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Ayodhya Verdict


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1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

The so called 'representatives' of the Muslim community not only accept that there were atrocities, but some of them tend to gloat over it too. It is sickening.  But what has that to do with the verdict? Which 'representative' has a case going on wrt Babri Masjid/ lord Ram Janmabhoomi issue?

Who exactly is a Muslim community representative? For integration into the mainstream it s necessary that people have representatives on the basis of the work they do and not on the basis of their religious affiliation.

Sir, you may call me all the names that you wish to. But some basic premises about this case.

1-The Waqf board is doing what is kind of its stated job. It is the precise reason that the state governments has instituted this board on the basis of the Waqf Act.. To regulate and maintain Waqf property issues both movable and immovable. Of course, you can pose the question: should they be taking the fight to the Supreme Court? Ideally not. Give up all claim. But they are well within their rights to fight it out. 

2-Waqf board is not spreading fear/hatred in the minds of common Muslims. If anything, the act of demolition of the Masjid did that. Since we are on this topic, the massive political gain because of the Babri Masjid demolition was for the BJP. And that too can be a cause of fear. 

3-Waqf board's case is basically that of a title deed. The Waqf board or its predecessor organization has not changed the status quo. Their case so far has been to challenge the changes in status quo.

4- Every action of the Waqf board has been completely constitutional. Yet you choose to vilify them, of all people.

Please accept my apology. It was definitely not personal and i vented out in frustration. I mean only good. Can I ask you something?

 

Am I being foolish to expect magnanimous gesture from fellow men?. What happened in 92 could not be held against the very essense the place can offer to Ram devotees. Ram belongs to all. Nobody has a copy right. Certainly not BJP or RSS. 

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22 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

You should read Meenakshi Jain book on this subject. The Historical evidence I speak about is from 1870 onwards. British, FWIW, have maintained civic records on this site, has been extensively used in the Prayagraj HC verdict of 2010.

 

Those who meditate can easily tell that it is the true birthplace. They can even pin point the spot. Chaitanya can be easily felt from here in America also. 

 

It is unfortunate. If ordinance is the only way then so be it. As long as Hindu community generously offers better option for Muslims to build a big mosque somewhere else then it will serve 2 purposes.  

 

India can set a new precedence of harmonious settlement between communities.

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3 minutes ago, dial_100 said:

Those who meditate can easily tell that it is the true birthplace. They can even pin point the spot. Chaitanya can be easily felt from here in America also. 

Yeah. I call 100% pure bakwaas on that. There is no way to scientifically confirm this, in the first place. Neither is there a way to keep the test subjects from colluding in said matter. 

3 minutes ago, dial_100 said:

 

It is unfortunate. If ordinance is the only way then so be it. As long as Hindu community generously offers better option for Muslims to build a big mosque somewhere else then it will serve 2 purposes.  

I think thats a good compromise. Perhaps one close by would be nice. 

3 minutes ago, dial_100 said:

 

India can set a new precedence of harmonious settlement between communities.

Hope so.

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52 minutes ago, dial_100 said:

Please accept my apology. It was definitely not personal and i vented out in frustration. I mean only good. Can I ask you something?

 

Am I being foolish to expect magnanimous gesture from fellow men?. What happened in 92 could not be held against the very essense the place can offer to Ram devotees. Ram belongs to all. Nobody has a copy right. Certainly not BJP or RSS. 

Not foolish, but idealistic.

 

Ideally, the Waqf board should just have relinquished all claim to that spot and built a mosque on land maybe a few kms from the lord Ram janmabhoomi. But given the boards' (pre demolition) unnecessary stubborn attitude , we have missed that bus. It would have been a very good example of reconciliation.

But to expect Waqf board to not fight it now, after the demolition is very naive. Backing down now would look very cowardly on their part. I don't see them backing out at all.

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1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

You should read Meenakshi Jain book on this subject. The Historical evidence I speak about is from 1870 onwards. British, FWIW, have maintained civic records on this site, has been extensively used in the Prayagraj HC verdict of 2010.

 

Riddle me this:

If the evidence is so overwhelmingly in favour of the existence and subsequent destruction of a Ram Mandir on that spot: Why did the Allahabad/Prayagraj HC grant 1/3rd of the land of the Waqf board? 

 

PS: Can you share a link to this book?

 

PPS: The best outcome here is an out of court settlement. With the Mandir at that spot and land granted for a Masjid somewhere in the general vicinity.

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5 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Riddle me this:

If the evidence is so overwhelmingly in favour of the existence and subsequent destruction of a Ram Mandir on that spot: Why did the Allahabad/Prayagraj HC grant 1/3rd of the land of the Waqf board? 

 

PS: Can you share a link to this book?

 

PPS: The best outcome here is an out of court settlement. With the Mandir at that spot and land granted for a Masjid somewhere in the general vicinity.

Why in the vicinity? SC has ruled that mosque is not essential to Islam. Let them build a grand mosque in Lucknow. A lot of hindus will contribute. Shia board recommended this. Don't  have to rub it like Mathura and Gyaan wapi in Kashi.

 

The book: 

The Battle of Rama: Case of the Temple at Ayodhya

https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-att-aio-us&q=The+Battle+of+Rama:+Case+of+the+Temple+at+Ayodhya&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgFuLWz9U3MDTKSCtOqVLi1U_XNzRMMyg0LcxLL9IScCwtycgvCsl3ys_P9s_LqQQABVS1mTAAAAA&sa=X&sqi=2&pjf=1&ved=2ahUKEwj9tMvByrDeAhWlg-AKHfaMAfIQri4wA3oECAsQDQ&biw=320&bih=510

 

Edited by coffee_rules
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Verdict or no verdict, I'd like to see a compromise being reached on this long-drawn out mess -

  • Build a temple at the spot.  There's ample evidence to support that local hindus have believed for millenia that this was a temple site of significance.  Whether Ram existed or not, whether he was born there or not.
  • Provide massively generous compensation to the Waqf board to build a mosque and have plenty left over.
  • Any, and I mean any, entities involved with the masjid demolition in 1992 to be absolutely debarred from any involvement whatsoever from the temple - construction or administration.  
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59 minutes ago, Ranvir said:

How weak must Hindus be that when they are 80% they still tip toe around the 14% Muslim community.

 

That too after Muslims demanded a separate country. I think the day Pakistan was created things like this should have become a non entity.

Paaji, the blame goes to Gandhian brainwashing. Even from childhood I remember being brainwashed about how much we owe our lives to GAndhi (and Nehru)   

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1 hour ago, Moochad said:

Paaji, the blame goes to Gandhian brainwashing. Even from childhood I remember being brainwashed about how much we owe our lives to GAndhi (and Nehru)   

Yes I agree. Gandhi is not a good role model.

 

Anyone who say to turn the other cheek only wants to breed weak followers who are easier to control and manipulate.

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On 10/30/2018 at 6:57 PM, Singh bling said:

The problem is not Ram temple or religious place.The problem is history.Till date I have hardly seen any muslim community representative who accept that  Muslims did commit atrocities in India on Hindu's .The problem is Muslim representative openly say that Aurangzeb was hero . There were never temples broken , there were never forced conversions. In this scenario both communities can hardly live in peace .Hindu's will always demand back their temples which were broken while Muslims will keep denying it

The attrocities by Muslims were horrible when Mughals invaded India.The Maratha ,Sikh and Rajputs did take revenge in self defense which was important.Was there even a noise by the Mughas and their people when thousand temples where being  destroyed by Mughals in India and mosques were built over temples with material of destroyed temples being used to build those mosques.The Muslims in India are probably enjoying better life and respect than they get in Somalia,Egypt,Libya,Afghanistan and Pakistan.

 

See the number of people dying in those Muslim countries due to conflict by their own rulers even today as well as wars involving US since 2000.India is very safe for tose who are moving here.Rohingyas too tried to move to India as they thought they could live better life here.Some must be feeling lucky they moved out of those countries to other safer countries.Think educated Muslims are migrating their kids to safer developed or peaceful developing nations so they do not face same fate as others facing now.

 

Yes,atrocities were committed against Muslims elsewhere.One can google atrocities against Muslims.There is vast list of that.Doesnt means they should be pampere because they did provoke Indian kings like Shivaji,The Rajputs and Vijaynagar empire by destroying temples and committing cruel acts on civilians and got some of it back.Now the Muslims are fighting among themselves and lot of lives are lost as result.Example Egypt,Libya,Afghan,Pak and terrorism in other such countries by terrorist or rulers.

Edited by Straight Drive
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3 hours ago, Ranvir said:

Yes I agree. Gandhi is not a good role model.

 

Anyone who say to turn the other cheek only wants to breed weak followers who are easier to control and manipulate.

Exactly. When one has to deal with those  who have flashed swords in India we needed Rajput Kings,Shivaji Maharaja,Vijayanagar Empire.Gandhis won't work against such cruel people.A sword should be used to tackle a sword.Peaceful talks are good with people who are educated,shown progressive human behaviour and are not willing to commit atrocities against other religions or show respect to others religions.Gandhigiri won't work against swords.For dealing such cruelty we needed various Indian kings and now the attitude we saw during Kargil,The surgical strike and what US army did in Afghanistan and Pakistan.Otherwise the past history would get repeated over centuries.Deal it in tough way and strike it when it is trying to bud and before they manage to spread terrorism.

Edited by Straight Drive
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5 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

The attrocities by Muslims were horrible when Mughals invaded India.The Maratha ,Sikh and Rajputs did take revenge in self defense which was important.Was there even a noise by the Mughas and their people when thousand temples where being  destroyed by Mughals in India and mosques were built over temples with material of destroyed temples being used to build those mosques.The Muslims in India are probably enjoying better life and respect than they get in Somalia,Egypt,Libya,Afghanistan and Pakistan.

 

See the number of people dying in those Muslim countries due to conflict by their own rulers even today as well as wars involving US since 2000.India is very safe for tose who are moving here.Rohingyas too tried to move to India as they thought they could live better life here.Some must be feeling lucky they moved out of those countries to other safer countries.Think educated Muslims are migrating their kids to safer developed or peaceful developing nations so they do not face same fate as others facing now.

 

Yes,atrocities were committed against Muslims elsewhere.One can google atrocities against Muslims.There is vast list of that.Doesnt means they should be pampere because they did provoke Indian kings like Shivaji,The Rajputs and Vijaynagar empire by destroying temples and committing cruel acts on civilians and got some of it back.Now the Muslims are fighting among themselves and lot of lives are lost as result.Example Egypt,Libya,Afghan,Pak and terrorism in other such countries by terrorist or rulers.

This bit, that muslims 'provoked' Shivaji or the Rajputs or Vijayanagar by committing attrocities against the Hindus, is total revisionist history nonsense, not supported by ANY first hand sources of history to exist.


This is simply because, we are NOT talking about nationalists or rulers of a NATION. This is the Maratha King, *NOT* King of England or Emperor of Japan of the last 500 years. These were ALL upper-class lordlings, fighting for *THEIR* Jaagirs and their personal domains. 

As such, they fought the Mughals, the same way ANY ruler fights their rivals or overlords - just like the muslims rulers of Bahmani Sultanate or the Nizams - they sense an opportunity and rebel to seize the moment. Some die in failure, some succeed. 

Look up Bargi raids. This is Marathas raping, killing and looting  villages in Bihar, Bengal and Orissa. We Bongs still have folk song about the terror of the Maratha bargi raids. All done on predominantly hindu civillians (especially in Orissa, where muslim presence is like negligible). 

 

These 'heroes' of yours are heroes of the feudal era - meaning, they only care for their jaagir, fiefs and ability to conquer as much land for themselves as they can. Thats it. The concept of 'nation' does not exist back then, neither do they give two hoots about the people of 'their nation' - only the people living inside their jaagirs matter, since thats how they gain power and wealth- by keeping the people in their jaagirs fed & prosperous.

 

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5 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

Exactly. When one has to deal with those  who have flashed swords in India we needed Rajput Kings,Shivaji Maharaja,Vijayanagar Empire.Gandhis won't work against such cruel people.

Um, you don't want to go down this route, trust me. India got genocided by the Turko-Muslims predominantly BECAUSE the Rajputs were so bloody incompetent AND defiant of their military superiors. There is no glory in foolish resistance, especially one meted out by incompetence. 

Better to live in servitude and get to live, than die like a fool. Look at the Jews today - they are one of the elite communities of this time, because Jews learnt their lessons: once they got utterly crushed by the Romans, they stayed quiet, put up with discrimination for 2000 years and waited. 
Now look at the Carthaginians - mighty empire that got beaten fair and square by Rome, still was too proud and too foolish to submit after THREE war campaigns and 50 years. Result: Every Carthaginian killed, Carthaginian lands sowed with salt and Carthage being a ruin for 200 years before rising again as a Roman-populated town in early empire period. 

Quote

A sword should be used to tackle a sword.Peaceful talks are good with people who are educated,shown progressive human behaviour and are not willing to commit atrocities against other religions or show respect to others religions.Gandhigiri won't work against swords.For dealing such cruelty we needed various Indian kings and now the attitude we saw during Kargil,The surgical strike and what US army did in Afghanistan and Pakistan.Otherwise the past history would get repeated over centuries.Deal it in tough way and strike it when it is trying to bud and before they manage to spread terrorism.

Gandhigiri does work and is the best option, when your sword is too weak and your leaders too foolish. If you read the battle-accounts of battles such as Khanwa, Kabul, etc. it becomes pretty apparent that your vaunted Maharanas were total idiots as far as tactical awareness on battle-field goes and total FAILS in terms of strategy.

 

To be fair though, the total tactical  & strategic fail is a uniquely medival Indian phenomenon, where regardless of Hindu or Muslim, most of its generals fought like total idiots on the battlefield. 

You may've heard great legends of how valiantly Rana Sanga fought at Khanwa. But if you ACTUALLY READ what transpired, it becomes evidently clear that Rana Sanga was a total idiot strategically as well as tactically. So was Hemu- atleast, strategically. 

 

Maybe if you were a bit educated in history and read what strategically competent generals of past times - such as Julius Caesar, Pompey Magnus, Lucius Sulla, Cao Cao, Nurhachi or Wang Mang, etc. do, you'd realize, why Hemu, Sanga, etc. were total f-king idiots.

 

 

Edited by Muloghonto
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2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Um, you don't want to go down this route, trust me. India got genocided by the Turko-Muslims predominantly BECAUSE the Rajputs were so bloody incompetent AND defiant of their military superiors. There is no glory in foolish resistance, especially one meted out by incompetence. 

Better to live in servitude and get to live, than die like a fool. Look at the Jews today - they are one of the elite communities of this time, because Jews learnt their lessons: once they got utterly crushed by the Romans, they stayed quiet, put up with discrimination for 2000 years and waited. 
Now look at the Carthaginians - mighty empire that got beaten fair and square by Rome, still was too proud and too foolish to submit after THREE war campaigns and 50 years. Result: Every Carthaginian killed, Carthaginian lands sowed with salt and Carthage being a ruin for 200 years before rising again as a Roman-populated town in early empire period. 

Gandhigiri does work and is the best option, when your sword is too weak and your leaders too foolish. If you read the battle-accounts of battles such as Khanwa, Kabul, etc. it becomes pretty apparent that your vaunted Maharanas were total idiots as far as tactical awareness on battle-field goes and total FAILS in terms of strategy.

 

To be fair though, the total tactical  & strategic fail is a uniquely medival Indian phenomenon, where regardless of Hindu or Muslim, most of its generals fought like total idiots on the battlefield. 

You may've heard great legends of how valiantly Rana Sanga fought at Khanwa. But if you ACTUALLY READ what transpired, it becomes evidently clear that Rana Sanga was a total idiot strategically as well as tactically. So was Hemu- atleast, strategically. 

 

Maybe if you were a bit educated in history and read what strategically competent generals of past times - such as Julius Caesar, Pompey Magnus, Lucius Sulla, Cao Cao, Nurhachi or Wang Mang, etc. do, you'd realize, why Hemu, Sanga, etc. were total f-king idiots.

 

 

Nobody in this world is going to try your approach of Gandhigiri when dealing with cruel people who come with swords and probably some weapons when fighting US or Coalition forces or Indian forces or the inter religion conflicts in middle east.Nobody tolerates terrorism today, every attempt is being made to crush it, not accept it.Gandhigiri is not a war tactics or a method to resolve a crisis where an environment is created like invasion or attacks over other countries.imo countries are aptly dealing with it.I differ on your view that Gandhigiri is the best way to resolve such issues.Terrorism has to be wiped out and its good to see the surgical strikes and US and coalition forces led war.Zero tolerance.

 

 

Edited by Straight Drive
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construct both temple and mosque .. or let muslims sponsor for the temple and Hindus for the mosque

 

people who visit sabarimala will visit a mosque or darga before visiting ayyappa .. muslims yet to mind ayyappa devotees visiting darga/mosque and hindus dont mind visiting it before going to ayyapan temple  

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