Indian fast bowlers get carried away when there is too much help

[Global.Baba]

For some inexplicable reason this thread got deleted yesterday

 

Anyways this is a very important point. Sure the pitch wasn’t a total minefield as it was made out to be but there was a lot of grass,bounce and movement with the new ball yesterday.

 

Bumrah was bowling too short and Ishant well went back to the Ishant of 2012-2013.

 

All it needed was some patience but we gave too many boundary balls and tried too much.

 

Sure Ishant and Yadav are going to be the whipping boys and rightfully so but Bumrah shouldn’t get the new ball in swinging conditions.

 

Shami and Ishant should have opened the bowling and even better Bhuvi over Yadav on this specific pitch.

[Global.Baba]

Bumrah is not a new ball bowler in tests.

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Bumrah is not a new ball bowler in tests.

Bumrah is not a problem.  Nobody can be spot-on, every ball.  He came back well after his first spell.  

 

Bigger problem is the expected leakage from Umesh.  Bowling units cannot afford to have weak links.  They have an impact across the board.  

[Global.Baba]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Bumrah is not a problem.  Nobody can be spot-on, every ball.  He came back well after his first spell.  

 

Bigger problem is the expected leakage from Umesh.  Bowling units cannot afford to have weak links.  They have an impact across the board.  

Yes Bumrah is definetely not a problem. Just pointing out that he was too short in the opening spell where what was needed was tight channels and full pitch with consistency. Bhuvi would have been ideal.

 

This thread doesn’t apply to just fast bowlers though, you see Ashwin lose his mind when he gets rough patches or pitch becomes SC-esque away.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Global.Baba

[rkt.india]

Actually there was not much help early morning.  They bowled a bit too full in hope of swing but it was not there.  Australia is not known for swing and pitch was not giving much but once sun baked it a bit, it started providing more to pacers and they did well second session onwards as they pulled their lengths a bit.

[rkt.india]

2 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Yes Bumrah is definetely not a problem. Just pointing out that he was too short in the opening spell where what was needed was tight channels and full pitch with consistency. Bhuvi would have been ideal.

 

This thread doesn’t appeal to just fast bowlers though, you see Ashwin lose his mind when he gets rough patches or pitch becomes SC-esque away.

It was actually opposite.  They all were a bit too full in first session in an attempt to get swing at least for first 10-15 overs where they scored 47 runs in 13 overs as there was no swing but after drinks, they pulled their length back a bit which helped them squeeze the run rate and Aussies could only score 19 runs in next 13 overs.

[Global.Baba]

Just now, rkt.india said:

Actually there was not much help early morning.  They bowled a bit too full in hope of swing but it was not there.  Australia is not known for swing and pitch was not giving much but once sun baked it a bit, it started providing more to pacers and they did well second session onwards as they pulled their lengths a bit.

Do you agree that they tried too much in the first spell though?

 

Ishant was all over the place and Bumrah would pitch 2 balls full and then 4 short and was too straight.

 

Pretty sure they saw the grass and got carried away. Had it been a patta, they would have been more consistent. 

 

I saw Ishant get banana swing on a few deliveries though but they were far and few in between.

[rkt.india]

Just now, Global.Baba said:

Do you agree that they tried too much in the first spell though?

 

Ishant was all over the place and Bumrah would pitch 2 balls full and then 4 short and was too straight.

 

Pretty sure they saw the grass and got carried away. Had it been a patta, they would have been more consistent. 

 

I saw Ishant get banana swing on a few deliveries though but they were far and few in between.

No, they did not try too much as they were low in pace as well. It was first hour that was the issue where they bowled too full and just floated the ball instead of hitting the deck hard.  Floating the ball  never works in Australia.  you will have to hit the deck hard. Also, they were low in pace as well as they were trying to get the swing.

[putrevus]

We have to wait till they bowl to see if this pitch has any life and if our bowlers failed to exploit it.Yadav released all the pressure thruout the day by spraying the ball.

 

 

[Global.Baba]

3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

No, they did not try too much as they were low in pace as well. It was first hour that was the issue where they bowled too full and just floated the ball instead of hitting the deck hard.  Floating the ball  never works in Australia.  you will have to hit the deck hard. Also, they were low in pace as well as they were trying to get the swing.

Ishant was low on pace but Bumrah was bowling in the 140s.

 

I felt Bumrah  was too straight then bowling in the corridor of uncertainty and Ishant was looking for the magic delivery in to the batsman and was either straight or leg stump.

 

I do agree they gave a lot of half volleys every over though but that was between some short of length bowling. That’s what’s I got  from watching. 

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Ishant was low on pace but Bumrah was bowling in the 140s.

 

I felt Bumrah  was too straight then bowling in the corridor of uncertainty and Ishant was looking for the magic delivery in to the batsman and was either straight or leg stump.

 

I do agree they gave a lot of half volleys every over though but that was between some short of length bowling. That’s what’s I got  from watching. 

I think you are starting with a pre-conceived notion that "they tried too many things" and then trying to fit the actual data to support your notion. As @rkt.india pointed out, the conditions weren't as helpful early on.  They did take a while to figure out the optimal length on the track, which was disappointing, but then again, they are making adjustments to conditions that are quite new to them.  

 

 

[Global.Baba]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I think you are starting with a pre-conceived notion that "they tried too many things" and then trying to fit the actual data to support your notion. As @rkt.india pointed out, the conditions weren't as helpful early on.  They did take a while to figure out the optimal length on the track, which was disappointing, but then again, they are making adjustments to conditions that are quite new to them.  

 

 

Well not really I saw the first few overs as well and I formed my opinion based on what I saw. I pointed this out as the game was going as well.

 

RKT might be right in his own way because the runs that were scored were of half volleys and full pitch deliveries  but the whole premise of the word “consistency” would apply  if they tried to bowl full every other ball which they didn’t. The full pitch was sorrounded by plenty of innocuous short of the length deliveries.

 

I saw Pant missing the shape of the swing on a few deliveries early on.

 

You are probably jumping on a crutch here that rkt has a different opinion and trying to pile on but it helps if you watched the game live.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Global.Baba

[sandeep]

6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

RKT might be right in his own way because the runs that were scored were of half volleys and full pitch deliveries  but the whole premise of the word “consistency” would apply  if they tried to bowl full every other ball which they didn’t. The full pitch was sorrounded by plenty of innocuous short of the length deliveries.

Are you seriously defining consistency to mean bowling the same 'full' length repeatedly? You can't expect them to do that, any int'l level bat will take that in a heartbeat.

 

Look, clearly their Plan A for this wicket didn't work, and they took a while to adjust their bowling tactics to what worked.  A bit too long by anybody's expectation.  But 'trying too many things' is a mischaracterization of what happened.  That's all. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by sandeep

[Global.Baba]

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Are you seriously defining consistency to mean bowling the same 'full' length repeatedly? You can't expect them to do that, any int'l level bat will take that in a heartbeat.

No consistency  is to bowl full and in the corridor of uncertainty and focus on swing on a grassy pitch

 

Or

 

bowl short of length and fast into  the rib cage on fast on a bouncy track.

 

in this case it was neither. Lengths were bad and that can be excused but even their line was poor and that is when the theory of trying too much comes into place as they were looking for that one magic ball which happens when you get carried away on a pitch with juice.

 

The opening spell usually defines the game. It is not a net session to figure out the pitch for the rest of the game.

 

You probably understood me well enough in the last post itself so not sure why you are beating around the bush. Please add anything relevant or else move on

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Global.Baba

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I think you are starting with a pre-conceived notion that "they tried too many things" and then trying to fit the actual data to support your notion. As @rkt.india pointed out, the conditions weren't as helpful early on.  They did take a while to figure out the optimal length on the track, which was disappointing, but then again, they are making adjustments to conditions that are quite new to them.  

 

 

This pitch was new for everyone, even for Aussies.  This venue had one FC game before.

[rtmohanlal]

Not 'carried away' - it is actually  ' the performance range'  of our seam bowlers only. Only this much can be expected from bowlers who avg: very mediocre  in SENA. Except Bumrah, all has been very avg: in SENA. That's is the reason, I have always been for ' 2 seam bowlers + 2 spinners' , with the requisite that all these bowlers should be able to put AMAP runs on the board.

 

[Cricketics]

Ishant was struggling with control of seam and swing. He infact could not get his seam right as the he could not pitch in the right areas due to the exaggerated swing which Ishant wasn’t able to control in the start of the innings. Watch the replay of first 10 overs and you will see how Ishant’s deliveries were being collected down the leg by Pant and at times even Pant could not collect those.

 

 

 

Ishant then started reducing his speed and came to mid and low 120s to get his seam position right. We were finding our way to

in these conditons. Since Bumrah bowls way faster, he doesn’t get as much swing and hence did not have to worry about the swing.

 

The lower the pace of a bowler, the more swing you will get. Bowlers at Ishan’t speed will always have that as challenge compared to much quicker fast bowlers like Bumrah or Starc.. Thats wh6 the seam bowler like Ishant had problem controlling in his first spell.

 

 

[sandeep]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

This pitch was new for everyone, even for Aussies.  This venue had one FC game before.

I think the Aus bowlers will be quicker to identify the right lengths than we were.  It is what it is.  Not going to be overly harsh on them, but it was definitely a bit disappointing.  Biggest problem was Umesh's (expected) failure to keep things tight.  I really believe Jadeja could have been MoM on this wicket.  He would chipped in with a few runs, bowled a bunch of tight overs, and picked up crucial wickets.  

[rkt.india]

Just now, sandeep said:

I think the Aus bowlers will be quicker to identify the right lengths than we were.  It is what it is.  Not going to be overly harsh on them, but it was definitely a bit disappointing.  Biggest problem was Umesh's (expected) failure to keep things tight.  I really believe Jadeja could have been MoM on this wicket.  He would chipped in with a few runs, bowled a bunch of tight overs, and picked up crucial wickets.  

Aussies would have already seeing the game till now.  also pitch got harder and quicker from the second session onward.  In first session, Pant was at times gathering at shin height from Bumrah.

 

another most important thing regarding trying too much, i thought they did not try enough early on.  they saw grass and thought it will be a pitch like Capetown and they have to just put the ball and pitch will do the job which did not happen. 

 

[express bowling]

I think the opposite happened.

 

They were so afraid of getting carried away on a green pitch that they did not bowl with full effort.

 

Half the time, our pacers were just gently placing the ball there at medium pace ...  don't remember the last time I saw this from them in the last 4 years.