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#MeToo India 2.0

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1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 Sure there are some odd instances where man could be framed. But those are not norms. 

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/story/false-rape-cases-in-delhi-delhi-commission-of-women-233222-2014-12-29

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/jaipur/crime-city-43-rape-cases-that-we-solved-in-2016-were-false-say-police/articleshow/56748082.cms

Not odd instances this is a menace in India thanks to 2013 amendment. That's why you see a lot of men in India being critical of "always believe her" because they have seen how this is ruining lives of innocent men. 

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1 minute ago, Number said:

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/story/false-rape-cases-in-delhi-delhi-commission-of-women-233222-2014-12-29

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/jaipur/crime-city-43-rape-cases-that-we-solved-in-2016-were-false-say-police/articleshow/56748082.cms

Not odd instances this is a menace in India thanks to 2013 amendment. That's why you see a lot of men in India being critical of "always believe her" because they have seen how this is ruining lives of innocent men. 

57% are true then?   why do you  support the 43%?

30 men raped a 11 year old girl for 6 months

5 guys raped a girl in a running bus pulling her intestines out and tossing her out

A 20 plus year old guy raped a 7 year old neighbour and tossed her body away and later killed his own mother

Look at the celebrities

Since 2017 , 252 celebrities were found to indulge in sexual harassment.

 

How many women are in the above list

 

https://www.vox.com/a/sexual-harassment-assault-allegations-list

 

That is why you have to check the credibility of the witness and see if there are any other ulterior motives. In the entertainment industry, it is much more common that women are subjected to this. Even way back in the 1950s Indian men directors asked the actresses to pose nude before casting. There is some evidence for that.  

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13 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

57% are true then?   why do you  support the 43%?

30 men raped a 11 year old girl for 6 months

5 guys raped a girl in a running bus pulling her intestines out and tossing her out

A 20 plus year old guy raped a 7 year old neighbour and tossed her body away and later killed his own mother

Look at the celebrities

Since 2017 , 252 celebrities were found to indulge in sexual harassment.

 

How many women are in the above list

 

https://www.vox.com/a/sexual-harassment-assault-allegations-list

 

That is why you have to check the credibility of the witness and see if there are any other ulterior motives. In the entertainment industry, it is much more common that women are subjected to this. Even way back in the 1950s Indian men directors asked the actresses to pose nude before casting. There is some evidence for that.  

Not supporting anything just saying 43% does not count as "odd instance". This is a menace and every man in India has right to be paranoid about "just believe her".

 

 

Edited by Number

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9 minutes ago, Number said:

One thing I feel is the punishment for rape must be totally overhauled.

For any age it should be surgical castration if possible even without anaesthesia. 

punitive punishment is far less of a detriment than better education.

Simple reality is, Indians need to talk about sex and sexual conduct with their children. Something that 99.9% Indian parents STILL dont do.

 

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23 minutes ago, Number said:

That I agree but I feel these two are completely different issues. 

The measure to reduce unreported cases can't be blind arrest and charge-sheet the accused. 

Also looking for absolute proof and letting creeps wander around based on this presumption will only embolden them. There is a risk for some group of people. But you police can investigate and clear them. But what about the trauma that a girl has to go through for the rest of her life? Do you think men are held to a higher standard as women? Men sleeping with multiple women is not really viewed as a crime or shame. In fact some consider it as an achievement. But would you say the same about women? If we continue operating under an "assumption" that every reported case is false we won't have a solution. I still doubt that statistics of 43%. What are the odds that they were considered because of the status of persons involved or the woman was not smart enough to corroborate her story. 

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1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

beating her car with car with camera n jumping on is mob incidence

4 actor, bhai konsi dunia men rehta hia .....wo kaam chodh ke kyun jayegi

she leave the money n fame that comes with item number, also item number gets u shows which is more money

 

aur ye jo iska explaination hai fraud hai, thats how u react like a gawar 

 

ye iss cameraman ki reality

 

 

3-3 eye witness aa chuke hia , par tumne kasam kha rkhi ki wo sahi nhin ho sakti kyun wo actress hai, on face blunt hia

Vanita women looks soft so she wud be innocent

 

why cnt both be innocent, image pe mat jao 

Even a prostitute has a right to complain against harrasment , then tanushree is an artist 

 

 

They are not first hand accounts. Look at what the Wasim char is saying..he came, there was a commotion and he heard workers say that "Sir ne aisa karna nahin chahiye tha..." That is your proof.  Calling him CHindi CHor, ya she is a classy credible witness. ATleast raise the charges in a decent way..not like a road side aukatless woman. 

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3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 Do you think men are held to a higher standard as women? Men sleeping with multiple women is not really viewed as a crime or shame. 

A rape accused is viewed completely different from a man sleeping with multiple women. 

A mere accusation of rape will make someone cut all his ties with relatives and friends and he will lose his job probably.

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15 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

They are not first hand accounts. Look at what the Wasim char is saying..he came, there was a commotion and he heard workers say that "Sir ne aisa karna nahin chahiye tha..." That is your proof.  Calling him CHindi CHor, ya she is a classy credible witness. ATleast raise the charges in a decent way..not like a road side aukatless woman. 

Uske chindi chor bulane se nana harraser nhin ho jata

if he has harrased, he shud be called even Behen ka L**DA , aise logo ke liye kahe ki tameez

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Uske chindi chor bulane se nana harraser nhin ho jata

if he has harrased, he shud be called even Behen ka L**DA , aise logo ke liye kahe ki tameez

 

 

I am not supporting Coffee's POV here, but the idea of 'ayese logo ke liye kahe ki tameez' is an extremely problematic way of looking at things. Tameez shows who YOU are. Not who THEY are. Showing respect simply shows that YOU are a respectful person. Showing disrespect is showing YOU are a disrespectful person. 

 

In my personal life, i've lost my $hit many times, but i rarely, if EVER use a cuss word, unless its for fun and games. Never called anyone BC,MC, C-word, etc in anger. Why ? Because i don't need to. using normal words to insult and rip a person apart is far more effective than losing your cool and having verbal diahrea of cuss words. 

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24 minutes ago, Number said:

A rape accused is viewed completely different from a man sleeping with multiple women. 

A mere accusation of rape will make someone cut all his ties with relatives and friends and he will lose his job probably.

WHether it is false or true it has to start with "Mere accusation".  There is a risk of someone having a bad name.  It will only hurt his name. But not reporting will hurt the society, herself, her family, future victims. There is much more at stake. I would encourage every little girl, girl to report any inappropriate touching. They should start weeding these guys out. They should instill fear. There are so many good men. Girls understand that. They don't blame the entire opposite sex.  Personally, this is a universal problem. But due to excessive population, poverty, vast amount of cultural differences, it is much more prevalent in India. There are more incidents, cases. If you ask me Entertainment industry is designed for female exploitation.  You have so much leverage to do everything behind the cover. There is so much scope for exploitation. We only hear these stories from a reasonably well known artists. Think about those who never saw the light in the film industry. I do have a reasonable amount of connection with movie industry. Behind the scene exploitation is sickening.

 

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23 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I am not supporting Coffee's POV here, but the idea of 'ayese logo ke liye kahe ki tameez' is an extremely problematic way of looking at things. Tameez shows who YOU are. Not who THEY are. Showing respect simply shows that YOU are a respectful person. Showing disrespect is showing YOU are a disrespectful person. 

 

In my personal life, i've lost my $hit many times, but i rarely, if EVER use a cuss word, unless its for fun and games. Never called anyone BC,MC, C-word, etc in anger. Why ? Because i don't need to. using normal words to insult and rip a person apart is far more effective than losing your cool and having verbal diahrea of cuss words. 

Im not saying that in anger 

Neither is that from my side, my point was even if she wants to abuse her Harraser nothing wrong

 

The point is her harassment not the gaali

About aise logo ki kahe tameez- ofcourse if she felt violated by someone ab usko Sir G to kahogi nhin

 

Yaha baat action ki hai, gaali words hai lets rise above it 

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

WHether it is false or true it has to start with "Mere accusation".  There is a risk of someone having a bad name.  It will only hurt his name. But not reporting will hurt the society, herself, her family, future victims. There is much more at stake. I would encourage every little girl, girl to report any inappropriate touching. They should start weeding these guys out. They should instill fear. There are so many good men. Girls understand that. They don't blame the entire opposite sex.  Personally, this is a universal problem. But due to excessive population, poverty, vast amount of cultural differences, it is much more prevalent in India. There are more incidents, cases. If you ask me Entertainment industry is designed for female exploitation.  You have so much leverage to do everything behind the cover. There is so much scope for exploitation. We only hear these stories from a reasonably well known artists. Think about those who never saw the light in the film industry. I do have a reasonable amount of connection with movie industry. Behind the scene exploitation is sickening.

 

As a parent, i have problem with the bolded line. Little humans should go to their parents/adults they trust. 
I say this, is because children, especially pre-teens, are not little angels and they do not fully grasp morality of consequences. They are manipulative little $hytes and giving a child power to screw over an adult based on only what he/she said, is basically giving Lex Luthor a kryptonite mine before fighting Superman. 

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1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

As a parent, i have problem with the bolded line. Little humans should go to their parents/adults they trust. 
I say this, is because children, especially pre-teens, are not little angels and they do not fully grasp morality of consequences. They are manipulative little $hytes and giving a child power to screw over an adult based on only what he/she said, is basically giving Lex Luthor a kryptonite mine before fighting Superman. 

I am talking about things like the gym teacher did to 5000 young girls. In the name of medical check up he did all sort of nasty things.  Worst part is some parents even knew and didn't take it seriously. Same way fondling them is a strict no no. Holding hands or patting on the back there are some normal gestures. It is the responsibility of parents to get the truth out of the child.

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38 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

I am talking about things like the gym teacher did to 5000 young girls. In the name of medical check up he did all sort of nasty things.  Worst part is some parents even knew and didn't take it seriously. Same way fondling them is a strict no no. Holding hands or patting on the back there are some normal gestures. It is the responsibility of parents to get the truth out of the child.

Agreed. But children need to also realize that their testimony will be analyzed and not auto-believed like adults,because i find that children are far more prone to manipulating adults to get their way than adults doing it to each other.

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And yes, parents need to be more vigilant, aware and invested. Not saying they should believe what a child has to say automatically, but they should not dismiss it either off-handedly. 


I will relate you a story from my past : when i was young and new to Canada, i rented a room from a single mom of 2 kids, who had 2 kids from 2 of her prior marriages (she was ~10 years older than me at that time, so late 20s/early 30s). One child was 3 years old and the other was 8. The older was a girl, younger was a boy.  She wasn't in touch with the girl's dad anymore but the boy's father was involved in their lives - he'd come pick up the kids occasionally to babysit, give her a day off etc. ( not just his kid but also the girl).

I used to have a weekend part time job an when i'd get home the little dude would light up, come running to me with his arms out-streched, wanting an 'aeroplane ride'. This is basically when u pick up a kid by their tummy, hold them horizontally and make whoosh noises and pretend they are a toy plane - dive bombing, steep climbing, landing etc. Little tykes LOVE this. 
Needless to say, after i was done with the lil man, the girl wanted it as well. And sometimes i'd oblige but most of the time i'd bail. Simply because the 4 year old kid weighed like 25 pounds and she as a lanky 8 year old probably weighed 50-60 pounds. Much harder to do with a heavier human than a toddler. And she'd get upset and i'd mostly cave, do it for a couple of minutes and then go to my room. 

One time, the same thing played out and i flat out said 'no' to the girl. She whined, pouted, said i dont love her as much, blahblah. And when i started to walk towards my room, she said ' if u give me an aeroplane ride, i will show you my panties'. Now, this is in the early-mid 90s, prior to mass media. An 8 year old should NEVER have the notion even that showing her panties to an adult male can be 'incentive'. I was troubled, so i went and told this to her mom. Her mom looked up from her cooking and asked her if she said this...she sheepishly said 'yes'. Her mom grounded her and told me 'kids these days will say any random nonsense. just ignore her'. I was blown away. Told a friend who worked social services and she adviced me to move out, because if today the kid has figured out that showing her panties is a bribe, tomorrow she will figure out that she can use it as black-mail to get her way. 

This kind of parental behaviour blows me away. 

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28 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Agreed. But children need to also realize that their testimony will be analyzed and not auto-believed like adults,because i find that children are far more prone to manipulating adults to get their way than adults doing it to each other.

There was an incident one girl accused her own father for rape and got him prison time and regretted later that she did out of anger. He still forgave her. Yes there are many like that. Kids calling 911 to land their parents in trouble.  But kids should be taught to spot telltale signs. 

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9 hours ago, mishra said:

@beetle ji, I may be woron but you seem to be confusing issue. 

MeToo is a movement of strong women to that of day today stuff that goes in society. The social stuff you are on about is most deplorable thing and their is no room for it in society. Its unlawful behavior and law must be able to enforce it.

 

Now back to meToo. For example, Asking for a coffee to someone is never unlawful but asking your subordinate for a coffee could be classed sexual harrasment in corporate world. In India a junior male will confidently go out with her female boss, while a female sobordinate will have so many things in her mind if he male boss has asked the same. MeToo is for those subordinate types who felt uncomfortable to go on coffee but knew that if they dont go, their career may be over.  meToo definitely about calling it a sexual harrasment if further uncomfortable situation comes after going on that uncomfortable cup of coffee.

 

Corporate world, have created and trained its employees with set of rules. However its time when sectors like Entertainment, and other sectors and (small businesses bigger then certain number of employee count) should take a cue and came with  stringent rules and procedures. For example a doctor should have to go through disciplinary proceedings of Medical council and may be struck off register if he is found to be doing something inappropriate.

 

Its time various sectors took some measures and do something about safety of women in that sectors

 

 

May be it can be classed as sexists but I dont care to change it now. For me, males have moral responsibility to provide best possible comfortable atmosphere to females. Every male should know their boundary, and limit himself to it, and boundry being females around them feel comfortable by their words,actions expectations. Its females job to let man cross that boundary and make the man happier . Teach this to your sons and we will get resolution to social issues of India:bow:

True.

But the women in the corporate world form a small  number compared to the rest of India.

Most women in India do not have the redresssal  point where they can discuss the issue.

Now are most men made  aware of the definition of harrassment like in the corporate world.

 

We need a massive awareness campaign to address the issue in general.

Making people aware about boundaries, about unequal power , about people having free will over their lives.

 

It is not about gender.

Many men are sexually harrassed by other men too.

Some men are harrassed by women.

Then there is the issue of other genders that even the present law does not address.

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4 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

There was an incident one girl accused her own father for rape and got him prison time and regretted later that she did out of anger. He still forgave her. Yes there are many like that. Kids calling 911 to land their parents in trouble.  But kids should be taught to spot telltale signs. 

Such cases have happened even in bad divorces where the mother influenced the kid to get even with the ex husband.

 

There should be a real effort to punish the misusers .

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5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

I am talking about things like the gym teacher did to 5000 young girls. In the name of medical check up he did all sort of nasty things.  Worst part is some parents even knew and didn't take it seriously. Same way fondling them is a strict no no. Holding hands or patting on the back there are some normal gestures. It is the responsibility of parents to get the truth out of the child.

Like parents forcing / influencing their children to become blind bhakts of babas  who turn out to be rapist.

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6 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

WHether it is false or true it has to start with "Mere accusation".  There is a risk of someone having a bad name.  It will only hurt his name. But not reporting will hurt the society, herself, her family, future victims. There is much more at stake. I would encourage every little girl, girl to report any inappropriate touching. They should start weeding these guys out. They should instill fear. There are so many good men. Girls understand that. They don't blame the entire opposite sex.  Personally, this is a universal problem. But due to excessive population, poverty, vast amount of cultural differences, it is much more prevalent in India. There are more incidents, cases. If you ask me Entertainment industry is designed for female exploitation.  You have so much leverage to do everything behind the cover. There is so much scope for exploitation. We only hear these stories from a reasonably well known artists. Think about those who never saw the light in the film industry. I do have a reasonable amount of connection with movie industry. Behind the scene exploitation is sickening.

 

The recent case of the horrific gangrape of cbsc topper in haryana could have been avoided if the previous 4-5 victims of these rapists had reported.

These guys used to forcibly pick up girls and rape the girl at their rape  adda where the other rapists used to join .

 

The villages knew this was happening. They knew the girls who were gangraped but no one said anything because according to them' the girls were of marriage age and their lives would have been destroyed'.

This girl reported it .

She also happened to have recieved some award from the Prime Minister...so it became a serious enough case.

Thanks to her, God knows how many other girls were saved.

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10 hours ago, Shunya said:

Great Thanks for sharing. I read this process for the first time. Dunno how it works though, will have to read further on "Who has more credibility wins" scenario. Can you please share the source of this information? Cos if there is no objective proof in these cases, how were things done so far and what would be the definition of harrasment or sexual harrasment?

 

Apna samay barbaad mat karo yaar... 

 

Mulo  either didn't read properly, didn't understand what he read, or is deliberately misquoting research here(I don't want to assign malevolence here though)...

 

The 2-10% he stated is false regarding sexual harassment  

10 hours ago, Shunya said:

Are there false allegations ? yes. But they are a statistical minority. Most objective research shows that less than 50% of cases are reported worldwide and of them anywhere between 2-10% are false accusations. Meaning that in entirity of numbers, the total % of false accusations are less than 1% to less than 5%. 

I have also read the wikipedia article that he is quoting from and it only talks about Rape cases, not sexual harassment

Here is what it said

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#cite_note-DiCanio-1

Quote

A false accusation of rape is the reporting of a rape where no rape has occurred. It is difficult to assess the true prevalence of false rape allegations, but it is generally agreed that, for about 2% to 10% of rape allegations, a thorough investigation establishes that no crime was committed or attempted

The 2-10% is only regarding false rape accusations, it doesn't mention false sexual harassment cases. 

This is based off of 1 research article linked at the bottom of the Wiki page, here it is:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1077801210387747

Quote

Abstract One of the most controversial disputes affecting the discourse related to violence against women is the dispute about the frequency of false allegations of sexual assault. In an effort to add clarity to the discourse, published research on false allegations is critiqued, and the results of a new study described. All cases (N = 136) of sexual assault reported to a major Northeastern university over a 10-year period are analyzed to determine the percentage of false allegations. Of the 136 cases of sexual assault reported over the 10-year period, 8 (5.9%) are coded as false allegations. These results, taken in the context of an examination of previous research, indicate that the prevalence of false allegations is between 2% and 10%

No where in the paper does it mention sexual harassment even once. It is exclusively talking about fake rape allegations, which they estimate to be somewhere between 2-10 percent, but thier data found 5.9%Furthermore, that is only regarding the US, numbers of fake rape cases could be less or more in other countries. 

 

Its sample also appears to be 1 university in the NE US only, so it isn't something to generalize to the rest of the world or USA. 

 

On the same wiki page another study, which is a meta-analysis of multiple other studies summarized its data with this graph 

Rumney (2006)

A selection of findings on the prevalence of false rape allegations. Data from Rumney (2006).
  Number False reporting rate (%)
Theilade and Thomsen (1986) 1 out of 56 
4 out of 39
1.5% (minimum)
10% (maximum)
New York Rape Squad (1974) n/a 2%
Hursch and Selkin (1974) 10 out of 545 2%
Kelly et al. (2005) 67 out of 2,643 3% ("possible" and "probable" false allegations) 
22% (recorded by police as "no-crime")
Geis (1978) n/a 3–31% (estimates given by police surgeons)
Smith (1989) 17 out of 447 3.8%
U.S. Department of Justice (1997) n/a 8%
Clark and Lewis (1977) 12 out of 116 10.3%
Harris and Grace (1999) 53 out of 483 
123 out of 483
10.9% ("false/malicious" claims)
25% (recorded by police as "no-crime")
Lea et al. (2003) 42 out of 379 11%
HMCPSI/HMIC (2002) 164 out of 1,379 11.8%
McCahill et al. (1979) 218 out of 1,198 18.2%
Philadelphia police study (1968) 74 out of 370 20%
Chambers and Millar (1983) 44 out of 196 22.4%
Grace et al. (1992) 80 out of 335 24%
Jordan (2004) 68 out of 164 
62 out of 164
41% ("false" claims)
38% (viewed by police as "possibly true/possibly false")
Kanin (1994) 45 out of 109 41%
Gregory and Lees (1996) 49 out of 109 45%
Maclean (1979) 16 out of 34 47%
Stewart (1981) 16 out of 18 90%

 

The numbers of fake rape cases according to this meta-analysis ranges from 1.5% to 90%. There are many data points we can see above 20% false and above 40% false. 

 

None of these studies seem to be talking about fake sexual harassment cases. Sexual harassment cases are much easier to falsify logically than rape cases, as rape cases usually leave behind evidence. The false sexual harassment cases could be much higher.

 

My 2 paisa

 

There is no presumption of guilt in court. People are innocent until proven guilty and the prosecution bears the burden to prove that a crime happened, whether the crime is murder/rape/thievery/harassment and whether the alleged victim is whatever sex/caste/creed. No ifs ands or buts. If you don't like it, think of a better system where noone who ever does a crime is let off and the guilty are always punished and then implement it. But this is the best system we have and perfect shouldn't be the enemy of best. 

 

I was googling for some more info on the legal aspects of such cases and I found this chart from a paper by the Australian Institute of Criminology 

https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi288

 

These are the basis of discontinuing cases where sexual offense allegations are made, on defendant and accuser sides.

Quote

Decisions in the pre-indictment stage tend to be based on the papers in the brief and the technicalities of whether there is a prima facie case. Assuming that a prima facie case has been established, a number of factors enter into decisions to proceed or discontinue. The ultimate assessment rests on consideration of a range of victim-, defendant-, and case-related factors. Table 1 summarises factors that were mentioned by the majority of interviewees, although they were unanimous about the importance of victim credibility in adult sexual assault cases.

Table 1 : Factors influencing prosecutors' decisions to proceed with or discontinue adult sexual assault cases
Proceed Discontinue
Victim
Credible, reliable Defence has access to material that will undermine victim's credibility, for example, psychiatric history of delusions
Willing to proceed; able to withstand trial processes Reluctant - makes informed decisions not unduly influenced by the defendant or others associated with him. This would not apply where there are strong public interest reasons to proceed, for example schoolteacher and pupil, serial offender
Consistency, although some degree of discrepancy is understandable Inexplicable internal inconsistencies in the victim's story
Can recall and relate the facts Memory affected by drug or alcohol use, or even the shock of the attack
Distress Vindictiveness or other circumstances that could indicate motive to lie
Corroboration: visible injuries, bruises, eyewitnesses, medical evidence Victim's account conflicts with other evidence or eyewitness accounts
Defendant
Factors that undermine the defendant's version, for example, motive to offend, lies Age, health, mental condition
Inconsistencies, for example, admission followed by denial; denial followed by claim of consensual sex when DNA proves sex took place  
Case
Fresh complaint i.e. the victim reported the assault to a third party at the first reasonable opportunity, while the events were still 'fresh' in her memory Delayed complaint
Age of matter - recent Historical offence
Level of offence - rape Indecent assault
Relationship evidence that is admissible and will assist jury in determining truth Reconciliation between victim and defendant (not determinative but a factor)

 

Quote

The most problematic and common cases are those that come down to word against word. The prosecutor's assessment of the victim's credibility and reliability as a witness, and her willingness to proceed, is crucial in these cases. Prosecutors were generally supportive of proceeding with most cases, but acknowledged that there are times when they would be more likely to recommend discontinuing. Their responses fell into two main categories, which generally result in cases going forward, with a third, smaller group that was more inclined to discontinue:

 

 

 It looks like in Australia many of these cases are not able to proceed if there is no evidence which can make a case. 

 

Are there any lawyer types here who can explain how Indian law works differently than Australian law, if at all?

Edited by Moochad

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1 hour ago, Moochad said:

 

My 2 paisa

 

There is no presumption of guilt in court. People are innocent until proven guilty and the prosecution bears the burden to prove that a crime happened, whether the crime is murder/rape/thievery/harassment and whether the alleged victim is whatever sex/caste/creed. No ifs ands or buts. If you don't like it, think of a better system where noone who ever does a crime is let off and the guilty are always punished and then implement it. But this is the best system we have and perfect shouldn't be the enemy of best. 

 

This is not the best system and mathematically demonstrable as such. The innocent until proven guilty SPECIFICALLY and so far, SINGULARLY yeilds large % of ambiguous results (purely on the basis of objective, empiric evidence provided) in the case of sexual assaults & rapes.

Therefore, mathematically, a system that is yeilding close to optimal performance in all subsets of scenarios A-1 (with A being the entire subset, 1 subtracted for this specific legal category), the mathematically optimal scenario, is to have a seperate course of action for the said scenario B, where B = A-1. 

I have no idea what the seperate scenario for B should be, but empirically, the exception scenario should be investigated. 

 

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5 hours ago, beetle said:

True.

But the women in the corporate world form a small  number compared to the rest of India.

Most women in India do not have the redresssal  point where they can discuss the issue.

Now are most men made  aware of the definition of harrassment like in the corporate world.

 

We need a massive awareness campaign to address the issue in general.

Making people aware about boundaries, about unequal power , about people having free will over their lives.

 

It is not about gender.

Many men are sexually harrassed by other men too.

Some men are harrassed by women.

Then there is the issue of other genders that even the present law does not address.

Yes, but trial by media is wrong. I went completely over various anecdotal evidence in the case of Nana vs Tanushri. You can clearly see

1. Tanu was playing as item number.

2. She accuses Nana touched her in certain way on sets publicly and she felt uncomfortable about it.

3. Choreographer introduced some sequence which made her further uncomfortable

4. Three days of shooting time was lost

 

So, for a outsider who knows what is purpose of a item number and how much skin is to be revealed may also go in contract, was Tanu forced to pay for damages after giving up? If there is a party which gained/lost something financially. As all this happened in public It looks very fishy/innocent. It could be innocent from both the sides too.

 

Her going to vanity van in the middle of shoot, undoubtedly points out that she was uncomfortable. Nana has to understand, that Tanu may have faced something in past which may have made her feel uncomfortable on the sets. So despite him being innocent, i see it as moral duty of Nana to attempt and resolve it. He has clearly failed on that front which would have further cemented Tanus feeling that it was sexual harrassment.

 

So, IMO, Nana is borderline guilty unless Tanu had a reputation of throwing tantrums on sets or Tanu was to gain something financially.

Assuming he is guilty, does not mean Nana needs to go to prison or loose acting career, He should be told to never do it again.

 

BTW, IIRC , Shushmita too complained in past about something. On sets of certain movie, Rekha warned some junior artist to "Control the passion" for some steamy scene. So Tanu could have done same.

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Again, there are hundreds of such stories on Twitter under #metoo. Dunno whom to believe. 

What would you guys think or believe if our Indian cricketers are called out like this? Sachin, Dhoni, Kohli or Gavaskar, Kapil, etc

 

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Again, there are hundreds of such stories on Twitter under #metoo. Dunno whom to believe. 
What would you guys think or believe if our Indian cricketers are called out like this? Sachin, Dhoni, Kohli or Gavaskar, Kapil, etc
 


Of course I would believe .

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8 minutes ago, UrmiSinhaRay said:


 

 


Of course I would believe .

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Can you name a few Indian Cricketers who could get metoo'd in the coming days? 

 

Kuch toh Batao Yaar,  ab kitna time wait Kare kisike saamne aane ka.

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9 hours ago, beetle said:

https://www.news18.com/news/movies/kaneez-surka-accuses-aditi-mittal-of-forcefully-kissing-demands-public-apology-1905143.html

 

I hope men too take this opportunity to come out and demand this from their abusers.

 

 

Guys have had their share of such experience.But they will be too embarrassed to share . More than women :) Friend of mine had to go through this in a public rest room. He  was kissed on lips by another guy.

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Guys have had their share of such experience.But they will be too embarrassed to share . More than women :) Friend of mine had to go through this in a public rest room. He  was kissed on lips by another guy.
Is it one of those "it happened to my friend" posts?

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19 minutes ago, Sachinism said:

Ranatunga and Malinga also caught up. 

I'm surprised no Indian cricketers have been named yet

 They are role models and have mostly kept moral compass  that way. Watch that MSD movie. The way MSD has behaved in both love affairs, You can clearly see that Indian Cricketers have maintained a certain behaviour.

 

However, I can say this till players like MSD, Tendya, Dravid. These guys avoided going closer to Bollywood.

Nagama Sangeeta Bijlani and all have come in lives of our cricketers. But they have been a strong women themselves. What happened in Dawood era, I wont comment on that.  It may have been more like mutual stuff then a #meToo bullshit

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 They are role models and have mostly kept moral compass  that way. Watch that MSD movie. The way MSD has behaved in both love affairs, You can clearly see that Indian Cricketers have maintained a certain behaviour.
 
However, I can say this till players like MSD, Tendya, Dravid. These guys avoided going closer to Bollywood.
Nagama Sangeeta Bijlani and all have come in lives of our cricketers. But they have been a strong women themselves. What happened in Dawood era, I wont comment on that.  It may have been more like mutual stuff then a #meToo bullshit
I remember watching MTV bakra where a girl tries to woo Rahul Dravid (he was the new sensation then). The way he handled the situation was so sanskari. He ended up telling her to devout her time on her career or something to that effect.

It should be there somewhere on YouTube

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1 hour ago, mishra said:

 They are role models and have mostly kept moral compass  that way. Watch that MSD movie. The way MSD has behaved in both love affairs, You can clearly see that Indian Cricketers have maintained a certain behaviour.

 

However, I can say this till players like MSD, Tendya, Dravid. These guys avoided going closer to Bollywood.

Nagama Sangeeta Bijlani and all have come in lives of our cricketers. But they have been a strong women themselves. What happened in Dawood era, I wont comment on that.  It may have been more like mutual stuff then a #meToo bullshit

Maybe not those stalwarts, but I'm certain many of the younger generations enjoy the benefits of their fame. I don't know whether they've ever had non-consensual sex, but I don't a few who aren't shy about getting 'touchy-feely' with little invitation.

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2 hours ago, mishra said:

 They are role models and have mostly kept moral compass  that way. Watch that MSD movie. The way MSD has behaved in both love affairs, You can clearly see that Indian Cricketers have maintained a certain behaviour.

 

However, I can say this till players like MSD, Tendya, Dravid. These guys avoided going closer to Bollywood.

Nagama Sangeeta Bijlani and all have come in lives of our cricketers. But they have been a strong women themselves. What happened in Dawood era, I wont comment on that.  It may have been more like mutual stuff then a #meToo bullshit

This leads to the next debate. Parents and people in general will go back to conservative roots. Ladka ladki alag alag, female teachers for female students, etc. 

 

With bollywood stories coming out in huge numbers, surely lots of boys and girls will come to know that this glamour world that they dream of is not so glamorous afterall. Also India is not ready to become free like Western world, we need lot of education and awareness about so many of these issues. That includes men and women both. Dating scene is a mess, relationship scene is a mess. Almost like every citizen should be mandatorily enrolled in courses all over India simply to teach them basics of interaction between sexes and educating abt consent and other stuff. Long way to go.

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2 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Now Sajid khan 

 

 

N suhel seth

 

 

 

Poor Girl Saloni. And this is exactly what I was saying. Its assistants and strugglers  are the ones  who are going through horrific horrific stuff. But our media is interested in if some sequence was introduced intentionally in a item number.

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2 hours ago, Sachinism said:

Maybe not those stalwarts, but I'm certain many of the younger generations enjoy the benefits of their fame. I don't know whether they've ever had non-consensual sex, but I don't a few who aren't shy about getting 'touchy-feely' with little invitation.

abuse of power and fame isnt actually same as enjoying fruits of power and fame. :icflove: I have no issues with later

Edited by mishra

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2 minutes ago, mishra said:

Poor Girl Saloni. And this is exactly what I was saying. Its assistants and strugglers  are the ones  who are going through horrific horrific stuff. But our media is interested in if some sequence was introduced intentionally in a item number.

harrasement is harrasment

saloni had diff type n tanushree diff 

Lets not compare

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Subhash Ghai drugged and raped me: Woman recounts horrific experience

 

This month, we've read chilling and horrific experiences about sexual assault and abuse. Women have come forward and shared their horrifying stories of sexual harassment at the hands of powerful and well-known people.

Tanushree Dutta triggered a moment of sorts when she accused Nana Patekar of sexual misconduct on the sets of Horn Ok Pleassss (2008). Following this, many women have come forward and called out men like Vikas Bahl, Alok Nath, Rajat Kapoor and Kailash Kher for unwarranted advances and molestation.

 

Now, the next one to be accused is director Subhash Ghai. An anonymous woman shared her nightmarish experience. She says that while working with the director on a film many years ago, he drugged and raped her.

 
 
 
 

She wrote, "In the beginning, he would take me to music recordings and I would have to sit there till very late at night with other male members. When recordings finished, I took an auto home or he would drop me. He slowly started putting his hand on my thigh, giving me a big hug saying that I did good that day."

She added that he would call her for script sessions at his apartment in Lokhandwala. This was not the house that he stayed with his wife. He called it his "thinking pad." "In one of the script sessions, he started talking about how misunderstood he was in the industry and only I was the one who loved him. He pretended to weep and put his head on lap. Then when he was getting up, he kissed me forcefully. I was shocked and left that day."

Next day, he said in office, that "lovers have tiffs". The woman adds that she was too scared to leave work, as she had no other job and other form of financial security.

One evening after music session, he decided to have a drink. "He gave me a drink as well. It was spiked. After that, I remember getting into a car and I thought that he was driving me home. He took me to a hotel. I was wobbly, but he held me and took me to the suite. He took off my jeans and mounted me. I was trying to scream, but he put his hand over my mouth. I cried and passed out."
The next day he dropped her home. "I took a few days off and I was told that I won't be paid, if I quit now."

The woman says that she has never seen or spoken to him after that.

 

Link -https://www.indiatoday.in/movies/celebrities/story/subhash-ghai-drugged-and-raped-me-woman-recounts-horrific-experience-1366546-2018-10-11

 

 

 

 

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