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Indian Batsmen vs Spin

Which group do you think is better vs spin   

15 members have voted

  1. 1. Oldies or Noobs

    • Noobs
      3
    • Oldies
      12


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Another poster mentioned our play vs spin, so I wanted to look through our current and past players to see what their averages vs spin are/were (based off of dismissal data)

 

M. Vijay

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/237095.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 2008-2018 67 8 19 27 0 13 0 0 0 0 25.55 7 view dismissals
spin bowler 2009-2018 31 2 12 4 4 9 0 0 0 0 69.74 0 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 2014-2016 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 15.50 0 view dismissals

 

KL Rahul

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/422108.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 2014-2018 31 10 8 9 0 4 0 0 0 0 27.41 4 view dismissals
spin bowler 2014-2017 13 1 9 1 0 2 0 0 0 0 51.30 0 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 2017-2017 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 57.00 0 view dismissals

 

S Dhawan

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28235.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 2013-2018 34 5 17 9 0 3 0 0 0 0 33.32 4 view dismissals
spin bowler 2013-2018 21 1 12 1 2 5 0 0 0 0 53.95 0 view dismissals

 

V Kohli

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 2011-2018 71 4 33 19 0 15 0 0 0 0 40.53 6 view dismissals
spin bowler 2011-2018 39 3 22 3 0 10 1 0 0 0 67.71 0 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 2012-2012 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 22.00 0 view dismissals

 

C Pujara

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/32540.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 2010-2018 54 13 17 17 0 7 0 0 0 0 40.27 2 view dismissals
spin bowler 2010-2018 34 7 18 2 1 6 0 0 0 0 50.85 0 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 2012-2018 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 0 14.14 2 view dismissals

 

A Rahane

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/277916.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 2013-2018 37 2 17 10 0 8 0 0 0 0 33.51 2 view dismissals
spin bowler 2013-2018 37 7 21 1 3 5 0 0 0 0 35.43 3 view dismissals

 

MS Dhoni

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 2006-2014 88 9 40 30 0 9 0 0 0 0 27.81 8 view dismissals
spin bowler 2005-2014 34 6 22 1 3 2 0 0 0 0 37.47 2 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 2006-2014 6 0 0 1 0 1 0 4 0 0 53.33 0

 

S Ganguly 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28779.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 1996-2008 111 19 55 23 0 14 0 0 0 0 34.38 10 view dismissals
spin bowler 1996-2008 56 7 30 6 4 9 0 0 0 0 44.46 3 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 2001-2004 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 21.25 0 view dismissals

 

V Sehwag

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35263.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 2001-2013 123 21 58 27 0 17 0 0 0 0 38.21 15 view dismissals
spin bowler 2002-2013 42 9 24 2 4 3 0 0 0 0 74.09 1 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 2001-2012 9 1 0 1 1 1 0 5 0 0 46.22 0

 

G Gambhir

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28763.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 2004-2016 70 13 20 21 0 16 0 0 0 0 33.85 7 view dismissals
spin bowler 2004-2016 25 2 11 2 1 9 0 0 0 0 64.12 0 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 2004-2014 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 0 26.00 0 view dismissals

 

VVS Laxman

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30750.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 1996-2012 128 35 52 28 0 12 1 0 0 0 32.00 14 view dismissals
spin bowler 1996-2012 54 4 30 6 5 9 0 0 0 0 40.24 0 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 2001-2011 9 0 1 1 0 0 0 7 0 0 39.11 0

 

R Dravid

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28114.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 1996-2012 167 43 49 53 0 22 0 0 0 0 39.65 6 view dismissals
spin bowler 1996-2011 69 12 36 10 1 10 0 0 0 0 53.43 1 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 1999-2011 18 0 2 1 0 2 0 13 0 0 58.16 1 view dismissals

 

SR Tendulkar

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 1989-2013 191 45 71 36 0 39 0 0 0 0 42.66 12 view dismissals
spin bowler 1989-2013 92 9 54 5 1 23 0 0 0 0 50.02 2 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 1989-2013 13 0 2 1 0 1 0 9 0 0 26.46 0

 

 

Total by Avg vs Spin

 

Over 70

Sehwag

 

Over 60

Gambhir

Kohli

Vijay

 

Over 50

Tendulkar

Dravid

Pujara

Dhawan

Rahul

 

Over 40

Laxman

Ganguly

 

Over 30

Rahane

Dhoni

 

Below 30

None

 

So, the data is interesting. What do you guys think? Do the averages vs spin confirm or defy your expectations? 

 

Which group do you think is/was better vs spin, our current batsmen or our former batsmen?

Edited by Tibarn

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After a quick glance, 

  • From the current lot, only Kohli and Pujara have done well against both type of bowlers 
  • Former batsmen played ATG spinners such as Warne and Murali. Even Saqlain, Swann, etc.,  were pretty good too 
  • When you throw someone like Sehwag in to the mix, it automatically tilts the balance in favor of former batsmen 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, zen said:

After a quick glance, 

  • From the current lot, only Kohli and Pujara have done well against both type of bowlers 
  • Former batsmen played ATG spinners such as Warne and Murali. Even Saqlain, Swann, etc.,  were pretty good too 
  • When you throw someone like Sehwag in to the mix, it automatically tilts the balance in favor of former batsmen 

 

 

You know why coz sehwag never let spin dictate terms they were scared of him, sehwag would have smashed Ali to oblivion, the thing is none of our current bats barring Kohli and pujara have decisive footwork and look for strike rotation sums up the whole problem, sehwag was genius in this regard 

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People are underrating our current lot I think.

 

Vijay/Kohli both average over 60

Dhawan/Rahul/Pujara all avg over 50 vs spin

 

Only Rahane is looking bad here at 35.3

 

@Moochad

Look at the stats for Rahane, Laxman and MSD. They all avg lower than players who come in at the top of the order. Of the players who average over 60, 3 are openers: Sehwag, Gambhir, and Vijay. This kind of supports what you were saying the other day.

 

There is no way Laxman and MSD and could average so low vs spin if they were up the order, methinks

 

 

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52 minutes ago, R.D forever said:

Problem is no one out of current lot can sweep. Anything outside off should be swept away

I once saw the marathi sweeping against Australia in India...but the guy does that once in a blue moon i.e. when in the right frame of mind...most of the time tatti is activated in his head. 

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1 hour ago, Tibarn said:

People are underrating our current lot I think.

 

Vijay/Kohli both average over 60

Dhawan/Rahul/Pujara all avg over 50 vs spin

 

Only Rahane is looking bad here at 35.3

 

@Moochad

Look at the stats for Rahane, Laxman and MSD. They all avg lower than players who come in at the top of the order. Of the players who average over 60, 3 are openers: Sehwag, Gambhir, and Vijay. This kind of supports what you were saying the other day.

 

There is no way Laxman and MSD and could average so low vs spin if they were up the order, methinks

 

 

It is surprising that VVS ends up averaging below 50 vs spin. 

 

He is as good a player of spin as I have seen before. 

 

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People keep forgetting that older gen players were losing a lot to SL & Pak. Batting collapse in Bangalore vs Pak,vs Eng in Mumbai under Dravid,Clarke taking 6 wickets,losing every tri series final to Pak or Sl while chasing in the Ganguly era,54 all out vs SL,losing wickets to Paul Harris show oldies had their issues with spinners.Heck they even lost 2-3 ODIs playing against spinners of Bangladesh like Rafique.In most matches in 2000s,till Sehwag was there,spinners will be subdued.After his departure,spinners will start dominating again.The major difference between oldies & newbies is they were playing lots of balls,hence lots of matches were drawn instead of losing.But the current issue is t20 & ODI players in test side showing their impatience & loose techniques against spinners like Moeen,Lyon.The old players were not good at sweeping spinners either.

I see too much praise being showered to oldies which they don't deserve either.

Edited by diehardpacer

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13 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Moeen , in rhythm, is a very good spinner. It's time we accept that. 

he hit the rough today. and had 4 inning pressure, he was gifted wickets in first inning thats down to poor batting.

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You know why coz sehwag never let spin dictate terms they were scared of him, sehwag would have smashed Ali to oblivion, the thing is none of our current bats barring Kohli and pujara have decisive footwork and look for strike rotation sums up the whole problem, sehwag was genius in this regard 
Rahane did well this test against spinners, playing with soft hands.

Sent from my CPH1819 using Tapatalk

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33 minutes ago, Vilander said:

he hit the rough today. and had 4 inning pressure, he was gifted wickets in first inning thats down to poor batting.

Perhaps but he has been a damn good spinner. His revs have been as high as 2400 rpm compared to ashwins peak of around 1600 rpm. That's a massive difference.  That why he was getting so much bounce and turn on the odd delivery. Currently among offspinner s - Lyon and Ali give it the biggest rip consistently. Ashwin is no match for that. We need a spinner who can match that. 

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2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

People do over rate past a lot. we have seen our greats crumbling to average spinners in the past and despite making rank turners, we never had this good record at home.

That's because most teams in the past were good especially in batting department and our bowling was never that good even at home. Our current bowling attack under kohli is ruthless at home hence we get good results .

Our current batsmen are a step or 2 down against spin in spinning conditions except a couple of batsmen,if you can't see this simple thing then I can't help .

The England series in India wlare the perfect type of pitches for India to win because our batsmen can play on those relatively easily and our bowlers are class enough to wither down the opposition batsmen. On rank turners it can be a gamble like against Aus in pune 

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Not just against spin, the overall test batting has degraded. Gauti,Sehwag,Rahul Dravid, Sachin, VVS and Saurav were many times better in tests than Vijay,Shikhar, Rahul, Chet,Virat and Ajinkya.It's been more than 7 years and the only quality long term replacement we have found in this time is Virat Kohli. The loss of Sehwag,Rahul,Sachin and VVS cannot be made by just Virat Kohli.We needed few more batsmen who could have a much better career batting average.

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19 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Perhaps but he has been a damn good spinner. His revs have been as high as 2400 rpm compared to ashwins peak of around 1600 rpm. That's a massive difference.  That why he was getting so much bounce and turn on the odd delivery. Currently among offspinner s - Lyon and Ali give it the biggest rip consistently. Ashwin is no match for that. We need a spinner who can match that. 

May be we wil see about ashwin.

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Sadly the video available is crappy as heck, but if you want to see how to play against spin on a minefield, there is no better example than Sunnyji's last test innings in Bangalore against Pak in late 1986 where he scored 96. That's is how you play spin bachhu!

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Checking the stats for Sunny because the other poster mentioned him:

S. Gavaskar

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28794.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 1971-1987 144 23 52 52 1 16 0 0 0 0 34.94 12 view dismissals
spin bowler 1971-1987 47 9 34 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 68.02 0 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 1971-1985 7 1 1 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 72.85 0

 

68.02 avg is superb, but is 3rd on the list: 

 

Based on all the stats in this thread, by average the top 5 Indian batsmen vs spin are

1) Sehwag 74.09

2) Vijay 69.74

3) Gavaskar 68.02

4) Kohli 67.71

5) Gambhir 64.12

 

Edited by Tibarn

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1 hour ago, Tibarn said:

Checking the stats for Sunny because the other poster mentioned him:

S. Gavaskar

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28794.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting;view=dismissal_summary

Dismissal summary
GroupingAscending Span Dis bwd c fie c wk st lbw hw ro oth no Ave 0s  
                             
pace bowler 1971-1987 144 23 52 52 1 16 0 0 0 0 34.94 12 view dismissals
spin bowler 1971-1987 47 9 34 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 68.02 0 view dismissals
mixture/unknown 1971-1985 7 1 1 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 72.85 0

 

68.02 avg is superb, but is 3rd on the list: 

 

Based on all the stats in this thread, by average the top 5 Indian batsmen vs spin are

1) Sehwag 74.09

2) Vijay 69.74

3) Gavaskar 68.02

4) Kohli 67.71

5) Gambhir 64.12

 

4 are openers, only Kohli is a middle order batsmen :agree:

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Compare either batsman of this era with themselves or old era. Facing Murli & Warne was no joke. Pak had Saqlain Mushtaq. These batsman score against spinner in india only that too if its highway else they can get to out to part timers on rank turners. In SENA countries if there is bit rough i bet these all batsman in current team will struggle to chase anything about 200 no matter who the spinner is. 

Edited by Nikola

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