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rtmohanlal

Won't it be the solution to play 3 all rounders on a consistant basis with Jadeja at no:6?

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Before the series started ,there was a topic to select the eleven for the series. I included all the 4 all rounders(that includes Kuldeep) in the eleven.Though that is stretching it a bit too much, based on the matters that turned out to be in the series, I think it would not at all be a bad idea to play all 4 in subcontinent &  3 of them  else where(Kuldeep   too if conditions favours spin a lot)  with Jadeja at no:6.

 

And why Jadeja at no:6 ??  With today's inns , he proved that he can put valuable runs in SENA.He avg:s  almost 50 in first class.3 300s means, if conditions favours him , he can play mammoth inns too.Though this avg: cannot at all be  a measure of his world class ability  like say Kohli or even Pujara or  even a  Karun nair, him being a world class bowler for the team can make up for his slightly lower avg: if he is to bat at no:6. More over, in the last 2 years he averages 46.29 in tests with 8 of his 9 50+ scores coming in this period.Yes it is highly inflated by 11 not outs in 28 inns, but still if we assume it to be 3 not outs  by adding (11-3)*20 = 160  more runs, then also his record of 28 inns ,3 not outs ,   787+160 = 947 runs,  947/25 =  37.88 avg:  is fairly good for a genuine no:6 batsman. To add to that he is a  left hander too which provide much needed variety.And  for a spinner, he has about 8 years left too.

 

And this provide the cushion of playing Ashwin & Pandya too to come after him.Yes I know both Ashwin & Pandya could have been a bit more better in the on going series, especially Ashwin with his experience. But still if we take the 'sum of parts ', both of them combined have a batting avg: of around 41.5 & a bowling avg: of around 28.5 .That is equivalent to a specialist batsman + a specialist bowler.This despite the fact of such bad luck with the toss, which other wise could have been convincingly better. Quite sure not all important series can't be this much unlucky w.r.t toss.

 

That means 5 genuine batsmen(ofcourse hacks like Dhawan get kicked out)  + Jadeja + WK + 2 all rounders + 2 seam bowlers provide the much needed all round balance for any condition.And in sub continent 1 seam bowler can be replaced by another spinner, probably Kuldeep.Thoughts...

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It's our badluck that none of our batsmen are competent fifth bowlers like Sachin, sehwag, yuvraj etc...

 

Bhuvi + jaddu + Ashwin + 2 Pacers 

Is anyday a potent combination than

Pandya + jaddu + Ashwin. + 2 Pacers...

 

Also the wk needs to step up. Total runs scored by our wkeepers in this series is 67 in 9 innings so far. Pisspoor...

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1 minute ago, Temujin Khaghan said:

We can forget about pandya in test cricket and happily play bhuvi at 8, after keeper and spinner in Australia.

can't Bhuvi being one among the 2 lone pacers i specified enough??  he can contribute useful runs too. I think Bhuvi,Bumrah/Ishant,Pandya,Ashwin,Jadeja can form a potent all condition bowling unit.

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Well idk if bhuvi will be useful on Australian pitches but i will give him one or two tests and if he can't do anything he don't deserve to play just to enjoy green tops. His odi performance is always ignored by posters and his fans which might cost us worldcup.

Edited by Nikola

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31 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Bhuvi,Bumrah/Ishant,Pandya,Ashwin,Jadeja can form a potent all condition bowling unit.

 

No.

 

Pandya not ready to be 3rd pacer yet in SENA.

 

Bumrah is a must in all challenging test matches.  

 

Bhuvi cannot be a regular on flat tracks.  

 

Need to introduce Siraj.

 

2 spinners rarely needed in SENA.

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11 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

No.

 

Pandya not ready to be 3rd pacer yet in SENA.

 

Bumrah is a must in all challenging test matches.  

 

Bhuvi cannot be a regular on flat tracks.  

 

Need to introduce Siraj.

 

2 spinners rarely needed in SENA.

How shardul thaakur got picked ahead of Siraj seriously ?? lol @ our squad management 

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24 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

The meer fact that u wanna bat jadeja at no.6 overseas based on one innings makes me wanna ignore this whole post.

I mean ye aadmi 10 saal se batting below avg raha hia, thoda to wait krlo opinion bnane men

did i point out that only as the reason?????

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18 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

Team India is badly missing someone like Shakib Al Hasan in its test side. 

 

We need a batting allrounder that will bat at #6 and can give us 10-15 overs of tight spin bowling which will allow Team India to play 4 specialist fast bowlers in SENA. 

 

if any thing to go by the last 2 years test stats of Jadeja, he can be that  man.

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38 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

Team India is badly missing someone like Shakib Al Hasan in its test side. 

 

We need a batting allrounder that will bat at #6 and can give us 10-15 overs of tight spin bowling which will allow Team India to play 4 specialist fast bowlers in SENA. 

 

 

That would be ideal.

 

Jadeja averages almost 53 in domestic FC cricket, so there is some batting talent present ... and should have been that guy.

 

His knock yesterday in testing conditions against quality pacers, does give some hope.   Played the ball under his eyes, left impeccably, displayed good idea of where his off stump is,  displayed grit and batted with the tail.  Amazing transformation really.  

 

If Jadeja can continue to bat this way in the next 2 tests and in the 2nd innings of this match, there is a case for batting him at 6 ...  then the WK ... then 4 pacers out of whom one can bat somewhat.

Edited by express bowling

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After a few games, if Jadeja does not live up to the high standards, many fans would be asking to replace Jadeja  

 

Disappointing. Strategically we are weak. Ind fans overrate their team and the players. They want the team to win everything. The players, including ATGs, usually don't live up to fan's high standards. Anyone who does well is automatically seen as a solution in the short term till he becomes inconsistent .... the cycle continues 

 

To improve selection in test cricket, first we have to acknowledge that Ashwin, Jadeja (though he has potential), Bhuvi, etc. are not test all-rounders. They are bowlers who can bat well. In the past, Kumble, Srinath, etc. had shown batting potential as well and perceived as players who can be all-rounders. We cannot imagine that the talent displayed in an occasional good inning will be continued by them consistently

 

Being an All-rounder is a responsibility. Unless you are a natural talent, you have to devote time to develop both aspect of your game. These guys are not even consistent in their primary area of strength. Coming out and playing a few good knocks here and there is different than becoming accountable as an all-rounder. A bad performance in your primary area can make your stock fall sharply like what happened to Ashwin in the last game. A good batting performance by him probably would not have saved him from criticism for the failure to deliver with the ball, his primary area  

 

 

Edited by zen

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11 minutes ago, Khota said:

After Pandya experiment we still want allrounders?

Unlike what you would like to believe, ARs have come up with impact performances to help Ind win:

 

View overall figures [change view]
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Overall figures
Player Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave DiffDescending  
RA Jadeja 1 86 86* - 0 5 4/79 23.00 0 0 0 - investigate this query
HH Pandya 4 164 52* 23.42 0 10 5/28 24.70 1 0 0 -1.27 investigate this query
R Ashwin 4 126 33* 21.00 0 11 4/62 32.72 0 1 0 -11.72 investigate this query
I Sharma 5 37 14 5.28 0 18 5/51 24.16 1 0 0 -18.88 investigate this query
JJ Bumrah 3 6 6 2.00 0 14 5/85 23.42 1 1 0 -21.42 investigate this query
UT Yadav 1 1 1* - 0 3 2/20 25.33 0 0 0 - investigate this query
Mohammed Shami 5 27 10* 3.37 0 15 4/57 36.26 0 1 0 -32.89 investigate this query
S Dhawan 4 161 44 23.00 0 - - - - 2 0 - investigate this query
KD Karthik 2 21 20 5.25 0 - - - - 5 0 - investigate this query
V Kohli 5 593 149 65.88 2 - - - - 4 0 - investigate this query
Kuldeep Yadav 1 0 0 0.00 0 0 - - 0 0 0 - investigate this query
RR Pant 3 48 24 9.60 0 - - - - 13 0 - investigate this query
CA Pujara 4 278 132* 46.33 1 - - - - 0 0 - investigate this query
AM Rahane 5 220 81 24.44 0 - - - - 4 0 - investigate this query
KL Rahul 5 150 37 16.66 0 - - - - 13 0 - investigate this query
GH Vihari 1 56 56 56.00 0 0 - - 0 0 0 - investigate this query
M Vijay 2 26 20 6.50 0 - - - - 0 0 -

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

That would be ideal.

 

Jadeja averages almost 53 in domestic FC cricket, so there is some batting talent present ... and should have been that guy.

 

His knock yesterday in testing conditions against quality pacers, does give some hope.   Played the ball under his eyes, left impeccably, displayed good idea of where his off stump is,  displayed grit and batted with the tail.  Amazing transformation really.  

 

If Jadeja can continue to bat this way in the next 2 tests and in the 2nd innings of this match, there is a case for batting him at 6 ...  then the WK ... then 4 pacers out of whom one can bat somewhat.

We need the batting allrounder to average at least 40 minimum. I am not sure if Jadeja can achieve that so I won't say too much on him. 

Is there anyone in Ranji trophy who is a batsman that will give us 10-15 overs of tight spin bowling? He doesn't even have to be a wickettaker. Just a 5th bowler who comes onto bowl when the 4 fast bowlers need a bit of a break. 

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1 hour ago, zen said:

After a few games, if Jadeja does not live up to the high standards, many fans would be asking to replace Jadeja  

 

Disappointing. Strategically we are weak. Ind fans overrate their team and the players. They want the team to win everything. The players, including ATGs, usually don't live up to fan's high standards. Anyone who does well is automatically seen as a solution in the short term till he becomes inconsistent .... the cycle continues 

 

What we fans want is largely immaterial.  You are overestimating fan power.  It is only there as a collective group in the way of viewership increasing or decreasing significantly for a substantial period.

 

We keep discussing these things because we like it.

 

Quote

To improve selection in test cricket, first we have to acknowledge that Ashwin, Jadeja (though he has potential), Bhuvi, etc. are not test all-rounders.

 

Neither is Pandya of today.   I support him purely because of his potential.  

 

There isn't much difference between Pandya, Ashwin and Jadeja as test batsmen in 2018.  Bhuvi's grit as a test batsman is higher than all 3.

 

 

Quote

Being an All-rounder is a responsibility. Unless you are a natural talent, you have to devote time to develop both aspect of your game. These guys are not even consistent in their primary area of strength. Coming out and playing a few good knocks here and there is different than becoming accountable as an all-rounder. A bad performance in your primary area can make your stock fall sharply like what happened to Ashwin in the last game. A good batting performance by him probably would not have saved him from criticism for the failure to deliver with the ball, his primary area  

 

 

This Team management wants to play 5 bowlers and 4 pacers in SENA.  I like the idea because it makes the 3 main pacers bowl with intensity and take 20 wickets relatively cheaply.

 

Jadeja and Ashwin have always been good bowlers in Asia and rarely been good bowlers outside Asia, barring WI.  Ashwin has batted at 6 and neither has this adversely affected his bowling in Asia and nor has batting at 8 improved his bowling outside Asia.

 

If we want to play 5 bowlers then we either have to get a batsman who bowls or  play a bowling all-rounder at 6 or 7  or play a potential all-rounder or bits and pieces player.  

 

There is no way of doing this without giving atleast 1 person twin responsibility.  

 

Playing 6 specialist batsmen is not the solution for us.   Playing 5 really good batsmen is the solution.

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7 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

We need the batting allrounder to average at least 40 minimum. I am not sure if Jadeja can achieve that so I won't say too much on him. 

We have top batsmen from both sides averaging 8 to 20  in SA and England.  Don't think the batting AR will average 40.

 

In Asia, the AR can average 40.

 

7 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:


Is there anyone in Ranji trophy who is a batsman that will give us 10-15 overs of tight spin bowling? He doesn't even have to be a wickettaker. Just a 5th bowler who comes onto bowl when the 4 fast bowlers need a bit of a break. 

 

I think a wicket taking spinner is needed in the 4th innings.

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1 hour ago, Charlie_ said:

Jadeja at 6? ICF jumping the gun again.

 

Won't be any worse than Pandya of today or Pant of today  or Ashwin or Karthick or Parthiv   (  players who have batted at 6 in SA or England  )

 

Basically,  any of these choices mean choosing a weak 6th batsman to play 5 bowlers.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, express bowling said:

We have top batsmen from both sides averaging 8 to 20  in SA and England.  Don't think the batting AR will average 40.

 

In Asia, the AR can average 40.

 

 

I think a wicket taking spinner is needed in the 4th innings.

Ok but who is that batting AR? Who are the options from Ranji Trophy? 

A specialist spinner will struggle to take wickets and score big runs in SENA. That's why it's better to go with a batting AR who bowls spin at #6 who can score big runs and pick up a bonus wicket or 2. We need the 4 fast bowlers to do the bulk of the wicket taking, even in the 4th innings. 
 

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41 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

Ok but who is that batting AR? Who are the options from Ranji Trophy? 

A specialist spinner will struggle to take wickets and score big runs in SENA. That's why it's better to go with a batting AR who bowls spin at #6 who can score big runs and pick up a bonus wicket or 2. We need the 4 fast bowlers to do the bulk of the wicket taking, even in the 4th innings. 
 

 

I like this idea. But the spinner has to chip in with the ball too.


I follow uncapped Indian fast bowlers more closely than spinners ... their is no very good option as far as I know.

 

Based on domestic FC cricket, the options are 

 

Ravindra Jadeja

Washington Sundar

Jalaj Saxena

Pervez Rasool

 

Deepak Hooda  is there but does not bowl much.

 

 

Only  Sundar and Jadeja have potential as international batsmen.

 

 

Edited by express bowling

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

If we want to play 5 bowlers then we either have to get a batsman who bowls or  play a bowling all-rounder at 6 or 7  or play a potential all-rounder or bits and pieces player.  

 

There is no way of doing this without giving atleast 1 person twin responsibility.  

 

Playing 6 specialist batsmen is not the solution for us.   Playing 5 really good batsmen is the solution.

The point is that we should not put too much pressure on players to turn in to all-rounders, which is a responsibility and requires commitment to focus on both aspects of the game. If we start judging Bhuvi, Ashwin, Jadeja, etc., for AR performances, there is no way they can measure up consistently on it. The fact that they do well with the bat at times is because they have relatively less pressure. These guys are more useful for their primary skills so should focus on that If we are playing them, our approach should be as if we are playing 5 bowlers of which some of them can bat 

 

Similarly, if we have a batsman who can bowl a little. He would be expected to contribute heavily in his primary area 

 

These players would more or less be 80% primary area, 20% secondary area 

 

For AR or bits and pieces players, we are basically looking at 50-50 or 66-33. Therefore if you are playing as a geniune AR or a bits and pieces player, expectations would be to eventually  avg 35-45 with the bat and pick up 2-4 wkts per test or some combination of it 

 

As for Pandya, who has been fast tracked, is going through the learning curve. I would give him time till the WI series by which he would have played 13 tests. The Aus tour would be where he would be expected to deliver and be judged accordingly (less leeway for failures) 

 

For someone like Pant, who can be considered as a WK AR, i.e. being played because he can get runs too, I would give him the WI series (esp if Saha is injured and needs more rest). He would be expected to deliver to a certain extent in the Aus series if he makes it to the 11. In Aus, performances like in Eng would not be accepted 

 

If Pant and Pandya don’t measure up in tests in near future, Ind would still have gained by backing them in tests as they can take the learnings and apply it to LOIs where they are more suitable. Test cricket experience would have helped them to develop in to better cricketers. Ind can look for adequate replacements in tests if necessary or if better options are available 

 

Therefore, it is not always a great idea to be labeling someone an AR unless he is committed to devote adequate time to develop both skills and be judged accordingly. Otherwise there is a risk to lose out on their primary skills by devoting more time to develop the secondary skills of which he does not have to be scrutinized extensively 

 

For such roles, unless genuine options are available, you ideally want to try players who can be utilized in other formats if they don’t measure up in tests. If they do, it is a bonus!

 

 

Edited by zen

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22 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

Ok but who is that batting AR? Who are the options from Ranji Trophy? 

A specialist spinner will struggle to take wickets and score big runs in SENA. That's why it's better to go with a batting AR who bowls spin at #6 who can score big runs and pick up a bonus wicket or 2. We need the 4 fast bowlers to do the bulk of the wicket taking, even in the 4th innings. 
 

 

One interesting fact is ...  Jadeja is averaging  46 with the bat from 20 tests in the last 2 years.   

 

Has  eight 50+ scores from 28 innings and that is good.

 

 

CaHas er averages
  Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
unfiltered 2012-2018 37 54 13 1282 90 31.26 1996 64.22 0 9 3 133 34 Profile
filtered 2016-2018 20 28 11 787 90 46.29 1193 65.96 0 8 1 65 27  

 

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7 minutes ago, zen said:

The point is that we should not put too much pressure on players to turn in to all-rounders, which is a responsibility and requires commitment to focus on both aspects of the game. If we start judging Bhuvi, Ashwin, Jadeja, etc., for AR performances, there is no way they can measure up consistently on it. The fact that they do well with the bat at times is because they have relatively less pressure. These guys are more useful for their primary skills so should focus on that If we are playing them, our approach should be as as if we are playing 5 bowlers of which some of them can bat 

 

Similarly, if we have a batsman who can bowl a little. He would be expected to contribute heavily in his primary area 

 

These players would more or less be 80% primary area, 20% secondary area 

 

AR or bits and pieces players, we are basically looking at 50-50 or 66-33. Therefore if you are playing as a geniune AR or a bits and pieces player, expectations would be to eventually  avg 35-45 with the bat and pick up 2-4 wkts per test or some combination of it 

 

As for Pandya, since he has been fast tracked, is going through the learning curve. I would give him time till the WI series by he would have played 13 tests. The Aus tour would be where he would be expected to deliver and judged accordingly (less leeway for failures) 

 

For someone like Pant, who can be considered as a WK AR, i.e. being played because he can get runs too, I would give him the WI series (esp if Saha is injured and needs more rest). He would be expected to deliver to a certain extent in the Aus series if he makes it to the 11. In Aus, performances like in Eng would not be accepted 

 

Therefore, it is not a great idea to be labeling someone an AR unless he is committed to devote adequate time to develop both skills and not lose out on his primary skills by devoting more time to develop his secondary skills 

 

 

 

I don't think the label of an all-rounder puts addition pressure on a player if he has a primary area of strength where he is performing.

 

Ashwin has been labelled an all-rounder and has batted at 6 in quite a few tests in the last 3 years.  But his bowling in Asia is still as good.  And his bowling outside Asia was never good.

 

Main thing is ... if  we want to play 5 bowlers then we will have to have an all-rounder at 6.  Is there any other solution ?  And we don't have a quality batting all-rounder as of today.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I don't think the label of an all-rounder puts addition pressure on a player if he has a primary area of strength where he is performing.

 

Ashwin has been labelled an all-rounder and has batted at 6 in quite a few tests in the last 3 years.  But his bowling in Asia is still as good.  And his bowling outside Asia was never good.

 

Main thing is ... if  we want to play 5 bowlers then we will have to have an all-rounder at 6.  Is there any other solution ?  And we don't have a quality batting all-rounder as of today.

True. But by labeling someone like Ashwin as an AR, we are not really playing an AR. We are playing 5 bowlers of which some of them can bat 

 

If that is the fact, why put pressure (whatever it is), by putting unnecessary labels and when we know they are more like 7-9 level batsmen 

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26 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I like this idea. But the spinner has to chip in with the ball too.


I follow uncapped Indian fast bowlers more closely than spinners ... their is no very good option as far as I know.

 

Based on domestic FC cricket, the options are 

 

Ravindra Jadeja

Washington Sundar

Jalaj Saxena

Pervez Rasool

 

Deepak Hooda  is there but does not bowl much.

 

 

 

In your opinion, who do you think is the best option at #6 out of these names?

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3 minutes ago, zen said:

True. But by labeling someone like Ashwin as an AR, we are not really playing an AR. We are playing 5 bowlers of which some of them can bat 

 

If that is the fact, why put pressure (whatever it is), by putting unnecessary labels and when we know they are more like 7-9 level batsmen 

 

I think they themselves are putting the labels as it would be easier to garner a spot in the 11 outside Asia for spinners and in Asia for pacers ... if there are twin skills.   Plus, the possibility of bigger IPL contracts is there if this labelling can spill over to LOIs.

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15 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

In your opinion, who do you think is the best option at #6 out of these names?

 

Only Jadeja and Sundar have potential as international batsmen.   Sundar will need some more time to get ready.

 

Only current option is Jadeja ... who is averaging 46 with the bat in 20 tests in the last 2 years. 

Edited by express bowling

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3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I think they themselves are putting the labels as it would be easier to garner a spot in the 11 outside Asia for spinners and in Asia for pacers ... if there are twin skills.   Plus, the possibility of bigger IPL contracts is there if this labelling can spill over to LOIs.

They have to justify it too by working towards a career test avg in 35-45 range ..., otherwise they are like donkeys in zoo painted to look like zebras  :lol:

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3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Only Jadeja and Sundar have potential as international batsmen.   Sundar will need some more time to get ready.

 

Only current option is Jadeja ... who is averaging 46 with the bat in tests in the last years. 

Maybe we can play a lower order like this in SENA tests from now on: 

6. Rishabh Pant (WK)
7. Ravindra Jadeja 
8. FAST BOWLER #1 
9. FAST BOWLER #2 
10. FAST BOWLER #3 
11. FAST BOWLER #4 
 

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24 minutes ago, zen said:

True. But by labeling someone like Ashwin as an AR, we are not really playing an AR. We are playing 5 bowlers of which some of them can bat 

 

If that is the fact, why put pressure (whatever it is), by putting unnecessary labels and when we know they are more like 7-9 level batsmen 

 

If I may add to my earlier post  ...

 

Look at the advantage of carrying the label of an all-rounder.  

 

Ashwin becomes the automatic choice as the lone spinner in SENA  because he is perceived as the better all-rounder.  (  And I have been guilty of thinking this too ).

 

But fact is ...  in the last 2 years, Jadeja averages 46 and Ashwin averages 24 with the bat in test cricket.  

 

And apart from yesterday's innings, Jadeja played a crucial knock on a green bouncy track in Dharsmsala against the quick Aussies.

Edited by express bowling

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2 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

Maybe we can play a lower order like this in SENA tests from now on: 

6. Rishabh Pant (WK)
7. Ravindra Jadeja 
8. FAST BOWLER #1 
9. FAST BOWLER #2 
10. FAST BOWLER #3 
11. FAST BOWLER #4 
 

 

If Pant comes good then it would be a nice option.

 

Fast Bowler at 8 could be Bhuvi in favourable conditions and Pandya on flat tracks.

 

Main thing is Pant coming good.  Saha can't bat at 6 and even 7  can be dicey for him. (  although he is the best keeper by a country mile )

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5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

If I may add to my earlier post  ...

 

Look at the advantage of carrying the label of an all-rounder.  

 

Ashwin becomes the automatic choice as the lone spinner in SENA  because he is perceived as the better all-rounder.  (  And I have been guilty of thinking this too ).

 

But fact is ...  in the last 2 years, Jadeja averages 46 and Ashwin averages 24 with the bat in test cricket.  

 

And apart from yesterday's innings, Jadeja played a crucial knock on a green bouncy track in Dharsmsala too against the quick Aussies.

I can see the advantages of the label but unless they have a career batting avg in 35-45 range, they are like donkeys in the zoo painted to look like zebras :lol:

 

Jadeja and Ashwin have played substantial games where their career batting avg is 30 or less. Bhuvi should be closer to 20 or in low 20s .... because of these labels, we are unnecessarily discussing them as ARs but I do see potential in Jadeja as a relatively consistent #7-8 batsman as he seems to have improved in the batting dept :nod:

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

If Pant comes good then it would be a nice option.

 

Fast Bowler at 8 could be Bhuvi in favourable conditions and Pandya on flat tracks.

 

Main thing is Pant coming good.  Saha can't bat at 6 and even 7  can be dicey for him. (  although he is the best keeper by a country mile )

Not Pandya please. We need a specialist front line bowler who will take wickets regularly. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, zen said:

I can see the advantages of the label but unless they have a career batting avg in 35-45 range, they are like donkeys in the zoo painted to look like zebras :lol:

 

Jadeja and Ashwin have played substantial games where their career batting avg is 30 or less. Bhuvi should be closer to 20 or in low 20s .... because of these labels, we are unnecessarily discussing them as ARs but I do see potential in Jadeja as a relatively consistent #7-8 batsman as he seems to have improved in the batting dept :nod:

 

 

ATG all-rounders like Hadlee, Botham and Kapil had low batting averages too.  Imran's improved a bit after he quit bowling and became a batsman.  

 

Akram, Flintoff, Pollock, Stokes ... all have low batting averages.

 

There hasn't been any bowling all-rounder  in the last 45 years who has averaged over 35 with the bat after sufficient test matches barring Imran.

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3 hours ago, zen said:

Unlike what you would like to believe, ARs have come up with impact performances to help Ind win:

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team India remove India from query
Opposition team England remove England from query
Home or away away (home of opposition) remove away (home of opposition) from query
Start of match date between 9 Sep 2017 and 9 Sep 2018 remove between 9 Sep 2017 and 9 Sep 2018 from query
Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending)
Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 17 of 17   First pageFirst Previous pagePrevious Next Next page Last Last page dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu
dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu
Overall figures
Player Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave DiffDescending  
RA Jadeja 1 86 86* - 0 5 4/79 23.00 0 0 0 - investigate this query
HH Pandya 4 164 52* 23.42 0 10 5/28 24.70 1 0 0 -1.27 investigate this query
R Ashwin 4 126 33* 21.00 0 11 4/62 32.72 0 1 0 -11.72 investigate this query
I Sharma 5 37 14 5.28 0 18 5/51 24.16 1 0 0 -18.88 investigate this query
JJ Bumrah 3 6 6 2.00 0 14 5/85 23.42 1 1 0 -21.42 investigate this query
UT Yadav 1 1 1* - 0 3 2/20 25.33 0 0 0 - investigate this query
Mohammed Shami 5 27 10* 3.37 0 15 4/57 36.26 0 1 0 -32.89 investigate this query
S Dhawan 4 161 44 23.00 0 - - - - 2 0 - investigate this query
KD Karthik 2 21 20 5.25 0 - - - - 5 0 - investigate this query
V Kohli 5 593 149 65.88 2 - - - - 4 0 - investigate this query
Kuldeep Yadav 1 0 0 0.00 0 0 - - 0 0 0 - investigate this query
RR Pant 3 48 24 9.60 0 - - - - 13 0 - investigate this query
CA Pujara 4 278 132* 46.33 1 - - - - 0 0 - investigate this query
AM Rahane 5 220 81 24.44 0 - - - - 4 0 - investigate this query
KL Rahul 5 150 37 16.66 0 - - - - 13 0 - investigate this query
GH Vihari 1 56 56 56.00 0 0 - - 0 0 0 - investigate this query
M Vijay 2 26 20 6.50 0 - - - - 0 0 -

He was the 5 best bat and took the fewest wickets. What am I missing?

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Can't have a bowler who can't bat at No.8 or No.7... especially with a weak No.6

We are back to square one. This is why I am saying that we need a batting allrounder who can average at least 40 with the bat and can bowl 10-15 tight overs of spin bowling in a day at #6. 

 

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1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

ATG all-rounders like Hadlee, Botham and Kapil had low batting averages too.  Imran's improved a bit after he quit bowling and became a batsman.  

 

Akram, Flintoff, Pollock, Stokes ... all have low batting averages.

 

There hasn't been any bowling all-rounder  in the last 45 years who has averaged over 35 with the bat after sufficient test matches barring Imran.

Now a lot of players avg 40+ (around 50 in last 10 years w/ those over 2k runs). In 80s for e.g., with those above 2k runs, only 20 or so avg above 40 

 

The players listed above usually play in Eng and SA. Akram played most of his games at 8-9 position 

 

These guys, if slotted at #6, have to avg a little higher than 30 to be labeled as ARs. For 8-9 position, I would take an avg of 30 or less esp. if they make it to the side as one of the top 4 bowlers

Edited by zen

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9 minutes ago, SecondSlip said:

We are back to square one. This is why I am saying that we need a batting allrounder who can average at least 40 with the bat and can bowl 10-15 tight overs of spin bowling in a day at #6. 

 

Note that in the last 5 years, below is what our batsmen have done:

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team India remove India from query
Start of match date between 10 Sep 2013 and 10 Sep 2018 remove between 10 Sep 2013 and 10 Sep 2018 from query
Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 500 remove runs scored greater than or equal to 500 from query
Ordered by batting average (descending)
Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 12 of 12   First pageFirst Previous pagePrevious Next Next page Last Last page dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu
dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu
Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
V Kohli 2013-2018 53 90 5 4972 243 58.49 8053 61.74 19 13 4 546 12 investigate this query
CA Pujara 2013-2018 49 82 4 3629 202 46.52 8008 45.31 11 15 4 427 7 investigate this query
AM Rahane 2013-2018 49 83 9 3105 188 41.95 6019 51.58 9 14 6 353 23 investigate this query
RG Sharma 2013-2018 25 43 6 1479 177 39.97 2682 55.14 3 9 4 144 29 investigate this query
M Vijay 2013-2018 43 74 1 2894 155 39.64 6318 45.80 9 12 6 336 24 investigate this query
S Dhawan 2013-2018 33 56 1 2127 190 38.67 3278 64.88 6 5 4 283 10 investigate this query
KL Rahul 2014-2018 29 47 1 1662 199 36.13 2874 57.82 4 11 4 199 11 investigate this query
RA Jadeja 2013-2018 32 48 12 1185 90 32.91 1844 64.26 0 9 3 118 33 investigate this query
WP Saha 2014-2018 30 42 8 1090 117 32.05 2392 45.56 3 5 5 103 11 investigate this query
HH Pandya 2017-2018 11 18 1 532 108 31.29 720 73.88 1 4 2 68 12 investigate this query
MS Dhoni 2013-2014 13 23 1 667 82 30.31 1239 53.83 0 5 2 92 3 investigate this query
R Ashwin 2013-2018 46 67 7 1673 124 27.88 3135 53.36 3 8 2 186 9 investigate this query

 

Only 3 batsmen avg above 40. Pandya is new. Dhoni has retired. 

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We became a #1 team by playing 5 bowlers 3 seamers ans 2 Spinners in India. In away matches, we need 3 seamers, with a bowler like Bhuvi and a proper #6 batsman and a  spinner.who can bat like Jadeja or Ashwin. Simple. Pandya is inadequate in Tests , can be a replacement in India only not in SENA.

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1 hour ago, Khota said:

He was the 5 best bat and took the fewest wickets. What am I missing?

I don't know why would you post this :lol:  ....  Has 10 wkts. Bowled in 6 innings only. So that is a very good performance for a 5th bowler, taking wkts per inning and SR in to account. Changed the game in 3rd test .... On top of that has 164 runs with a decent avg for the conditions. Got out last at Lords where he could have taken Ind towards victory if he had more support 

 

Anyways, I understand that you don't like Pandya but at least appreciate good performance which he put in for team Ind including pulling of a test win .... You won't get a heart attack appreciating a good performance :p:

Edited by zen

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4 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

We became a #1 team by playing 5 bowlers 3 seamers ans 2 Spinners in India. In away matches, we need 3 seamers, with a bowler like Bhuvi and a proper #6 batsman and a  spinner.who can bat like Jadeja or Ashwin. Simple. Pandya is inadequate in Tests , can be a replacement in India only not in SENA.

You are playing 5 proper bowlers and 6 proper batsmen. Who will be the WK?

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49 minutes ago, zen said:

I don't know why would you post this :lol:  ....  Has 10 wkts. Bowled in 6 innings only. So that is a very good performance for a 5th bowler, taking wkts per inning and SR in to account. Changed the game in 3rd test .... On top of that has 164 runs with a decent avg for the conditions. Got out last at Lords where he could have taken Ind towards victory if he had more support 

 

Anyways, I understand that you don't like Pandya but at least appreciate good performance which he put in for team Ind including pulling of a test win .... You won't get a heart attack appreciating a good performance :p:

My personal likes and dislikes have nothing to do with any player. I only like players who perform. It is my opinion that he is neither a good bowler or a good batsman. He took fewest wickets of all the bowlers and his batting was only better than a woefully out of confidence batsman. He in my opinion has no place in the team.

He does display fighting qualities that I do appreciate.

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4 hours ago, SecondSlip said:

We need the batting allrounder to average at least 40 minimum. I am not sure if Jadeja can achieve that so I won't say too much on him. 

Is there anyone in Ranji trophy who is a batsman that will give us 10-15 overs of tight spin bowling? He doesn't even have to be a wickettaker. Just a 5th bowler who comes onto bowl when the 4 fast bowlers need a bit of a break. 

who says that??? How much did Botham average?? He batted mostly at 6th position for his team .Avg:ed only 33.54.

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