Medium and long term planning are needed to win difficult test series overseas

[express bowling]

Every time a test series is lost in SENA countries, the reactions are predictable. We fans get angry and the team management come up with excuses or explanations.

 

BUT

 

Is there sufficient medium and long-term planning by the Team management,  the BCCI and the selectors, to win difficult series overseas  ?

 

 

1 )   Developing and selecting the right kinds of players needed in test matches ----

 

Who are the pacers who have done well in tests matches over the years ?  Basically those who were / are capable of bowling a high percentage of deliveries in the right areas while bowling with sufficient pace and bounce. And were capable of setting up batsmen. Having a highly skilled swing bowler in the mix is helpful too.

 

And we have done this to a large extent and working on improving it.  Result ... we have the best psce attack in our history snd picking 20 wickets regularly in tests.

 

But what is the scenario regarding test batsmen  ?

 

Very different I would say.

 

The easier series in India are the right times to develop proper test batsmen who will do well outside Asia too.

 

Who are such batsmen  ?    Those who have a good off stump game,  are decent against short balls and can play spin decently.  

 

What have we done  ?  ... There are only 5 specialist slots for batters these days and we have wasted some of those batting slots by playing Dhawan and Rohit and even bringing back Gambhir for 2 tests.  Dhawan is poor on both counts, Rohit has a poor off stump game and test match temperament and Gambhir is past his prime.

 

2016 and 2017 was the right time to develop proper batsmen for the 2018 leg of away tours ... but it was not done.

 

 

 

2 )   Planning proper acclimatization in foreign countries by playing sufficient practice matches with the red ball  ----

 

 

3 practice matches with the red ball need to be played on tours to Sena countries.

 

The BCCI scheduled just 1 such match for both the SA and England tours.

 

The Team management went ahead and cancelled that sole match in SA and reduced it in England.  

 

This shows lack of foresight.

 

In Australia, we should either play 3 practice matches with the red ball before the test series or CANCEL the test series.

 

India is an economically strong country now, and the citizens have high aspirations nowadays. We deserve to be treated with respect by our national cricket team and the people around it ... by planning and preparing properly.  If we lose after that, we can deal with it.

 

 

 

3 )  Please choose only those players for test matches who want to succeed in test cricket  ----

 

In this day and age of T20 leagues,  there are lots of young cricketers all over the world, whose aspirations are limited to T20 league success and the associated glitz and glamour.  To each his own. They are entitled to their opinion and choices in life. 

 

But, please don't select them in test cricket. No one can succeed in something in which they have no will to succeed.  Don't get fooled by their talent but look at their objective in cricketing life.

 

Kohli talks a lot about test cricket being very important ... and he is doing supremely well because intention to succed has mixed with talent.

 

Bumrah kept on saying that he wants to play test cricket ... and has made a stellar start.

 

Bhuvi is an honest trier in everything he does.  Pujara and Jadeja are obviously interested in test cricket. Shami played a test match when his little daughter was in hospital  etc. etc.   

 

Please choose only the interested cricketers in test matches.

 

 

 

P.s --  Similar planning needs to be done for World Cup 2019 ... but it is not happening.  The types of players being chosen for No.4  to  No.6  are not correct. Pandya is the only lower-middle order big hitter ... and it is astonishing in 2018, when 350+ scores are common.

 

The pace bowling in ODIs is weak too barring Bumrah.

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by express bowling

[zen]

At least start out with playing 2 practise games before the 1st test in SENA .... Happy to see Pujara's efforts pay off in the end 

[Vk1]

Honestly we should stop picking the so called swashbuckling or stroke makers for tests. Shaw is an exception since he could be special. 

Have seen enough of such players and however harsh I may sound I'm even sceptical about Mayank now for the same reason. You simply cannot be an attacking player and score runs overseas. 

Pick genuine Ranji long format players like Vihari,  Siddhesh lad etc..

[mishra]

Thank you for the post.

 

Why cant we have test specialist playing in clubs overseas. A conscious effort should be made to ensure that Test talents do sign up for a overseas club, be it in English County or in Australia Newzealand and South Africa. Certain aspect of Limited over team management should be different from Test team management.

 

You are right on money when you say should be picking players from those groups who are willing to succeed in Test arena. Lets take the case of Pujara. he was not selected because his stint in County, I had to argue with few analytically smart people of icf why he should be playing despite poor County performance on basis that if a player has come all the way to County he is willing. And performance for a County game doesnt reflect his true potential or measure as national colours are totally different.

Kohli/Shashtri should STFU and let him play the way he wants and should not be allowed to tamper his spot in test team.

 

He wouldnt like a injury in a county game. He wouldnt like bat whole day in a county game, he may be wotrking on certain weakness in a county game. But he will play even after he has several bruises and body blows from a 90kph ball and has a swollen eye, if he is in national collour.

Edited September 3, 2018 by mishra

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

pace bowling ,slip catching ,off stump game ...problem is you dont need them to win in ind ,so will remain be ignored .

 

Pace bowling has been worked on a lot.

 

Why not the other 2 crucial aspects  ?

[prasen82]

Great topic.

 

I think test cricket is what creates the cricketers and the technique. Without it with the ipl and tonty 20 Tamasha we will look at cricket being taken to the dogs.

 

It's very difficult to balance t20 and tests . So test specialists are a must and unless they are supremely talented like kohli no point taking them from IPL.

 

Test cricketers should get higher base pay than odi than twenty 20.

 

Test selection purely on basis of ranji, a tour performances .

 

Keep test team candidates in three groups separate of odi and twenty20 and include top ranji performers in there as well. Top 3 ranji batsmen and bowlers will by default be in group A for that year.

 

 

 

Cap salaries at IPL to no more than 3 crores and rest of the auction money will go to player depending on performance in  odi or twenty 20.  Each person can set their own goals and what they want to achieve.  I know it looks like our self appraisal but high time people making millions have some accountability. This way we keep their drive to excel. 

[express bowling]

The England series has been decided.

 

But the test series in Australia is just 75 days away.

 

We should use the upcoming test series vs the West Indies to plug the holes.

 

Don't choose the teams for Indian conditions but get those players ready  who can do well in Australia.

 

Batsmen who can handle pace and bounce and have good off-stump games.

 

Pacers who are accurate and have pace and bounce.

 

Pacers should be Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Saini and Ishant.  Rajpoot is there too.

 

Who should the batsmen be according to you guys  ?   ( The batsmen who should be played in the tests vs the West Indies with a view to getting them settled for the Australian series )

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

• Start Taking 2 pace bowling all rounder overseas - both pandya n shankar and use them acc. Pandya is a work in progress and that cud lead to frustation at times , its imp to have patience with him and have some backups to.  Give HIM WI series to stack up his numbers and confidence. Having shankar will also give us an option of a solid batsman who can bowl and it will help us to manage pandya workload. No need to carry 3 spinners in SENA countries
• Pujara n rahane needs to pull their socks up- They have been inconsistent and team has suffered due to it . They are good players so u cnt even throw them away. 
• Get in Siraj Asap
• Have a batting coach who can also help us to counter spin better , pata chala agli series men LYON ne maar li 
• Give Vihari, SHAW, Nair an opp in next 3 games and see what they are about. Last 1 yr we wasted chances on dhawan n rohit and result is their for everyone. Select Mayank as 3rd opener 
• Back Pant, Panya, Rahul.....they are young and are thrown in most toughest condition. Seniors like rahane n pujara has to take more responsibility  
• Send ur senior players in SENA countries before so they can play 2-3 practice games . No point them playing meaningless ODI series which shud be used to blood in young players. 
• For A games start looking For leg spinners for now n future. Play gopal instead of nadeem and fast track rahul chahar for A games atleast . Nadeem will not play For India so dnt waste time on him. N regd chahal let him play a lot more FC with red ball 1st

Edited September 4, 2018 by Ankit_sharma03

[Lala]

Build green tracks for desi games like ranji trophy and give players to play themselves on bouncy/swingy conditions. Even though foreign team visited, lets create at least one green track at the expense of loss. Its hard to beat india in India under turning/flat conditions hence, anyway India can win the home series at an expense of lose of one game which gives lot of exposure to play under SENA tracks. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, Lala said:

Build green tracks for desi games like ranji trophy and give players to play themselves on bouncy/swingy conditions.

yea we did that and started having trundlers ruling the highest wkt taking charts, spin cupboard started to look empty

 

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Lala said:

Build green tracks for desi games like ranji trophy and give players to play themselves on bouncy/swingy conditions.

 

We are doing this for 5 years now.  And have better pacers as a result.

 

Problem is ...  top international batsmen hardly play any Ranji games. So, they don't have FC practice on green seaming tracks.

 

Quote

Even though foreign team visited, lets create at least one green track at the expense of loss.

 

We have done that too.

 

NZ 2016 ... 3 tests ... 1 green track and 2 flat tracks  ...  We won 3-0

 

Australia 2017 ...  4 tests ... 1 green track on which we won ... and won the series too.

 

SL 2017 ...  3 tests ... 1 green track and we won that test and series too.

 

Just 3 turning tracks out of 15 home tests in 2016 and 2017 ...  3 green tracks and 9 flat tracks.

 

The only test we lost in this period was on a turning track.

 

Quote

 

Its hard to beat india in India under turning/flat conditions hence, anyway India can win the home series at an expense of lose of one game which gives lot of exposure to play under SENA tracks. 

 

 

More green tracks in home tests,  atleast against the weaker teams like WI, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and SL ... is actually a good idea.

 

We should have 2 been tracks against the WI.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by express bowling

[express bowling]

28 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

yea we did that and started having trundlers ruling the highest wkt taking charts, spin cupboard started to look empty

 

 

Ankit ... Who would your top 7 batsmen be for the Australian tour  ?

 

We should play them against the WI.

[Ankit_sharma03]

12 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Ankit ... Who would your top 7 batsmen be for the Australian tour  ?

 

We should play them against the WI.

To be honest , m keeping my hopes low 

our best chance is kohli, rahane, rahul, pujara coming good n i have my doubts regd pujara against pace n bounce. 

I dnt think Nair wud any answer ...even if scores he ll be inconsitent ( he has a loose game unless he has taken his game to next level)

Shaw again is a new player so no point having high hopes , 

 

I really want to see how Vihari does whatever i hve seen of him is good but how he does in testing conditions remains to be seen . We all though pujara wud be our gr8 strength overseas and it wasnt the case so cnt say anything till we see. SO i want all 3 shaw, vihari, nair playing last game in england so atleast we ll get some idea. WI series wnt give much of a clue ....it ll be jst to give them some experience 

 

Selectors shud also have a word with vijay and tell him if u wanna come bak work hard, coz aus tour is not far away and we need quality n exp against that attack 

 

Youngsters will contribute here and their but its the seniors who have to take charge. A lot here are blaming pandya, pant ....which m not up for questioning young guys....the blame is on rahane, pujara, dhawan, rahul (somewhat) for me 

 

We hve to try shaw, vihari, nair .....and take a call after seeing them 

Infact ill go onto n say this - Pandya (hard hands which was the same prob with dhoni in aus) n pant( have doubts about his game against short pitch bowling) might struggle in Aus to as batsman ..........but m ok with it as its a learning curve

 

One more thing Add shankar, no point taking 3 spinners overseas. Shankar is good enough to play as batsman......yea his bowling might be taken to cleaners in Aus. 

 

This the core group

Openers- Rahul , shaw, mayank (keep vijay on the lines)

middle - pujara , kohli, rahane, vihari, nair

All rounder- pandya , shankar

 

choosing from them depends on form 

 

Bottom line if we have to win in Aus - Kohli , pujara, rahane rahul has to score.....they have to carry the youngsters with them 

[express bowling]

40 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

One more thing Add shankar, no point taking 3 spinners overseas. Shankar is good enough to play as batsman......yea his bowling might be taken to cleaners in Aus. 

 

Yes ... Shankar needs to be brought in the squad.

 

He is a proper batsmen who can bowl ...  I don't know why he is not in the mix.

 

He is an accurate medium pacer ... won't pick many wickets in Australia ... but may not go for runs either as he is accurate.

 

We need just 8 to 10 overs a day from him.

 

Pandya and Shankar ... both should be in the squad.

 

 

Quote

This the core group

Openers- Rahul , shaw, mayank (keep vijay on the lines)

middle - pujara , kohli, rahane, vihari, nair

All rounder- pandya , shankar

 

 

Agree with this group apart from Vijay.  He has lost motivation. No point sticking with him.

 

The selectors should also look at any new batsman who is good against pace and bounce and has a good back-foot game ... along with a proper off-stump game.  I would choose that batsman over any new batter in the above list who maybe weak in these 2 aspects.

[express bowling]

 

Pant has left balls well in England and played close to his body most of the time. Has rarely poked at outside off stump balls. Hasn't looked weak against the short ball either.   3 of his 4 dismissals were to good balls.  

 

Pant is a proper 6th batsman.  FC average of 54.5 before test debut ... averaged 62 in the 2 Unofficial tests in England 45 days back.

 

He can be and should be persisted with to solve the 6th batsman problem.

[Nikola]

Team Should be -

Rahul

(One Left hand opener)

Pujara

Virat

Rahane

(Batsman who can bowl as part timer)

Pant (WK)

Shami

Bumrah

Siraj/Rajpoot

Ishant

 

Idk if there are good left hand opener if not try right hand. We need a part time bowler and batsman who can avg around 40 at no 6. No need of spinner on aus track unless it has much help i would drop one pacer from side. We should go attacking against aussies right from first session till end of series.

[express bowling]

28 minutes ago, Nikola said:

Team Should be -

Rahul

(One Left hand opener)

Pujara

Virat

Rahane

(Batsman who can bowl as part timer)

Pant (WK)

Shami

Bumrah

Siraj/Rajpoot

Ishant

 

Idk if there are good left hand opener if not try right hand. We need a part time bowler and batsman who can avg around 40 at no 6. No need of spinner on aus track unless it has much help i would drop one pacer from side. We should go attacking against aussies right from first session till end of series.

 

Left-right combination does create difficulty for opening bowlers ... but I am unaware of a proper left hander opener.  Dhawan has to go.

 

1 proper spinner is needed for day 4 and day 5 in Australia.

[express bowling]

Do we have a proper batsman ( uncapped )  who is decent spinner too.

 

Our frontline spinners have been poor in SENA countries in the last 30 years, averaging between 37 and 47.

 

A proper batsman cum spinner + 4 frontline pacers, might be a good option.

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

9 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

He is a proper batsmen who can bowl ...  I don't know why he is not in the mix.

Yea i dnt think so they have even thought on the lines of carrying both of them 

 

9 hours ago, express bowling said:

Agree with this group apart from Vijay.  He has lost motivation. No point sticking with him.

Yup looks like but m jst hoping that kick might work coz we need quality with experience to win games

But its jst a hope 

9 hours ago, express bowling said:

The selectors should also look at any new batsman who is good against pace and bounce and has a good back-foot game ... along with a proper off-stump game.  I would choose that batsman over any new batter in the above list who maybe weak in these 2 aspects.

The batsman that are in radar are

Shaw

Vihari

Nair

Mayank 

gill (who i think will not be considered right now)

Shorey

 

But we hve no time left to test them, as we were saying last yr the time wasted on rohit n dhawan will cme back to haunt us 

[Sgattick10]

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

Do we have a proper batsman ( uncapped )  who is decent spinner too.

 

Our frontline spinners have been poor in SENA countries in the last 30 years, averaging between 37 and 47.

 

A proper batsman cum spinner + 4 frontline pacers, might be a good option.

 

 

How is this Sanjay Ramaswamy, we can look for 2-3 opening options if Pujara fails one if these openers can bat at 3.