The dumb math of playing the extra batsman

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, Clarke said:

 

I don't fully disagree with the reality you present about bowlers. Having said that, they should be able to bowl ~20 overs a day for 2-3 tests, not 5 and that's where the pool of bowlers comes in. That is the very essence of a test fast/seam bowler, that stamina for running in with the second new ball after the team's managed 3-4 wickets only in 80 overs. 

 

I have expressed my viewpoint on rotating pacers in an earlier post.

 

7 minutes ago, Clarke said:

No one though seems to be wary of batting going up **** creek in a bad session. There have been cases when even Yuvraj of all test batsmen rescued the side after a tough first session on a green top blew away the top and middle order. It seems no one remembers VVS' performances at #6. 

 

We need to choose only those batsmen for tests, who have a good off stump game and short ball game and are known to be gritty.   And not the A-team or Ranji top performers only.   

 

Then, 5 specialist batsmen would suffice, especially if Pant settles in at 6. 

 

[Global.Baba]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

But we have won with them 

We won With pandya in SA n ENg, binny in eng

 

point is - pujara, rahane , opners has to take charge....if they are not dnt add batsman replace them

to much workload on ur bowler will break them , and incases of injuries in matches it ll be worse

 

Look at the numbers of overs bumrah n shami had to bowl in last test of a long series, after ages u found bowlers who can clock 140+ let them bowl at full steam

 

Pant is good enough as 6th batsman + pandya+ ashiwn/jadeja+ bhuvi is enough batting but provided batsman make runs 

If they are not making drop them not ur plans

why is pandya being dropped for pujara, rahane n dhawan issue

Pujara made 100+ 70 and thats its 

Pandya took a fifer + 50 

Dhawan did nothing

Rahane 1,2 innings

 

So not much to choose....atleast pandya gave balance and even showed more application with bat in 1st 2 test to . If these guys are not makung runs drop them. Also pandya is not the only option keep shankar also in their

What is Pandya’s accountability? Is he expected to perform with the bat or ball?

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Actually WI play 2  “allrounders” in their X1 like Jason Holder and Brathwaite.

 

Infact Holder has achieved a lot more than Pandya in tests :)

 

we we know how their team is doing 

Pandya has played 11 test 

 

batting avg- 31.29 

bowling- 31.06

 

Holder after 11 test 

batting - 28.05

bowling - 37.29

 

Sorry pandya is ahead , lets see where pandya stands after 34 games as holder has played that much

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, Global.Baba said:

What is Pandya’s accountability? Is he expected to perform with the bat or ball?

 

 

in 1st season i have low expectation from youngsters

he has shown enough good signs and thats ok for me as of now and same with pant , Rahul ( they havent been consitent)

 

93 in SA

5-fer in england, 3 wkts in 2nd test + 2 wkts in Sa when needed in 1st 

100 in SL

Runs when we collapsed agaisnt afghan

 

 

My prob is with Pujara

3 tours of Sa, 2 tours of eng, 1- aus,nz, wi- whats his perfomance that i shud go after these young kids who are still in their 1st cycle 

 

My prob with kohli who plays dhawan n rohit overseas on god knws what criteria 

 

My prob is with rahane - 

coz now runs have dried at home n he is still inconsitent overseas

 

ppl struggling in their 2nd cycle and i shud go after youngs players in 1st cycle........thats not how u shud make players. They are jst finding feet and playing in toughest of the toughest condition .....i have a lot of patience for these young player

 

[Global.Baba]

7 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Pandya has played 11 test 

 

batting avg- 31.29 

bowling- 31.06

 

Holder after 11 test 

batting - 28.05

bowling - 37.29

 

Sorry pandya is ahead , lets see where pandya stands after 34 games as holder has played that much

What is this after 11 games comparison? If you keep doing that then a lot of young players will be ahead of some ATGs.

 

Anyways despite being captain,Holder has a spot in his side  due to the lack of resources in WI.  He is a better quality bat and bowler  than a lot of other reserve players in WI.

 

With Pandya there are 100s of better batsmen and bowlers than him in domestics who can contribute in 1 area so much that we may not even need the 2nd skill.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Global.Baba

[Clarke]

13 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

 

But with the current batting line up if you're going in with only 5 specialist batsmen you're pretty much losing the game at the toss itself if you field first. We have seen it time and time again. More often than not 3 pacers and 1 spinner would suffice overseas. Pandya can come in when we are playing on roads. Otherwise I'd much rather play 6 batsmen or at least wait until Pant develops into a capable no. 6 who averages ~ 40. 

Not just field first, bat first and a fiery spell or poor batting could have us play catch up for the next 5 days as well. I shudder to think if Kohli had an ordinary tour this time, he was probably the only batsmen they have had to analyze across the series. 

[Jimmy Cliff]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

But we have won with them 

We won With pandya in SA n ENg, binny in eng

 

point is - pujara, rahane , opners has to take charge....if they are not dnt add batsman replace them

to much workload on ur bowler will break them , and incases of injuries in matches it ll be worse

 

Look at the numbers of overs bumrah n shami had to bowl in last test of a long series, after ages u found bowlers who can clock 140+ let them bowl at full steam

 

Pant is good enough as 6th batsman + pandya+ ashiwn/jadeja+ bhuvi is enough batting but provided batsman make runs 

If they are not making drop them not ur plans

why is pandya being dropped for pujara, rahane n dhawan issue

Pujara made 100+ 70 and thats its 

Pandya took a fifer + 50 

Dhawan did nothing

Rahane 1,2 innings

 

So not much to choose....atleast pandya gave balance and even showed more application with bat in 1st 2 test to . If these guys are not makung runs drop them. Also pandya is not the only option keep shankar also in their

When did we win with these guys while fielding first? That's what I said, if you're going in with just 5 batsmen, you better bat first because with this top 5, you're not gonna win anything while chasing against decent sides. Even if the entire batting line-up is replaced barring Kohli, the noobs will still need time to settle in to their roles and you'd still struggle with just 5 specialist batsmen. Pandya right now is a luxury player that we can't afford more often that not.

[coffee_rules]

We lost 2 tests 31 runs and 60 runs because of the limitation in the combination. Pacers (3) and Spinner did fine , our lower MO batting was the key difference in the first and fourth test. After Rahane, it was Pandya/Pant/DK walking didn't give any confidence to go over the small score. The same happened even in SA, 2 tests where we could have crossed with a specialist batsman. Pandya's bowling is hit ot miss, while batting is miss in tough conditions, he might score a few 50s here and there in the 3rd innings when it js mostly useless.

[express bowling]

12 minutes ago, Clarke said:

Maybe the players need to be conditioned towards workload management and horses for courses. The english were ready for that at the start of the series, we should grow up as well. Decisions are always dependent on the circumstances, we did see Anderson complete the 5 tests at the age of 36 and from the look of it he could go for another two. 

 

The English said it only.   Have they actually done it  with any regularity in the past   ?

 

I don't think any player anywhere agrees to sit out voluntarily unless he is a reigning superstar assured of a spot.  Players hide injuries even and play on so that a new guy does not come in.  That is the reality. Look at the Ashwin case ... played 4th test despite injury ... forced to sit out in the 5th.  Jaddu comes in and scores a 80 odd and takes 7 wickets.  Now, Jaddu is the No.1 spinner overseas for the time being.

 

12 minutes ago, Clarke said:

Good thing you mentioned Rabada; when Steyn went missing in the first innings of that iconic test, 3 primary bowlers including Rabada more than covered up for him. Rabada bowled 20/70 & 31/119 overs in that game. 

 

Can happen in 1 match and not regularly.  Even our pacers did it here ... but cant do it for full series.

[Global.Baba]

Vihari scored a 50 and took 3 wickets and  went wicketless and scored a duck in the 2nd innings. We all think of  it as an average performance because the expectation was him to score a lot more even though the wickets were a bonus.

 

If it was Pandya then some fans here would be creating histograms and pie charts of how useful Pandya is lol

[prasen82]

I get your point but sorry hardik is not the answer. Hardik should be competing against bhuvi, jadeja and ashwin for 5th bowler spot. 

 

Openers, Dhawan and rahane were free riders this series along with wicketkeeper batsman sans last innings. But pandya is not the solution. 

 

We will drop rahane and dhawan get shaw and bhuvi/ vijayshankar .  This team will look great. 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Pandya has played 11 test 

 

batting avg- 31.29 

bowling- 31.06

 

Holder after 11 test 

batting - 28.05

bowling - 37.29

 

Sorry pandya is ahead , lets see where pandya stands after 34 games as holder has played that much

What I like about Pandya is that he can bowl at 140+ and hit test 100s, which is a rare quality among Ind players 

 

If we optimize our batting and bowling slots, we would have accounted for consistency. So what players such as Pandya, esp. in the early phase, can do is work as impact player at times and like a Swiss Army Knife at times to provide that edge and/or balance to the team .... With time, as he improves, consistency and performances will come naturally 

 

Right now, we want to play our struggling specialists and select players to bail these TTF out. This puts unnecessary pressure on youngsters such as Pant and Pandya 

[Ankit_sharma03]

Just now, Global.Baba said:

What is this after 11 games comparison? If you do that of young players will be ahead of some ATGs.

So how do u compare someone who has played 11 games with 34.....

Just now, Global.Baba said:

 

Anyways despite being captain,Holder has a spot in his side  due to the lack of resources in WI.  He is a better quality bat and bowler  than a lot of other reserve players in WI.

And do we have a better option as all rounder then pandya

Just now, Global.Baba said:

 

With Pandya there are 100s of better batsmen and bowlers than him in domestics who can contribute in 1 area a much that we may not even need the 2nd skill.

may be but as package none better and we need a package 

Pandya has proven to be a better batsman then dhawan , rohit overseas who are still among top batsman in country ....so dnt exaggerate 100 batsman. 

Apart from kohli all these so called batsman were struggling to make a 50 in Sa and this guy made a 93 

 

Umesh, shami, ishant, Zaheer khan- none got a fifer in their 1st england tour 

 

Baba here is gyaan of the Day- naam pe mat jao kaam pe jaao

[Vilander]

26 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Let us look at this game, Vihari got us 3 bonus wickets and even though I am still 50-50 on him as a batsman but when he came to bat the expectation on him was to score a 100. Not because he is bradman but that’s a way it should be when any frontline batsman comes to play. With Pandya we hail 30-40 as a bonus.

 

Similarly a frontline bowler expectation should be that he takes 5 wicket haul every time he bowls.

 

adding a 6th batsman in absence of a genuine 5th bowler who can bat is the way to go.

this is top post

 

this is the key for an alrounder.

 

Somehow when Stokes comes to bowl - he looks like he is going to get a wicket and when he bats he looks like he will face a 100 deliveries --> alrounder Pandya - when he comes in its "will he bowl well is this a rhythm day or not, will he bat well will his logs work this time".

 

Vihari when he bats - expect him to bat long - bowls - meh pray he does not get hit for 6's.

[Global.Baba]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

So how do u compare someone who has played 11 games with 34.....

And do we have a better option as all rounder then pandya

may be but as package none better and we need a package 

Pandya has proven to be a better batsman then dhawan , rohit overseas who are still among top batsman in country ....so dnt exaggerate 100 batsman. 

Apart from kohli all these so called batsman were struggling to make a 50 in Sa and this guy made a 93 

 

Umesh, shami, ishant, Zaheer khan- none got a fifer in their 1st england tour 

 

Baba here is gyaan of the Day- naam pe mat jao kaam pe jaao

His 5 wicket was a fine spell of bowling but he blew hot and cold the next test itself. You see such magical spells by a lot of parttimers

as well many times.

 

His batting was average at best.

 

There is no specialist role as an allrounder, if a bowler can bat or a batsman can bowl it is a bonus.

 

Even England struggles many times because they have too many allrounders just for the sake of it.

 

 

[coffee_rules]

He doesn't fit the classic allrounder. They have to be held accountable for one role - batting or bowling as a shoe-in into the team. Is he the 6th batsman or a third seamer? Neither. 

 

Don't tell me we need 4 seamers all the time. Oval was exception with no swing , where their main bowlers had given up, during mid-day. Not all pitches are flat. With swing and seam, we need 4 bowlers and not 4 seamers. 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Even England struggles many times because they have too many allrounders just for the sake of it.

Teams have different strengths and weaknesses ....  there is not much to complain if we optimize our 5 batting and 4 bowling slots 

Edited September 11, 2018 by zen

[Jimmy Cliff]

27 minutes ago, zen said:

The argument is that 6th batsman is needed since our batting is weak. But if the 6th batsman is that good, he should replace one of the struggling batsman and provide Ind with an improved batting line up .... which is why I said "optimize" the 5 batting slots and the 4 bowling slots first to determine what can work. Without optimizing, and adding w/o subtracting is not benefiting Ind considering its current strengths and weaknesses 

I'd rather "optimize" the batting by picking the best 6 batsmen available but that's just me .

[coffee_rules]

If  Bhuvi is in, Pandya will need to be out. Shami/Yadav/Ishant are better bowlers than "KapilDev" while Bhuvi can hit test 50s as well "Sobers".

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

His 5 wicket was a fine spell of bowling but he blew hot and cold the next test itself. You see such magical spells by a lot of parttimers

as well many times.

Who didnt 

pujara did 

rahane has his whole career

vijay has 

 

N how many times we will use these fluke like ref

his 93 was a fluke ( so why dnt other get a fluke)

his 5 wkt is like what part timers do ( he took 3 wkts in a game before to what happened to our bowlers in that , ill gladly take if some one keeps on producing magic like that )

 

About being consistent- no one is apart from kohli , bumrah and now somewhat ishant 

which shows how tough conditions are and how unfair some ppl expectation on young players are

2 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

His batting was average at best.

Atleast had more application then senior batsman        

and also i forgot to add ur 100 batsman thing

 

Please do follow A tours-

Pandya on A tour to Aus made 70+ on green top against moving pink ball where our all next line A batsman failed 

so their is a lot of good signs he shud be invested in .

 

Problem isnt pandya but non perfoming seniors, had they done today we might have had won....If they become consistent pandya + pant will look like huge assets in lower order

 

For god sake they are young kids dnt expect them to be the pillars of the team right now

2 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

There is no specialist role as an allrounder, if a bowler can bat or a batsman can bowl it is a bonus.

A role is what team needs not whats in the books 

Dravid was no specialist keeper but team needed and he did

Shastri n parbhakar were no specialist opener but they did 

 

2 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Even England struggles many times because they have too many allrounders just for the sake of it.

We are not talking about many we are talking about 1

England to shud 1st get specialist right then question those all rounder atleast they contribute