SENA unless of course the exceptions as laid out in the OP 

 

Note that I have supported Ashwin as he can use the new ball too, offering versatility .... But this was a shockingly bad performance when he needed to put his hand up. I don’t see other spinners who are currently good enough to do the job in typical SENA conditions hence the thread 

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7 hours ago, chewy said:

Not going to blame Ashwin

His record in England is on par with other visiting spinners from other teams, or even better

 

But felt he could have adjusted his pace and length quicker considering his experience

 

if there is any blame, has to be the batsmen, bunch of amateurs 

I remember Yasir shah winning tests on these pitches. Infact Graeme Swann too has done well. We have got to concede that Ashwin in turning overseas pitches cannot meet the demands and move on.

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3 hours ago, zen said:

This is not about the player but do we need ineffective spinners playing tests in SENA unless of course the exceptions as laid out in the OP 

 

Note that I have supported Ashwin as he can use the new ball too, offering versatility .... But this was a shockingly bad performance when he needed to put his hand up. I don’t see other spinners who are currently good enough to do the job in typical SENA conditions hence the thread 

Think it is the pressure. After Moeen’s perfomance, he did not cope well with expectations. 

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So, it's clear now that Ashwin was carrying a groin injury in Test 4.  You can argue the merits of playing playing an injured player.  But, one cannot question Ashwin's skill nor can one make a case for never playing a spinner in SENA. 

 

Now if one said "Never play an injured spinner,"  ... completely agree.  

 

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/india-vs-england-team-management-ties-itself-in-knots-over-ashwin-fitness/story-G2TMvhxiJleIpcIUlojY9K.html

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Brainfade said:

So, it's clear now that Ashwin was carrying a groin injury in Test 4.  You can argue the merits of playing playing an injured player.  But, one cannot question Ashwin's skill nor can one make a case for never playing a spinner in SENA. 

 

Now if one said "Never play an injured spinner,"  ... completely agree.  

 

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/india-vs-england-team-management-ties-itself-in-knots-over-ashwin-fitness/story-G2TMvhxiJleIpcIUlojY9K.html

 

 

Clueless management! They messed up Bhuvi first by playing him for useless ODI match, and now playing Ashwin where a decent fit spinner would have won the game. Fire everyone! From Coaches/Manager/Physio. A Waterboy would be able to do better job than staff.

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3 minutes ago, wanted_desi said:

Clueless management! They messed up Bhuvi first by playing him for useless ODI match, and now playing Ashwin where a decent fit spinner would have won the game. Fire everyone! From Coaches/Manager/Physio. A Waterboy would be able to do better job than staff.

Still can't fathom why they would do it.  Sometimes you got to protect the competitive player from himself.

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17 minutes ago, Brainfade said:

So, it's clear now that Ashwin was carrying a groin injury in Test 4.  You can argue the merits of playing playing an injured player.  But, one cannot question Ashwin's skill nor can one make a case for never playing a spinner in SENA. 

 

Now if one said "Never play an injured spinner,"  ... completely agree.  

 

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/india-vs-england-team-management-ties-itself-in-knots-over-ashwin-fitness/story-G2TMvhxiJleIpcIUlojY9K.html

 

 

read the OP

 

"unless of ATG level (Warne, Murali, Chandra, etc. ) or conditions are relatively spin friendly or the spinner is in excellent form .... Discuss 

 

PS also consider that, unlike in the past, our pace bowling is strong"

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16 minutes ago, zen said:

read the OP

 

"unless of ATG level (Warne, Murali, Chandra, etc. ) or conditions are relatively spin friendly or the spinner is in excellent form .... Discuss 

 

PS also consider that, unlike in the past, our pace bowling is strong"

Ashwin was in good form; he'd just taken 7 wkts in a test match in the same series.  He is our premier matchwinner.  If he's 100% fit, and in good form, he walks in.  The problem is he wasn't 100% fit.  Big blunder by mgmt.  

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3 minutes ago, Brainfade said:

Ashwin was in good form; he'd just taken 7 wkts in a test match in the same series.  He is our premier matchwinner.  If he's 100% fit, and in good form, he walks in.  The problem is he wasn't 100% fit.  Big blunder by mgmt.  

He had 8 days before the test and could have informed the management so can't hide behind the fitness .... it was a bad performance 

 

PS I like him as a player though 

Edited by zen

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5 hours ago, zen said:

He had 8 days before the test and could have informed the management so can't hide behind the fitness .... it was a bad performance 

 

PS I like him as a player though 

Not the first time a player played with a niggle..so not entirely Ashwin's fault.

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7 hours ago, wanted_desi said:

Clueless management! They messed up Bhuvi first by playing him for useless ODI match, and now playing Ashwin where a decent fit spinner would have won the game. Fire everyone! From Coaches/Manager/Physio. A Waterboy would be able to do better job than staff.

It's player's fault, not management. 

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2 hours ago, The Dark Horse said:

Not the first time a player played with a niggle..so not entirely Ashwin's fault.

It's Ashwin's fault. if he was injured, he should not have played.

Edited by rkt.india

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I am not sure our spinners know how tweaking the ball with more revs is important in England. Floating the ball up is easier to negotiate. You need a strong pivot. Only those who do that get some purchase. Swann, Lyon, Ali, Murali. Aggressive tweaking ability is needed with the duke ball. High time we look for a spinner who can spin the ball anywhere sharply. Even Jaddu is more a darter than a tweaker. Any under 19 prospect? How about Gautam? He could strike as well.  Can he tweak?

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24 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

I am not sure our spinners know how tweaking the ball with more revs is important in England. Floating the ball up is easier to negotiate. You need a strong pivot. Only those who do that get some purchase. Swann, Lyon, Ali, Murali. Aggressive tweaking ability is needed with the duke ball. High time we look for a spinner who can spin the ball anywhere sharply. Even Jaddu is more a darter than a tweaker. Any under 19 prospect? How about Gautam? He could strike as well.  Can he tweak?

Its about hitting right areas even you are not tweaking the ball. Jadeja did that today. Ashwin did not in last game. He was all over the place.  You dont need to tweak a lot spin the ball from the rough like Moeen and Lyon does.  Its their flight that is different to Ashwin.  Ashwin isnt a flight bowler.  Moeen and Lyon beat the batsmen through their trajectory more than just turn.

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12 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Its about hitting right areas even you are not tweaking the ball. Jadeja did that today. Ashwin did not in last game. He was all over the place.  You dont need to tweak a lot spin the ball from the rough like Moeen and Lyon does.  Its their flight that is different to Ashwin.  Ashwin isnt a flight bowler.  Moeen and Lyon beat the batsmen through their trajectory more than just turn.

If you want to take wickets you need to tweak. Otherwise you will end up bowling lot of overs and doing nothing. Moeen Ali doesn't have any magic deliveries. HE just aggressively tweaks, spins.  Overspin, drift. Ashwin relies on ball helping him rather him helping the ball especially when it is not SG ball.

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1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

It's Ashwin's fault. if he was injured, he should not have played.

Same thing happened with Bumrah, Bhuvi, Saha...how is the management not responsible? He was even sent to bat when they were leading comfortably..Agree Ashwin has prime responsibility....Why is there a coach, support staff and physios if they can't tell him not to play?

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13 minutes ago, The Dark Horse said:

Same thing happened with Bumrah, Bhuvi, Saha...how is the management not responsible? He was even sent to bat when they were leading comfortably..Agree Ashwin has prime responsibility....Why is there a coach, support staff and physios if they can't tell him not to play?

Bumrah got injured during the game so there was nothing in Bumrah's case.  it is the mistake of individual player when they play despite not feeling fit.  A player needs to tell the management that he is not fit to play. How would management know otherwise if he is fit or not.  Anyway, Ashwin did not show any signs of injury while in the field or while batting.

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18 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

If you want to take wickets you need to tweak. Otherwise you will end up bowling lot of overs and doing nothing. Moeen Ali doesn't have any magic deliveries. HE just aggressively tweaks, spins.  Overspin, drift. Ashwin relies on ball helping him rather him helping the ball especially when it is not SG ball.

No, yes tweaking matters when pitch is less helpful but when there is rough, you just need to put the ball in that rough patch accurately and consistently and the rough does it for you even if you are not tweaking it, which is what Moeen did.

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9 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Bumrah got injured during the game so there was nothing in Bumrah's case.  it is the mistake of individual player when they play despite not feeling fit.  A player needs to tell the management that he is not fit to play. How would management know otherwise if he is fit or not.  Anyway, Ashwin did not show any signs of injury while in the field or while batting.

Don't agree about that..but yes the player has the main responsibility.

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22 minutes ago, The Dark Horse said:

Don't agree about that..but yes the player has the main responsibility.

Especially the injuries which are not visible, like muscle injuries.  A player will have to tell the captain whether that injury is affecting him or not.  Same was the case with BK.  How would team management know he is still not fit.  He bowled in the nets and when he looked fit while bowling in the nets, they played him.  It is not visible until a player tells that he still has it.  And it is not the first time such a thing has happened in Indian cricket.  Players do hide their injuries and play.  They don't want other players to come in and take their chances.    

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Indian spinners in SENA countries in the last 30 years.

 

No one has done well.

 

Mobile users please view in landscape mode.

 

 

 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
A Kumble 1990-2008 35 67 1886.1 394 5224 141 8/141 12/279 37.04 2.76 80.2 5 1 investigate this query
Harbhajan Singh 1998-2011 19 34 799.2 108 2476 62 7/120 7/102 39.93 3.09 77.3 3 0 investigate this query
RA Jadeja 2013-2018 8 13 331.2 57 888 20 6/138 6/154 44.40 2.68 99.4 1 0 investigate this query
R Ashwin 2011-2018 15 25 633.2 102 1933 42 4/62 7/121 46.02 3.05 90.4 0 0 investigate this query
SLV Raju 1990-1996 10 17 429.0 124 936 20 3/11 5/132 46.80 2.18 128.7 0 0 investigate this query
SR Tendulkar 1990-2012 63 51 226.5 22 856 18 2/7 2/15 47.55 3.77 75.6 0 0 investigate this query
ND Hirwani 1990-1990 6 10 322.0 69 895 15 4/174 5/226 59.66 2.77 128.8 0 0 investigate this query
 

 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=08+Sep+2018;spanmin1=08+Sep+1988;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

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Spinners in SENA countries in the last 30 years

 

Mobile users please view in landscape mode.

 

 

Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM AveAscending Econ SR 5 10  
SK Warne (AUS) 1993-2006 43 84 2158.3 629 5358 239 7/165 12/246 22.41 2.48 54.1 11 3 investigate this query
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL) 1995-2007 23 36 1262.4 288 3337 125 9/65 16/220 26.69 2.64 60.6 10 5 investigate this query
KA Maharaj (SA) 2016-2017 9 16 343.0 72 977 36 6/40 8/87 27.13 2.84 57.1 2 0 investigate this query
Mushtaq Ahmed (PAK) 1990-2001 19 31 859.2 193 2361 84 7/56 10/171 28.10 2.74 61.3 6 1 investigate this query
TBA May (AUS) 1993-1994 6 12 339.0 106 761 25 5/89 7/121 30.44 2.24 81.3 1 0 investigate this query
Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH) 2008-2017 8 12 271.1 32 870 28 6/99 6/99 31.07 3.20 58.1 3 0 investigate this query
NM Lyon (AUS) 2011-2018 19 36 686.1 142 2094 63 5/130 7/97 33.23 3.05 65.3 1 0 investigate this query
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK) 1995-2003 11 17 503.1 116 1375 40 6/46 8/72 34.37 2.73 75.4 1 0 investigate this query
A Kumble (INDIA) 1990-2008 35 67 1886.1 394 5224 141 8/141 12/279 37.04 2.76 80.2 5 1 investigate this query
MN Hart (NZ) 1994-1995 6 10 306.1 88 710 19 5/77 8/134 37.36 2.31 96.6 1 0 investigate this query
CH Gayle (WI) 2000-2009 26 30 341.5 48 1019 27 5/34 6/81 37.74 2.98 75.9 1 0 investigate this query
PCR Tufnell (ENG) 1990-2000 17 30 837.3 241 1829 48 7/47 11/147 38.10 2.18 104.6 2 1 investigate this query
PR Adams (SA) 1998-2004 12 21 462.0 128 1147 30 4/63 5/119 38.23 2.48 92.4 0 0 investigate this query
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ) 1997-2011 26 39 1012.5 212 2711 70 6/87 8/229 38.72 2.67 86.8 5 0 investigate this query
Danish Kaneria (PAK) 2003-2010 17 33 863.1 134 2682 69 7/168 8/204 38.86 3.10 75.0 4 0 investigate this query
Saeed Ajmal (PAK) 2009-2013 8 14 379.2 60 1058 27 6/96 10/147 39.18 2.78 84.2 2 1 investigate this query
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA) 1998-2011 19 34 799.2 108 2476 62 7/120 7/102 39.93 3.09 77.3 3 0 investigate this query
PL Harris (SA) 2008-2009 7 12 256.0 42 725 18 3/84 5/155 40.27 2.83 85.3 0 0 investigate this query
GP Swann (ENG) 2009-2013 12 23 571.3 89 1816 43 5/54 9/164 42.23 3.17 79.7 3 0 investigate this query
HMRKB Herath (SL) 2005-2017 21 35 831.0 115 2437 57 5/79 9/128 42.75 2.93 87.4 2 0 investigate this query
AF Giles (ENG) 2002-2006 11 20 375.1 52 1138 26 4/101 6/191 43.76 3.03 86.5 0 0 investigate this query
RA Jadeja (INDIA) 2013-2018 8 13 331.2 57 888 20 6/138 6/154 44.40 2.68 99.4 1 0 investigate this query
MS Panesar (ENG) 2006-2013 11 19 413.1 94 1318 29 6/126 8/237 45.44 3.18 85.4 2 0 investigate this query
R Ashwin (INDIA) 2011-2018 15 25 633.2 102 1933 42 4/62 7/121 46.02 3.05 90.4 0 0 investigate this query
SLV Raju (INDIA) 1990-1996 10 17 429.0 124 936 20 3/11 5/132 46.80 2.18 128.7 0 0 investigate this query
SR Tendulkar (INDIA) 1990-2012 63 51 226.5 22 856 18 2/7 2/15 47.55 3.77 75.6 0 0 investigate this query
SJ Benn (WI) 2008-2015 9 13 400.0 76 1130 22 5/155 5/206 51.36 2.82 109.0 1 0 investigate this query
MD Craig (NZ) 2015-2015 5 10 205.5 34 807 15 3/73 5/121 53.80 3.92 82.3 0 0 investigate this query
Yasir Shah (PAK) 2016-2017 8 15 399.4 46 1507 27 6/72 10/141 55.81 3.77 88.8 2 1 investigate this query
CL Hooper (WI) 1988-1999 29 42 640.4 133 1611 28 4/75 5/138 57.53 2.51 137.2 0 0 investigate this query
ND Hirwani (INDIA) 1990-1990 6 10 322.0 69 895 15 4/174 5/226 59.66 2.77 128.8 0 0 investigate this query
MM Ali (ENG) 2015-2018 10 15 347.2 66 1119 15 4/69 7/116 74.60 3.22 138.9 0 0 investigate this query
 

 

 

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=15;qualval1=wickets;spanmax2=08+Sep+2018;spanmin2=08+Sep+1988;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling

Edited by express bowling

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Ball was turning at edgbaston and in the 2nd inning at rosebowl and spinners always have that extra hype due to their performance in home conditions also ind pacers over the yrs have not bowled very well in sena countries, so ppl dont have a lot of confidence in them ,they have to become more consistent and reliable .

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2 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

Ball was turning at edgbaston and in the 2nd inning at rosebowl and spinners always have that extra hype due to their performance in home conditions also ind pacers over the yrs have not bowled very well in sena countries, so ppl dont have a lot of confidence in them ,they have to become more consistent and reliable .

Edgbaston had something for both pace and spin.

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