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Ankit_sharma03

Ranji trophy 2018-19

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52 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

This match just highlights the fact that we don't have good players of spin anymore, the likes of Dravid/SRT/VVS/Dada/Sehwag/GG were so much better against spinners it isn't even worth debating! On the other hand our current lot make Ali and Lyon look like Murali 2.0 :cantstop:

They also made Udal, Batty, Boje look like Murli. Lyon and Ali are certainly better than them.

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10 hours ago, R!TTER said:

You're counting what 1, 2 innings from each of those bowlers on tricky surfaces? How many times have our batters failed against Lyon or Ali, especially away from home? You'd be hard pressed to find such disasters from our retired oldies outside Asia.

TRue failing against off spinner in England is blasphemous. They ddin't fail in one test. They failed in two series in a row.

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11 hours ago, R!TTER said:

You're counting what 1, 2 innings from each of those bowlers on tricky surfaces? How many times have our batters failed against Lyon or Ali, especially away from home? You'd be hard pressed to find such disasters from our retired oldies outside Asia.

Difference in conditions and quality of bowlers. Moeen is a far superior bowler than anyone England had in last 20 years except Swann. 

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22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

 Difference in conditions and quality of bowlers. Moeen is a far superior bowler than anyone England had in last 20 years except Swann. 

How's he better than Panesar who averaged 34 while Moeen averages 37?

 

Even Giles was as good as Ali.

 

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28 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

How's he better than Panesar who averaged 34 while Moeen averages 37?

 

Even Giles was as good as Ali.

 

because of bowling style.  what are their home averages?  Moeen's bowling style of off spin suits his home pitches, Panesar didnt, being a left armer.  Same way why Ashwin's bowling style does not suit current England pitches but does suit Indian pitches.  Not everything is just black and white.  There are several things that decide which bowler is going to be successful where.  I remember 2011 England tour, hardly any ball turned on those pitches.  Bhajji was rendered useless.  Compare that to pitches on last two tours.  Moeen has turned the ball even if from the rough.  Even Ashwin did turn the ball when he got it right at times even from the stumps.  There used to be hardly any rough before.  Pitches across the world are becoming more spin friendly, less pacier except some.  Even in Australia, never saw such spin friendly pitches before.  Think about it, Murli averages 70 plus in Australia, IIRC.  It will tell you how pitches have changed over the 15-20 years.  I remember 2012 Aus tour, hardly any ball turned.  For me, it is the conditions that dictate the play most of the time.  I dont think if we had pitches like 2012 Aus tour, we could have won the test series there even this time.  

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Pujara seems a totally strange  character.... while he was struggling badly in 2nd division county  & also with his nursery kid level running between the wkts  and there by   making his own  international future so bleak, he comes up with match winning dominance in  the AUS series and that  too against a set of high quality pace bowlers. Here again in the domestic, where playing spin is his strength,   he can't buy a run ... So awkward...

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2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

because of bowling style.  what are their home averages?  Moeen's bowling style of off spin suits his home pitches, Panesar didnt, being a left armer.  Same way why Ashwin's bowling style does not suit current England pitches but does suit Indian pitches.  Not everything is just black and white.  There are several things that decide which bowler is going to be successful where.  I remember 2011 England tour, hardly any ball turned on those pitches.  Bhajji was rendered useless.  Compare that to pitches on last two tours.  Moeen has turned the ball even if from the rough.  Even Ashwin did turn the ball when he got it right at times even from the stumps.  There used to be hardly any rough before.  Pitches across the world are becoming more spin friendly, less pacier except some.  Even in Australia, never saw such spin friendly pitches before.  Think about it, Murli averages 70 plus in Australia, IIRC.  It will tell you how pitches have changed over the 15-20 years.  I remember 2012 Aus tour, hardly any ball turned.  For me, it is the conditions that dictate the play most of the time.  I dont think if we had pitches like 2012 Aus tour, we could have won the test series there even this time.  

Funny! Murali played a total of 5 matches in Australia. Out of which, 2 test matches were played around 95, when he had not even established himself. Out the remaining 3 test matches, Murali was booed a lot, and in one of them was questioned by the umpire. A very difficult period for Murali. Other than that, have you thought that the Aussie team he played against was an ATG, and they were fantastic players of spin? 

In short, theres no substance to your claim that conditions have changed. The example doesnt hold water at all! 

 

Panesar any day was better than Moeen. 

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29 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Pujara seems a totally strange  character.... while he was struggling badly in 2nd division county  & also with his nursery kid level running between the wkts  and there by   making his own  international future so bleak, he comes up with match winning dominance in  the AUS series and that  too against a set of high quality pace bowlers. Here again in the domestic, where playing spin is his strength,   he can't buy a run ... So awkward...

Carried his team to semis and then to finals in tough chases on day 4/5 in QF and SF!

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36 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Carried his team to semis and then to finals in tough chases on day 4/5 in QF and SF!

yet .... after his exploits in AUS, expected a lot  from him in the finals , of course keeping in mind his benefit value to India's fortunes in the long course. 

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55 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Funny! Murali played a total of 5 matches in Australia. Out of which, 2 test matches were played around 95, when he had not even established himself. Out the remaining 3 test matches, Murali was booed a lot, and in one of them was questioned by the umpire. A very difficult period for Murali. Other than that, have you thought that the Aussie team he played against was an ATG, and they were fantastic players of spin

In short, theres no substance to your claim that conditions have changed. The example doesnt hold water at all! 

 

Panesar any day was better than Moeen. 

Fantastic players of spin? that is why it took them decades to win in India that too when we created a green pitch at Nagpur. it is not just about Murli.  You can check the records of many finger spinners in the past who struggled in Australia. Even Kumble struggled big time in Australia and Bhajji.  Most of the finger spinners did not have great records in Australia because the ball hardly turned for them.  

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Just now, rkt.india said:

Fantastic players of spin? that is why it took them decades to win in India that too when we created a green pitch at Nagpur. it is not just about Murli.  You can check the records of many finger spinners in the past who struggled in Australia. Even Kumble struggled big time in Australia and Bhajji.  Most of the finger spinners did not have great records in Australia because the ball hardly turned for them.  

Now you are trying to mix 2 separate topics because you do not have a definitive answer to the first question. Slow down. Btw, Kumble and Bhajji struggled in all SENA countries, not just Australia!

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38 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Pujara is good against spin, not ATG level. He was owned by Swann in 2012, Ali/Lyon multiple times although he does play sla better than most Indians I've seen.

You mean in a series where he scored a match-winning double hundred and another hundred on a rank turner?

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Just now, Jimmy Cliff said:

You mean in a series where he scored a match-winning double hundred and another hundred on a rank turner?

The match winning double was on a flat pitch, the other hundred was good but then Swann psyched him out. He barely scored much after that, you remember that part?

Edited by R!TTER

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26 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

You mean in a series where he scored a match-winning double hundred and another hundred on a rank turner?

Even on a raging turner at Wankhede he scored a hundred iirc

He was undone by Swann later,but then it was a relentless hunting pair of swann,panesar

Happens to the best,that test match was sealed by Kevin Peiterson's atg knock,his innings came on a surface which had became far more worse than the one which Pujara played on

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5 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Even on a raging turner at Wankhede he scored a hundred iirc

He was undone by Swann later,but then it was a relentless hunting pair of swann,panesar

Happens to the best,that test match was sealed by Kevin Peiterson's atg knock,his innings came on a surface which had became far more worse than the one which Pujara played on

That's the hundred I was referring to. Pietersen's knock was great but he was up against an inferior attack at that point of time.

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It is almost like win the toss win the match. Pitch got progressively worse. But i have to question the technique of some of the batsmen. Also Saurashtra was guilty of allowing the opposition to claw back by having defensive field set. I must say as bad as Unadkutter he is way better than this Khaleel pie chucker. He landed his yorkers well. India is woefully short of quality of left arm seamers. Definitely Khaleel is not the best of the worst. 

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

That's the hundred I was referring to. Pietersen's knock was great but he was up against an inferior attack at that point of time.

Infact i remember panesar's bowling,it was prime example of pelting cherry to the batsmen,rest was done by the minefield

 

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2 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

You mean in a series where he scored a match-winning double hundred and another hundred on a rank turner?

owned @R!TTER

 

Pujara is as good player against spin as good as you can ever find.  He averages 60 plus in India in an era where we have seen quite a few minefields in test cricket.  His innings at Kotla minefield in 2012-13 against Aus was a masterclass against off spin.  No batsman is supposed to score runs every game or will have a high motivation level in a domestic game especially after winning a grueling test series in Aus and it would also take some time to get adjusted to a slow and low Indian rank turner pitch coming from Aus pitches.

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7 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Now you are trying to mix 2 separate topics because you do not have a definitive answer to the first question. Slow down. Btw, Kumble and Bhajji struggled in all SENA countries, not just Australia!

and i am talking about all of them, not just Australia.  my initial argument was that pitches all over the world have become more spin friendly in last 5 years or so starting with England.  SA is still a bit of exception in test cricket.  but last ODI series, we played there, pitches were helping spinner.  Take an example, Ashwin in 2014 NZ tour in 4 ODIs could not buy a wicket and ended up at an average of 219.  Jadeja struggled as well.  NZ spinners also did not do anything great. This time, spinners from both sides well.  Even NZ is encouraging pitches that would help spin, so that their batsman could learn to play spin starting from domestic cricket.

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2 hours ago, R!TTER said:

The match winning double was on a flat pitch, the other hundred was good but then Swann psyched him out. He barely scored much after that, you remember that part?

Nagpur pitch was a slow and low patta, neither helped spin nor pace, match ended in a dull draw.  So if Ahmedabad was patta, Nagpur was a bigger patta as India only played one innings there. Lets discount that.  So now come to Eden test.  First innings, he got out to Panesar, not swann and second innings he was run out.  When did Swann psyched him out then?

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4 hours ago, G_B_ said:

2 in a row

 

Stength of Indian cricket that new sides are lifting the ranji trophy?

Yeah, I think our domestic cricket is the most stronger overall, producing top bowlers, batsman and young players.

 

Our system to promote them and transition them to Indian team require changes, but our Ranji Trophy as a circuit is probably way ahead of other domestic circuits around the world.

 

Just look at Sheffield yield, same winners - Victoria or Queensland, or NSW from the past. Our domestic circuit has moved on from just one same winner like what Mumbai used to do. Players and top teams are coming from different parts of India and selection has been a headache for most teams.

 

Great signs overall. 

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On 2/7/2019 at 11:22 AM, G_B_ said:

2 in a row

 

Stength of Indian cricket that new sides are lifting the ranji trophy?

also 'professional' players playing for other teams like Jaffer and Satish helps as well ..same was the case for Rajasthan a few years back but the core is still local. 

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On 2/7/2019 at 9:05 PM, rkt.india said:

and i am talking about all of them, not just Australia.  my initial argument was that pitches all over the world have become more spin friendly in last 5 years or so starting with England.  SA is still a bit of exception in test cricket.  but last ODI series, we played there, pitches were helping spinner.  Take an example, Ashwin in 2014 NZ tour in 4 ODIs could not buy a wicket and ended up at an average of 219.  Jadeja struggled as well.  NZ spinners also did not do anything great. This time, spinners from both sides well.  Even NZ is encouraging pitches that would help spin, so that their batsman could learn to play spin starting from domestic cricket.

Pitches have become a tad flatter, not spind friendly. However, for a long time, Indian spinners were spoilt at home with absolute turners. The spinners of today, when it comes to playing abroad, are better than the spinners of the past.A point can be made that Chahal and Yadav would take wickets even in 90's, playing anywhere.

Also, one cant discount the fact that atleast from 2009-2010 onwards, INdian fast bowling has become pacier and more penetrative. The opposition no longer prefers to prepare a green bouncy wicket for Indians for the fear of bundling down to Indian fast bowlers.

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