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Kapil as a test allrounder

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Was Kapil a consistent all-rounder or an impact all-rounder? 

 

Career summary vs. the strong side during his time:

 

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Career averages
  Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff  
unfiltered 1978-1994 131 5248 163 31.05 8 434 9/83 29.64 23 64 0 1.40 Profile
filtered 1978-1994 115 4584 129 30.15 7 385 9/83 29.96 22 60 0 0.18

 

 

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  Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff  
unfiltered 1978-1994 131 5248 163 31.05 8 434 9/83 29.64 23 64 0 1.40 Profile
filtered 1978-1994 59 2188 129 26.04 3 196 8/85 32.85 12 22 0

-6.80

 

 

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Career averages
  Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff  
unfiltered 1978-1994 131 5248 163 31.05 8 434 9/83 29.64 23 64 0 1.40 Profile
filtered 1978-1993 56 2396 126* 35.23 4 189 9/83 26.97 10 38 0 8.26

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9 minutes ago, Nikola said:

He had to bowl 20 - 25 overs in day and sometimes even more than that. As an all rounder he had alot work load as other trundlers did do their job. Stats sometime don't reveal many things.

Against strong sides, he bowled 4,100 overs in 197 inns, which is around 21 overs per inning (not day) :facepalm:

 

Career averages
  Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10  
unfiltered 1978-1994 131 227 4623.2 1060 12867 434 9/83 11/146 29.64 2.78 63.9 23 2 Profile
filtered 1978-1994 115 197 4099.5 910 11538 385 9/83 11/146 29.96 2.81 63.8 22 2

 

 

PS for perspective, Ind bowling in the 5th test 1st inning 

 

BOWLING O M R W ECON WD NB  
JJ Bumrah 30 9 83 3 2.76 0 0  
I Sharma 31 12 62 3 2.00 0 0  
GH Vihari 1 0 1 0 1.00 0 0  
Mohammed Shami 30 7 72 0 2.40 0 0  
RA Jadeja 30 0 79 4 2.63 0 0
Edited by zen

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Kapil need to be evaluated based on the adversities he had to deal with in  bowling and  based on the position he batted w.r.t batting.

 

for instance take this one data.In his first 21823 balls(almost similar to Botham's 21815) where he averaged 29.11,Kapil's support bowling  unit's combined avg: was only 38.8.For Botham the respective value was only 31.53. See the big difference of 38.8 - 31.53 = 7.27. In other words when ever Kapil played a test till his
first 21823 balls, he bowled along with basically 3 fellow bowlers in general(assuming the team combination is 6 batsmen + 4 bowlers in general for the sake of this situation) who avg:ed 38.8 each, where as for Botham it was only 31.53 !!!!!!!

 

Another factor is work density.

Botham bowled 21815 balls in 14 y,10 m & 19 d that is 5433 days.
Kapil bowled  21823 balls in 11y, 3 m & 21 d that is  4128 days
that is a difference of 1305 days or 31.61%

Work density of Botham is 21815 balls/14.897 years =1464.389 balls/year.

Work densiy of Kapil  in first 21823 balls/11.308 years = 1929.873 balls/year.
Means 1929.873-1464.389= 465.484.So every year Kapil had to bowl 465.484/1464.389 = 31.79% more the no: of balls Botham had to bowl till his first 21823 balls, which is a big difference.

 

 

 

Edited by rtmohanlal

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19 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Kapil need to be evaluated based on the adversities he had to deal with in  bowling and  based on the position he batted w.r.t batting.

 

for instance take this one data.In his first 21823 balls(almost similar to Botham's 21815) where he averaged 29.11,Kapil's support bowling  unit's combined avg: was only 38.8.For Botham the respective value was only 31.53. See the big difference of 38.8 - 31.53 = 7.27. In other words when ever Kapil played a test till his
first 21823 balls, he bowled along with basically 3 fellow bowlers in general(assuming the team combination is 6 batsmen + 4 bowlers in general) who avg:ed 38.8 each, where as for Botham it was only 31.53 !!!!!!!

 

Another factor is work density.

Botham bowled 21815 balls in 14 y,10 m & 19 d that is 5433 days.
Kapil bowled  21823 balls in 11y, 3 m & 21 d that is  4128 days
that is a difference of 1305 days or 31.61%

Work density of Botham is 21815 balls/14.897 years =1464.389 balls/year.

Work densiy of Kapil  in first 21823 balls/11.308 years = 1929.873 balls/year.
Means 1929.873-1464.389= 465.484.So every year Kapil had to bowl 465.484/1464.389 = 31.79% more the no: of balls Botham had to bowl till his first 21823 balls, which is a big difference.

 

 

 

Your work density of balls bowled per year are wrong 

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I would say Kapil Dev was the best cricketer India has ever produced from those i have watched across decades (Vishy, Sunny, Sachin, Dravid,  Kohli).  

 

(1).No cricketer ever has one gone to WI in 1982/83 and dominated that worlds best pace attack in history of test cricket like the ATG all-rounder Kapil Dev..... without helmet. Sunny and Mohinder Amarnath have scored a ton against this pace quartet in same series, but no all-rounder has ever batted as well against those bowlers. His 100* against the bowling lineup of Andy Roberts, Malcolm Marshall, Joel Garner and Michael Holding.  He did that in 95 balls.  I doubt anyone in world cricket has scored at more than run a ball against the best pace attack in history of cricket at their home grounds. What was more significant that it ensured India could draw the test.Mohinder Amarnath too scored a ton in that second innings.  

 

(2.)His 9 wickets for 90 odd runs in an innings against WI remains the best pace bowling innings performance i have ever seen on the flat Ahmedabad wicket. I doubt any Indian pace bowler has ever taken a 9 wicket haul in a test innings.  Grenidge, Gomes, Richards, Lloyd were some of the main wickets he took.  Only Anil Kumble has picked 10 fer in innings against Pakistan at Kotla  which probably everyone is aware, but for an Indian pacer  Kapils 9 fer remains an unbroken record till date.

 

(3)His 175 in knockout match when we were 17/5 against Zimbabwe was fascinating. That counter attacking innings was something which Viv Richards would have been very happy.  Without that innings, the India would not have made the WC finals.

 

(4) His catch to dismiss Viv Richards in the final was a wonderful running catch. That wicket of Viv had a lot of say in our win.
 

I could go on an on about the impact player that Kapil paaji was but these are the top 4 efforts i remember from watching him play.  iirc he played 62 tests without a break, the rested for one test and then again played 63 tests without any break. No other all-rounder in history of this game was as fit as Kapil Dev. Gotta remember he did most of the bowling for India as well with his medium pace. No wonder he is a ATG all-rounder.

 

 

Edited by Straight Drive

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On 9/10/2018 at 10:52 AM, rtmohanlal said:

Kapil need to be evaluated based on the adversities he had to deal with in  bowling and  based on the position he batted w.r.t batting.

 

for instance take this one data.In his first 21823 balls(almost similar to Botham's 21815) where he averaged 29.11,Kapil's support bowling  unit's combined avg: was only 38.8.For Botham the respective value was only 31.53. See the big difference of 38.8 - 31.53 = 7.27. In other words when ever Kapil played a test till his
first 21823 balls, he bowled along with basically 3 fellow bowlers in general(assuming the team combination is 6 batsmen + 4 bowlers in general for the sake of this situation) who avg:ed 38.8 each, where as for Botham it was only 31.53 !!!!!!!

 

Another factor is work density.

Botham bowled 21815 balls in 14 y,10 m & 19 d that is 5433 days.
Kapil bowled  21823 balls in 11y, 3 m & 21 d that is  4128 days
that is a difference of 1305 days or 31.61%

Work density of Botham is 21815 balls/14.897 years =1464.389 balls/year.

Work densiy of Kapil  in first 21823 balls/11.308 years = 1929.873 balls/year.
Means 1929.873-1464.389= 465.484.So every year Kapil had to bowl 465.484/1464.389 = 31.79% more the no: of balls Botham had to bowl till his first 21823 balls, which is a big difference.

 

 

 

Can you give an analysis viz a viz Imran Khan?

Edited by Rightarmfast

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On 9/10/2018 at 10:52 AM, rtmohanlal said:

Kapil need to be evaluated based on the adversities he had to deal with in  bowling and  based on the position he batted w.r.t batting.

 

for instance take this one data.In his first 21823 balls(almost similar to Botham's 21815) where he averaged 29.11,Kapil's support bowling  unit's combined avg: was only 38.8.For Botham the respective value was only 31.53. See the big difference of 38.8 - 31.53 = 7.27. In other words when ever Kapil played a test till his
first 21823 balls, he bowled along with basically 3 fellow bowlers in general(assuming the team combination is 6 batsmen + 4 bowlers in general for the sake of this situation) who avg:ed 38.8 each, where as for Botham it was only 31.53 !!!!!!!

 

Another factor is work density.

Botham bowled 21815 balls in 14 y,10 m & 19 d that is 5433 days.
Kapil bowled  21823 balls in 11y, 3 m & 21 d that is  4128 days
that is a difference of 1305 days or 31.61%

Work density of Botham is 21815 balls/14.897 years =1464.389 balls/year.

Work densiy of Kapil  in first 21823 balls/11.308 years = 1929.873 balls/year.
Means 1929.873-1464.389= 465.484.So every year Kapil had to bowl 465.484/1464.389 = 31.79% more the no: of balls Botham had to bowl till his first 21823 balls, which is a big difference.

 

 

 

 

chetta .. i am 99.98% sure that you have got plenty of time to burn :hatsoff:

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4 hours ago, velu said:

 

chetta .. i am 99.98% sure that you have got plenty of time to burn :hatsoff:

Appreciate the level of analysis.. these type of analysis and stats are rare to find even in wisden

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On 9/10/2018 at 2:34 AM, Nikola said:

He had to bowl 20 - 25 overs in day and sometimes even more than that. As an all rounder he had alot work load as other trundlers didn't do their job. Stats sometime don't reveal many things.

He used to bowl accurately too, creating pressure which other bowlers reaped the benefit of. Another fact which stats don't reveal.

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6 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Can you give an analysis viz a viz Imran Khan?

TRCTBI - total runs conceded,the bowler included
TWTTBI - total wickets taken,the bowler included
RCBTB -  runs conceeded by the bowler
WTBTB -  wickets taken by the bowler
TRCTBE - total runs conceded,the bowler excluded (support bowling strength)
TWTTBE - total wickets taken,the bowler excluded (support bowling strength)

 

 

 

bowler TRCTBI   TWTTBI   avg:    RCBTB    WTBTB  avg:   TRCTBE    TWTTBE    avg:

Imran  39354      1297    30.34     8258       362    22.81    31096        935        33.26 //full career stats of Imran

kapil     61403      1730    35.49   12867      434    29.64    48536       1296       37.45 //full career stats of Kapil

kapil     46175      1292    35.74   10222      354    28.87    35953         938       38.33  //till 20 nov 89 where Kapil bowled first 21000

                                                                                                                                     //balls & avg:ed 28.87

 

Above is the data . Here too , though not as much a difference  when compared to that of  Botham,  the difference is still  5.07  

in his first 21000 balls against Kapil .From that point on wards  till his career end,  with the arrival of Kumble,Srinath etc to assist him

he got better support so that his career end  bowl support avg: gets increased to 37.45

 

 

w.r.t work density , there is no need to even go for it because Imran bowled his 19500+ balls in long 21 years where as Kapil bowled his 27740 balls in just 15 y & 5 m.

Edited by rtmohanlal

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6 hours ago, velu said:

 

chetta .. i am 99.98% sure that you have got plenty of time to burn :hatsoff:

 

2 hours ago, neel roy said:

Appreciate the level of analysis.. these type of analysis and stats are rare to find even in wisden

this is simple data filtration mates . We can derive these stats from cricinfo itself. Only small basic calculations remained to be done.That's all.

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On 9/10/2018 at 10:52 AM, rtmohanlal said:

Kapil need to be evaluated based on the adversities he had to deal with in  bowling and  based on the position he batted w.r.t batting.

 

for instance take this one data.In his first 21823 balls(almost similar to Botham's 21815) where he averaged 29.11,Kapil's support bowling  unit's combined avg: was only 38.8.For Botham the respective value was only 31.53. See the big difference of 38.8 - 31.53 = 7.27. In other words when ever Kapil played a test till his
first 21823 balls, he bowled along with basically 3 fellow bowlers in general(assuming the team combination is 6 batsmen + 4 bowlers in general for the sake of this situation) who avg:ed 38.8 each, where as for Botham it was only 31.53 !!!!!!!

 

Another factor is work density.

Botham bowled 21815 balls in 14 y,10 m & 19 d that is 5433 days.
Kapil bowled  21823 balls in 11y, 3 m & 21 d that is  4128 days
that is a difference of 1305 days or 31.61%

Work density of Botham is 21815 balls/14.897 years =1464.389 balls/year.

Work densiy of Kapil  in first 21823 balls/11.308 years = 1929.873 balls/year.
Means 1929.873-1464.389= 465.484.So every year Kapil had to bowl 465.484/1464.389 = 31.79% more the no: of balls Botham had to bowl till his first 21823 balls, which is a big difference.

 

 

 

meanwhile shahid afridi bowling donkey balls!!!

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1 hour ago, Temujin Khaghan said:

also he will give you his bank account details, first pay him something before giving such homework...

can't simply understand  what's the problem here.... a bit confused:ohmy:

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Kapil's stats do not do the man's talent justice. With that said, he has only himself to blame for playing way too long (esp with respect to bowling). In a stronger team like WI, Oz or Pak of that era, I reckon his stats would have looked much better.

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34 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Kapil's stats do not do the man's talent justice. With that said, he has only himself to blame for playing way too long (esp with respect to bowling). In a stronger team like WI, Oz or Pak of that era, I reckon his stats would have looked much better.

you are completely wrong. That is plain nonsense that Kapil played too long  just for the  sake of breaking Hadlee's record. Yes that might had been one of his intentions , but the truth was that he was still  so much  eligible  to be at the least the 11th member of that team. If we go thru series wise stats of Kapil in his last few years , we can observe this. He performed either with  the bat or ball, to be more precise his  'batting+ bowling' contribution was more than enough to  make him deserving to be part of the team. 

 

I think we need to take these adversities as the contexts he played in and evaluate him accordingly  rather than just taking plain stats.

That's why Kapil for me at least  is  the top all rounder of the FAB 4 of the 80s.

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13 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

I would say Kapil Dev was the best cricketer India has ever produced from those i have watched across decades (Vishy, Sunny, Sachin, Dravid,  Kohli).  

 

(1).No cricketer ever has one gone to WI in 1982/83 and dominated that worlds best pace attack in history of test cricket like the ATG all-rounder Kapil Dev..... without helmet. Sunny and Mohinder Amarnath have scored a ton against this pace quartet in same series, but no all-rounder has ever batted as well against those bowlers. His 100* against the bowling lineup of Andy Roberts, Malcolm Marshall, Joel Garner and Michael Holding.  He did that in 95 balls.  I doubt anyone in world cricket has scored at more than run a ball against the best pace attack in history of cricket at their home grounds. What was more significant that it ensured India could draw the test.Mohinder Amarnath too scored a ton in that second innings.  

 

(2.)His 9 wickets for 90 odd runs in an innings against WI remains the best pace bowling innings performance i have ever seen on the flat Ahmedabad wicket. I doubt any Indian pace bowler has ever taken a 9 wicket haul in a test innings.  Grenidge, Gomes, Richards, Lloyd were some of the main wickets he took.  Only Anil Kumble has picked 10 fer in innings against Pakistan at Kotla  which probably everyone is aware, but for an Indian pacer  Kapils 9 fer remains an unbroken record till date.

 

(3)His 175 in knockout match when we were 17/5 against Zimbabwe was fascinating. That counter attacking innings was something which Viv Richards would have been very happy.  Without that innings, the India would not have made the WC finals.

 

(4) His catch to dismiss Viv Richards in the final was a wonderful running catch. That wicket of Viv had a lot of say in our win.
 

I could go on an on about the impact player that Kapil paaji was but these are the top 4 efforts i remember from watching him play.  iirc he played 62 tests without a break, the rested for one test and then again played 63 tests without any break. No other all-rounder in history of this game was as fit as Kapil Dev. Gotta remember he did most of the bowling for India as well with his medium pace. No wonder he is a ATG all-rounder.

 

 

To add to these his '4 sixes in one over' to avoid follow on, being the top all rounder in 2 world cups(83 & 92 ... Kapil was in every sense  the Maradona of the 83 world cup), brilliant all round performance against the GOAT WI  team abroad  in 1983 series(bat avg: of 42.33 & str: rate of almost  above 95 , bowl avg: of 24+) , 129 runs at 31/6  in a team total of 215 in SAF when the test was almost lost  etc etc. This man's career was full  of such magic moments. In short ,when every body found it easy to  thrive Kapil  often recklessly   threw it away. On the other hand when every body  found it hard to survive ,Kapil   thrived  often in those adversities.

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4 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

you are completely wrong. That is plain nonsense that Kapil played too long  just for the  sake of breaking Hadlee's record. Yes that might had been one of his intentions , but the truth was that he was still  so much  eligible  to be at the least the 11th member of that team. If we go thru series wise stats of Kapil in his last few years , we can observe this. He performed either with  the bat or ball, to be more precise his  'batting+ bowling' contribution was more than enough to  make him deserving to be part of the team. 

 

I think we need to take these adversities as the contexts he played in and evaluate him accordingly  rather than just taking plain stats.

That's why Kapil for me at least  is  the top all rounder of the FAB 4 of the 80s.

I am not downplaying Kapil's achievements in the least. Just saying that his bowling declined in effectiveness with age. Yes, his avg remained roughly the same as before, but he could not bowl extended spells as he did before - if you look, he was averaging around 2+ wkts per match because his no. of overs went down.

 

Of the fab 4, Botham in his first 1/3 to 1/2 of his career was a beast. Superb bowling and robust lower-order batting, but he was quite poor against the best team of his period. Imran's best batting came when he was past his peak as a bowler and vice-versa. However, if one includes his captaincy and record against top teams, I think he does very well. Hadlee does not deserve to be mentioned alongside the other 3 - he was a better bowler than the trio, but his batting was pretty ordinary. I'd put Clive Rice as the 4th member of the fab 4. He was a batting all-rounder, but he could have a genuine impact with the ball.

 

If one goes to the 1960s and 1970s, Proctor was better than any of these all-rounders as far as his bowling was concerned. His batting was somewhat inconsistent, but he could hit purple patches at times and win matches with the bat. Lots of great all-rounders back in the day, and Kapil was up there with all of them.

 

I think India has only had two genuine match-winning allrounders, who could win games with bat and with ball. One, of course, was Kapil but the second (mostly neglected/forgotten) is mankad. We won very few games those days, and mostly against weak teams, but if you look at his record in wins, it was phenomenal. Avg 40+ as an opener and played the role of both workhorse and strike bowler manfully.

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Check the bowling unit from 1979 up until Srinath and Kumble came in 1990-91. Forget seamers, we did not even have decent spinners. Maninder, Shivlal Yadav, Arshad Ayub - all I remember is them bowling 50-60 overs innings after innings.

 

That Kapil continued to play well into 1990s was itself a miracle.

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13 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

To add to these his '4 sixes in one over' to avoid follow on, being the top all rounder in 2 world cups(83 & 92 ... Kapil was in every sense  the Maradona of the 83 world cup), brilliant all round performance against the GOAT WI  team abroad  in 1983 series(bat avg: of 42.33 & str: rate of almost  above 95 , bowl avg: of 24+) , 129 runs at 31/6  in a team total of 215 in SAF when the test was almost lost  etc etc. This man's career was full  of such magic moments. In short ,when every body found it easy to  thrive Kapil  often recklessly   threw it away. On the other hand when every body  found it hard to survive ,Kapil   thrived  often in those adversities.

Yup, that was another impact innings. 4 sixers against Eddie Hemmings at Lords in the test which Gooch scored 333.  Having Narendra Hirwani as the last man batting with him, he played two dot balls and remaining 4 balls were tonked for 24 runs to avoid the follow-on.England did won the test but it was another innings which Kapil Dev showed he could do give extra ordinary performances. Hirwani got out the next ball he faced.

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He came across very nonchalant as a batsman. Maybe that was his style of batting like Sehwag or didn't want to put too much energy towards batting due to his heavy workload as a bowler.

 

He had 8 high quality test hundreds and 25 odd half-centuries. If Pandya can achieve half of that as a batsman, India would be very well served.

 

I'd rate Kapil's batting higher than Yuvraj/Rohit's test batting.

Edited by GolGappe

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